Rataan

Join Date 01/2007

DA: some observations from the peanut gallery

I've been playing DA pretty intensely since I was able to download it. Just some things I have noticed in no particular order:

The AI does appear to be better. I stepped down to challenging from tough, and while I am winning, the Korath are putting up a good fight.

Super abilities aren't quite as super as I thought they would be, which is probably a good thing. In my current game: the Korx have a poor economy in spite of being a super trader. The Korath haven't used any spore ships that I am aware of. The Altarions only had one player to call on when the Korath attacked them (me), and that won't win them the game. Heh.

Espionage appears to be largely dysfunctional. I never placed an agent that lasted more than a short time. Almost all were gone within three turns and I only got to the first espionage level with the Korath, and nowhere with the others. As time goes by, agents become awesomely expensive to the point where it doesn't make fiscal sense to continue pursuing them. I got the agent on every planet mega event and after paying thousands of bc's for dozens of turns and only getting rid of about 1/4 of them, it occured to me that saving up 2000 bc to liberate one bank every 5 - 10 turns wasn't likely to pay off in the long run. So most of the agents are going to stay right where they are. I've only produced about 15 agents total, and now producing them at a reasonable rate, say every five turns, is about as expensive as maintaining my entire wartime fleet. Maybe it is all map and option dependent, but espionage appears to me to be a money pit with almost negligible dividends.

Trade routes seem to bring in far less money than in DL. I found this surprising since many people on these boards were dissmissive of trade and I figured it would get an upgrade.

Money overall is harder to come by, and I think balance has been improved because of it. I was never able to amass the fortunes in DL that some have claimed on these boards, but it was easy to stay quite solvent with very little effort put into trade or financial improvements. In DA it takes considerably more effort.

The engine nerfing seems a mixed bag to me. It certainly slowed my ships down, but it slowed AI ships to a crawl. For the most part, it doesn't seem like the AI invests in engines at all now. I've destroyed scores of Korath fighters with 1 movement speed. They have protonic torpedoes II, but they apparently haven't even researched the first few engine techs that give you a free bonus to speed. In DL I saw many fast AI ships, even colony ships. Now I can dive into a swarm of AI ships with a fast 1 hp unarmed ship without fear. They will never get close enough to kill it, but several fleets will start moving toward it anyway. My opinion so far is that engine nerfing harmed the AI far more than it did me.

The asteroid fields don't seem to be a big deal even if you set them to common, which I did. Setting up the mines is time intensive and the techs to advance them aren't cheap. With all I have to research now, I haven't gotten past the second level, which I believe is only one tech. Enemy mines are sitting ducks for marauding ships, presumably accelerating the fall of losing civs. This is aggravated by the AI continuing to produce and field miners with enemy ships in their territory. Mines culture flip constantly.

I was intrigued when I heard that the tech tree was streamlined. In fact, the tech tree is much more complex with several new research branches, and all of the old techs intact, although the grouping setup certanly makes it look more streamlined. I think the new techs add a lot of depth to us 4x junkies, but to a novice it must have a formidable learning curve.

The new planet environments add a definite twist to the colonization phase, as do the addition of low PQ planets. Researching all of the enviroments will likely put you behind in critical areas, so choosing what to research becomes a delicate balancing act. The AI plays this part of the game very well. I took the super adapter ability and the Korath still out colonized me. The interesting thing is that a number of high PQ planets are uncolonized as I enter the end game, because they are deep in another civ's territory and that civ doesn't have the tech to colonize it.

Well, I applaud anyone who has read this far and any comments or corrections are welcome.

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I agree with some of your observations, but disagree with others.

First, the engine re-balancing really does seem to hurt the AI. Put the 8 points into getting plus 2 speed and then search up to warp drive and you are just about unstoppable. You will get all the anomalies, and your basic move 7-8 ships can out react the AIs move 1-2 ships. Add in Super Warrior and you can field some pretty fast first strike cargo hull fleets, use your speed to move in and kill, then retreat out of the AI's movement range so they never attack you.

