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Thoughts and analysis on TA as of beta 4

aars
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Wyndstar
Sole Soul
Join Date 12/2007
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Reply #26 January 29, 2008 8:29:24 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
@Wyndstar

Pertaining to the Thalans not building over previous buildings, that's a problem common to the AI of all races, as you well know.

I (we?) can only hope it gets fixed at some point, but I'm not sure how much coding that would take.

Incidentally, that would (or at least should) also fix the loophole of setting a build queue and giving the planet to the AI so they do the building.
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Wyndstar
Starstriker1
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Reply #27 January 30, 2008 1:43:55 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Wyndstar, I notice that most of your criticism of the Thalan is based on how the AI plays them, which is severely sub-optimal (to say the least). My own strategy when playing the Thalans is basically this:

1) Build the stock buildings
2) Crank out a few colony ships and expand, but keep it conservative: planets tend to be money sinks for the Thalans until they get developed, at which point they are quite powerful
3) Keep the focus mainly on research. Rushing for economic techs and research buildings is top priority here... if you get basic economy buildings going, you can build overtop of them later with more useful buildings and collect the taxes in the short term.
4) If tech trading is on, try to barter for "industrial revolution" and "traditional research". The buildings are weak, but they're a nice stop-gap solution for the short term, allowing you to kick your research up.
5) Focus on getting research buildings first and foremost, and make sure you get to at least L2 before you start pursuing other research opportunities, or you'll feel the sting with maintainence (a good reason to have built a bunch of economy buildings at this point). The reason you want to do this is to be able to speed your way to L3 production once you start constructing infrastructure.

The key is keeping a healthy economy going so that you can afford the maintainence AND the production costs. Once the Thalans get over the initial hurdle of having no production buildings (which is much less severe when tech trading is enabled) they can develop some very competitive technologies very quickly. The first few steps of their tech victory, their very powerful HP expansion components, their ethics bonus techs, and their quickly developed weaponry make them very effective.

For the AI to be effective with this strategy, they'd need to understand how to get their hands on stopgap industrial and research techs. They'd also need to be able to redesign planets, blitz for the high level research and production techs, and understand the opportunity cost of wasting money on embassies just because they're marginally better than nothing.

I find the strategy to be a ton of fun, even during those tense early years, but have no idea if it'd hold up in the kind of difficulty levels you play on. I play only on "Tough" because I hate playing against cheating AI (or micromanaging enough to be able to beat it at those levels). Occasionally, I'll kick it up one notch, but I haven't had to do that since the TA beta started.
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Wyndstar
Wyndstar
Join Date 06/2006
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Reply #28 January 30, 2008 2:01:09 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Yeah, some fair points brought up here. Some of my criticisms of the Thalans bring in broader AI holes which you can exploit with anyone. My point here is that these long extant AI holes really hurt the current Thalans. At least when the Drengin don't rebuild over tiles they are already filled with slave pits so they are useful. The Thalans are the only AI stuck with worlds filled with Embassies.

@ Starstricker - good points. I can use the Thalans fine up to Masochistic. But at suicidal I:

I played three suicidal games with the new Thalans and was never able to survive through the second year... it always took less than 50 turns for my civ to be wiped.


Sorry about quoting myself. The problem is you need to really get out of the gate hard at the top levels or you are dead... for the player or for an AI. This is possible with every race except the Thalans. Its a single player game, it doesn't have to be balanced. But I wish the Thalans would have equal footing at top difficulty levels... which is specifically where I think they fail.

~ Wyndstar
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Wyndstar
PeskyFly
Join Date 08/2007
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Reply #29 January 30, 2008 1:21:20 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums

The Thalans have apparently decided to try and kill me with embassies. A sneaky plan on their part.


Best line ever...




Who knows. Maybe if the old, mega-tourism income from on of the previous betas were still there, then those embassies would serve as economy buildings. But I guess the AI is just obsessed that it must build something, anything.
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Wyndstar
DisneyDestroyer
Join Date 07/2007
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Reply #30 January 30, 2008 2:00:44 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I like the idea of making the Hyperion Matrix, in a weaker state, available on all planets.

Another idea: I think the bugs shouldn't have the penalty (or reduced penalty) for increased population on the world. That would also make it more feasible to have multiple reduced-hyperion-matrix buildings, especially with the upgrades. Toss a cookie to the bug half, willya???

Also, I think the Thalan should have reduced building costs and a negative starting economic rating. Shrink down their entire economy related to others. Everything is cheaper, but they they don't have any money so it doesnt' really matter. Seems more in the self-sufficient-because-they're-from-the-future-and-don't-fit-in concept.
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Wyndstar
OvermindPrime
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Reply #31 January 30, 2008 2:12:14 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Since this thread is on Thoughts and Analysis of TA, I am aghast there has not been more mention of the change in the starbase tech tree that requires full research of defensive techs for the starbases themselves before allowing even the most minor of ship support techs for military starbases. I particularly enjoy looking at games as a large chessboard and fighting out military battles tactically. When doing so, the strategic and tactical advantage of military starbases many times swing the balance - and add incredible fun to the gameplay. Not everyone is stuck in trading/diplomacy tracks on this game. Because so much research is required to first research full defenses for starbases, often the ship designs advance to the point where military starbases lose their strategic and tactical value. In other words, you could remove military starbases from the game, and the effect would be so minimal no-one would even notice. I happen to like military starbases, and so want them to actually be useful and useable. Can anyone back me up on this? The starbase defenses do need to be broken out into a parallel track in TA as they were in GalcivII and DA. If this is not done, military starbases are practically removed from the game due to uselessness.
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Wyndstar
Wyndstar
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Reply #32 January 30, 2008 2:22:40 PM
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OvermindPrime -

I agree I think. In reply #1 in this thread I said:
Some of the new tech trees have some interesting choices (Terrans can't get Starbase projection I until after starbase fortification III.


And actually, NO ONE can get the starbase projection techs until after starbase fort III. I don't really like this change as it removes simple weapon boosting early game. Also, once you decide to research starbase tech the first thing you learn how to do is turn them into AI grinding death traps.... with huge stats early game just because you want to add +1 beam to your tiny hulls.

As to would people notice? I would notice if they were removed because I use military starbases almost exclusively for their +speed/-speed effects.

Still, I liked having minor weapon boosts as an option for early game out of military starbases. Or at the very least make it an option for some of the races. We will have to see what Stardock ultimately decides.

~ Wyndstar
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Wyndstar
Sole Soul
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Reply #33 January 30, 