Second, I disagree with you on the espionage... it is plenty powerful, maybe too powerful. I can't ever kick out a spy every five turns later on... I'm limited to spending 25% of my income towards spies. After the first fifty or so it starts to take several months for the next one no matter what I do. The trick to getting them to work is concentration, only hit one enemy at a time.
Because purchasing spies is on a curve, the more enemies you try to spy on the more you are at a disadvantage. Say you kick out 20 spies in a year, and each of your enemies kicks out only 6. If you concentrate all of your spying on one person, they can only neutralize a few of your spies, and you can completely shut down either their industry or research... sometimes both (numbers are there for illustration, you can't actually shut down anyone on a larger map with a meager 14 spies). But if you try and spy on three enemies, you will barely make any progress, even though they are not committing much of their economy to espionage. 18 of your spies will get killed by 6 cheaper spies from each opponent. However, successful espionage is so useful it almost feels broken, but the key is to take your enemies down one at a time.

Asteroid fields can become a big deal if you use a lot of spying, because it represents industrial points you can't shut down. However, I agree it is not worth using your own resources to create mining. The AI rarely hits you with enough spies that you need a secondary production source, and mines are easy to culture flip. Influence starbases build faster than upgraded asteroid mines, so steal your opponents work after they took the credits to create the "asteroid farms" for you.

I agree, the new colonization depth is excellent.

I also agree that trade routes seem to do less. I know in the previews for the game they said that now trade routes increase in value over time... but my last DL game I was able to get 600 per turn from trade, I've only once broken 200 per turn in DA. Either way, trade doesn't make enough of a difference for income, but because it effects what AIs think of you it is still a useful tool. Also, they further reduced the number of trade routes, making it even less effective. Trade tech used to give you +3 routes, now it only gives you +2

I must say I LOVE LOVE LOVE how the new combat system effects mixed fleets with one (huge) capital ship with supporting small and medium fighters. As long as you make your big guy mean enough that the enemy targets it, you can really smash through overwhelming odds. This is because even old, low tech fighters are now useful in groups, given that each shot reduces the enemy defense for the round. Those swarms of support fighters can now kick out some serious damage, so your high def/weap cap ship doesn't need to survive for many turns. And there is something just cool about watching this sort of fleet fight in the combat viewer.

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Excellent post, Rataan. Well thought out. I agree with most of your observations. There are a few, however, that I feel I must address.

Espionage appears to be largely dysfunctional.

Espionage can be one of your most powerful tools, if you learn how, when, and where to use it. A single spy, used wisely, can do as much damage as a fleet of battle cruisers. A cadre of them can bring the most powerful civ to it's knees.

Trade routes seem to bring in far less money than in DL.

In DA, the value of trade routes grows over time. Initially, they may be worth a bit less than they used to be, but if you choose your routes wisely, and hold onto them, they can bring in surprising amounts of revenue.

The asteroid fields don't seem to be a big deal

They are actually one of the better 'deals' in the game. Three techs, and one single ship can give a boost of 60 IU to the planet of your choice. Not bad, IMHO.

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On the original posters points:

Super abilities aren't quite as super as I thought they would be, which is probably a good thing. In my current game: the Korx have a poor economy in spite of being a super trader. The Korath haven't used any spore ships that I am aware of. The Altarions only had one player to call on when the Korath attacked them (me), and that won't win them the game. Heh.

It's interesting that you mention the Altarians and the Korx here. As a Korx player I have moved up a difficulty level from DL simply by pumping out freighters from the start to make my economy unstoppable and essentially make myself too popular diplomatically for anyone to declare war. The AI doesn't seem to be able to respond to this if its done right. Having said that in my last game I got cocky and attacked the Altarians who immediately brought in Torians and Drath, that 3 way alliance ended up crushing me. I guess it depends on context - without other good races out there the Altarians ability becomes essentially useless.

And something Mistralok said:

I have mixed feelings about espionage. I'm fully prepared to believe that I simply haven't mastered it yet, but at present it seems to me that the increasing amount you spend on it would be more effective on trade, research, warships, pretty much anything. I think it might also be a case of misjudgment on my part - my hopes for espionage were for another path to victory, to compete with research, conquest, influence etc. The somewhat more modest espionage model used perhaps works best as a supplement to other strategies.

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Hi!

Good points you make!

The engine nerfing seems a mixed bag to me. It certainly slowed my ships down, but it slowed AI ships to a crawl.

Exactly! I used to have 1-3 engines on my warships, and 3-5 on transports, now I'm using one on warships and 2-4 Ion engines on transports. Yes, Ion engines, because the're small and cheap and I usually have lots of space on cargo hull. However I'm only at the fifth campaign mission and haven't researched anything over Warp engines, so sandbox mode may be different. But the fastest ship I had seen so far was a DL's scout speed 10. Other AI players have warships with speeds 2-3 (if Warp researched), or troop transports with speed 4. I can literarily dance around anything they put in space with my usuall speed 4-7. Like in old GalCiv 1.0x days.

I've only produced about 15 agents total, and now producing them at a reasonable rate, say every five turns, is about as expensive as maintaining my entire wartime fleet.

Exactly my thoughts again! IMO those costs should be revisited. However a player should have some spies on stock. If anyone seriously targets him, he will not have them to defend himself. OTOH forcing your opponent to spend lots of money to catch your spies is also a viable way to weaken his empire.

Money overall is harder to come by, and I think balance has been improved because of it.

Yeah, very true. At least in campaign at masochistic it feels so. I've never been so broke in any previous game. Everything is slowed down considerably. Maybe the reason is in the campaing the HW starts with only 1B pop, not 8B as in sandbox mode.

The asteroid fields are actually one of the better 'deals' in the game.

Erm... depends. I never got out much of them (an equivalent of a factory on average, or two in best case), but loved killing those of my opponents. And DreadLords loved killing my miner ships. They were the next target on their priority list, just after my starbases. Without proper defense are IMO those asteroid fields just a small bonus, that can go away with a blink of an eye with a single attack-1 weapon. IMO they should have by default some 5 hit points, 1 attack and 1 defense. Each higher level should add something to that.

I was intrigued when I heard that the tech tree was streamlined.

What I expected to see was a straight line from basic tech to most advanced, with branches for subtypes. Well, idea for a new thread.

BR, Iztok

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On the original posters points:

I have mixed feelings about espionage. I'm fully prepared to believe that I simply haven't mastered it yet, but at present it seems to me that the increasing amount you spend on it would be more effective on trade, research, warships, pretty much anything. I think it might also be a case of misjudgment on my part - my hopes for espionage were for another path to victory, to compete with research, conquest, influence etc. The somewhat more modest espionage model used perhaps works best as a supplement to other strategies.

I agree it is the amount I have to spend that is the problem. In the mid game on a huge map when I'm producing about 4,000 bc per turn, spending 10% on espionage is a very big deal. That same money would support 20 decked out warships, enough to militarily crush most enemies. Sure, neutralizing their manufacturing capital would be nice too, but even if I manage to shut down every capital they have, it doesn't necessarily destroy them, whereas sending over fleets of juggernaut ships to shoot down everything that moves probably would.

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I'm not crazy about espionage. It's too expensive and I have to use agents to nullify agents on my worlds. I never can spy on others, and they get nullified far too fast to be worth it. I like the concept, but I think it's not really well balanced right now. 8/

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I agree when it comes to the agents. Now it is possible that I just don't know how to use them yet, but it feels like I am not getting much bang for my buck. Generally I just keep a handful on stand-by in case I have to neutralize some on my planets.

Asteroids on the other hand, I love! Yeah it takes a while in terms of research and construction, but a planet with two or three mining complexes + a manufacturing capitol and a few factories becomes insanely useful at producing ships! Not to mention that it just gets better and better as the mining complexes get upgraded!

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Excellent posts all.

Money is harder to come by, so even if the trade routes have been nerfed, they're still essential to work ( unless playing the early warmonger on smaller maps ). Though the espionage can be seen as a mixed bag by some, I think it's well implemented and can be potent - especially when you put one agent after another on a rival's Manufacturing/Economic/Technological Capital or Anti Matter Power Plant.

The new pacing of the game really shows the hard work Brad and his team put to heightened the GC2 franchise.

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I've found spies useful in varying degrees, depending on the stage of the game. From the beginning to mid-stages, when I'm lagging behind on the research curve, I spend them as soon as I obtain them. Most get neutralized with 3-4 turns of placement, but occasionally one seems to make a "breakthrough" and my espionage level on that race is upgraded.

From the mid to later stages of the game, when stealing techs is not as vital, I stockpile them. Useful for counter-espionage (I've not used the improvement yet, I don't see its value, really), for disabling morale improvements on planets I'm trying to culturally turn, and, lastly, when I'm ready to go to war, I like to have a big reserve of them, then I hit the enemy's income improvements all at once, and keep pouring them on.

I also got hit with the Spy mega event and having a pool of counter-agents was invaluable.

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Asteroids may not have much effect on the mega-factory industrial worlds, but they can really help a planet that doesn't have as much production as it needs. I've seen build times on my (minimally industrialized) cash worlds and research worlds cut by a quarter or more just by diverting a few asteroids over to them.

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One benefit to agents not immediately obvious is that if you place agents on his planets, he has to spend espionage nullifying you, rather than you having to spend espionage nullifying him. You're going to have to counter-espionage anyway--might as well do it on his turf, not yours.

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It would be nice, to be honest, to have an automated alternative espionage system similar to the original games.

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Hi!

if you place agents on his planets, he has to spend espionage nullifying you, rather than you having to spend espionage nullifying him.

Yes, in a duel. But what will you do, when there comes after you a third, and fourth, and fifth player, each one with his own spies, and you spent your cheap ones already?

BR, Iztok

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espionage. i have the same initial reactions. as many of the people who've commented on the subject so far. i think we all got so used to the old system that the new one feel draconian, especially taken alongside the lesser supply of money.

but i think several good points have been made. the espionage is much more effective when used in concentration against a single opponent and in critical situations.

i think what i'd like to see is a series of techs that'd lower the cost curve. if spies are getting too expensive, then research a new level of spy training to lower their cost again. i don't know if the espionage bonus affects spy cost or spy effectiveness, but if it does affect cost it'd be easy to mod.

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I didn't read all the posts... but in regards to asteroids you can set your miner to automatically do all the work. Therefore, no extra time from you, yet you still get asteroid bonues as your miner runs around on his own.

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Yes, in a duel. But what will you do, when there comes after you a third, and fourth, and fifth player, each one with his own spies, and you spent your cheap ones already?

If multiple AI's gang up on you, then you're screwed either way, whether you pre-emptive strike one of them or not. You might as well fight the battle on one of the AIs' turf as much as you can.

The risk comes in the possibility that maybe the AI you're attacking was never going to attack you, and then you get back-doored by the AI you didn't attack. Now that's a problem.

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[moved to a more relevant post topic]

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That same money would support 20 decked out warships

Yes, that's true. But you have to remember that military ships have a maintenance cost that is approximately 3% of their original cost (in industrial units). That is, a ship that cost 100 IUs will take approximately 3 billion credits each week to maintain. A large fleet is a serious drain on your economy. That money could be spent elsewhere. Your spies just sit there waiting; little neutron bombs in fedoras. Over time, the best 'bang for the buck' in the game.

I never got out much of them (an equivalent of a factory on average, or two in best case)

A single asteroid field of three mines can yield 60 resource points per turn. Now, if 1 resource point = 1 industrial point, then that is the equivalent of 5 industrial sectors. This can turn a low pq into something respectable, or, with a couple of them, turn a planet into an industrial giant.

So, is this by design...do they not want you to be able get esionage info on more than a couple races the entire game?

I'm sure it is. Espionage is more powerful now, but it is also more precious. You have to pick and choose carefully where and when you use it.

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I like a lot of the responses to this thread, and people make some good points.

Espionage is very different, and at first it is hard to adjust. Previously, you could easily wage espionage warfare on all of your enemies, but all it gave you was information and a random tech every now and again.

Now, it is very difficult to run espionage on 9 other empires, but if you stick to one (maybe two) you not only get information and random techs, you can literally shut down an entire empire. Knock out all banks and VR centers and farms, and you can send your enemy into an economic tailspin, made worse by the fact that they will start spending money on espionage to try and fight you. If you hit one enemy with 30-50 spies, you can often shut down almost all research and/or production... and if they manage to pump out one or two spies they haven't even touched you. Of course this is easiest with Krynn who can start out with +100% espionage.

Then, I like to go about culture flipping the enemy. You are not the aggressor, so get no penalties for being a warlike nation. If you just keep building a military (or have a spin control center), no one will be motivated to go to war with you anyway. But it gets even worse!

Your espionage/culture flip "target" can really be manipulated by you. I like to start out by giving a civ my research treaty in exchange for all their cash (you are trying to crash the economy, after all). Then start taking planets by culture flipping, and with their increased research from your treaty, you will steal almost any tech they research (with 30+ spies on their worlds). And THEN, after you culture flip the last planet, you get your research treaty back to use as bait for your next target. You never fire a shot, and can wipe out enemy after enemy for the low cost of only 25% of your economy. That leaves you the other 75% to research/build/wage wars, whatever. This strategy can work fast, even if the opponent has 20-30 worlds... which is why it almost feels broken to me.

A better illustration of the difficulty of going against multiple enemies is to break down example costs. If you build 20 spies that cost 1,2,3,4,5,...,20 you will spend 210 on 20 spies. If each opponent spends only 1,2,3,4,5 then they only spend 15. If you go against 4 enemies, your 210 of spending is neutralized by only 60 "enemy" credits. If you concentrate on one enemy, their 15 credits of spending will only dent your spy army, so you can always keep them down and control them.

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Your espionage/culture flip "target" can really be manipulated by you. I like to start out by giving a civ my research treaty in exchange for all their cash (you are trying to crash the economy, after all). Then start taking planets by culture flipping, and with their increased research from your treaty, you will steal almost any tech they research (with 30+ spies on their worlds). And THEN, after you culture flip the last planet, you get your research treaty back to use as bait for your next target. You never fire a shot, and can wipe out enemy after enemy for the low cost of only 25% of your economy. That leaves you the other 75% to research/build/wage wars, whatever. This strategy can work fast, even if the opponent has 20-30 worlds... which is why it almost feels broken to me.

Well, it is a little broken, but it'd be easy to fix. Civs that you "flip" worlds from should hold it against you. No one else should regard it as an act of aggression, but the civ that lost the world certainly should. I notice, after a world flips, that you lose the "our alarming influence" diplo modifier, for example. Relations tend to improve after a flip as opposed to before, and that's just silly.

Generally speaking one of the things I'd like to see is some stronger negative diplo effects for non-military conquest strategies. As it stands it's often too easy to sneak away with a non-confrontational win while the AI is still regarding you as a friend or ally.

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I honestly could not agree more. Almost every time i play with the "culture flip" strategy, the game almost feels to easy. Like im cheating by taking their worlds and them like me more after the fact. i think cultural starbases in some one else’s territory should really make them mad, if it is obvious that im trying to "flip" that planet(ex: if i have more then 200 culture points pouring out of it). but thats just cause id really like to see a more territorial game, were neutral or angry civs get piss that your simply trespassing. however thats really a different topic for a different post

basically i agree that for relations to improve after a flip is just silly.

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Hi!

A single asteroid field of three mines can yield 60 resource points per turn.

Yeah, IF you manage to build all infrastructure. I have only a limited experience with them, playing campaign mission 5. I've never been able to build even the first level on a bit more remote asteroids, as DreadLords' fighters kept destroying my miners. After losing ~5 of them (I could not tell them to move away while they were building the mine), I decided to quit producing them until I deal with DLs. And that's a completely differrent bussines as I thought it will be, as regardless of amount of damage I deal to their ships I can not destroy them!

BR, Iztok

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Well, it is a little broken, but it'd be easy to fix. Civs that you "flip" worlds from should hold it against you. No one else should regard it as an act of aggression, but the civ that lost the world certainly should.

If culture flipping worlds could build up as negative diplomacy points (as seen in the race relations summaries) then it would represent Civs becoming increasingly more paranoid towards you to the point of doing something about it.

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If culture flipping worlds could build up as negative diplomacy points (as seen in the race relations summaries

Actually, it does. Even the potential of doing so will make the civ in question give you the 'stink eye'.

Civs becoming increasingly more paranoid towards you to the point of doing something about it.

In every influence type game that I have played, when a civ sees that it is in danger of losing their last few planets, then they will declare war. These have always been the 'going out in a blaze of glory' type affairs, though. I wouldn't mind seeing a tweak that allows the AI to recognize the threat a bit earlier in the process.

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Actually, it does. Even the potential of doing so will make the civ in question give you the 'stink eye'.

Actually, while the potential for doing so results in a negative diplo modifier (in the form of the "we know what you're doing" - in the diplo screen) once the world has flipped that modifier goes away. I've never seen any sign that relations suffer as a result of culture flipping worlds. If this is happening that's very good, but I'm confused as to why I haven't observed it in my own games. You mention the AI declaring war when it's down to it's last few worlds with this type of strategy. I've yet to have that happen, but it's exactly the kind of thing I want to see.

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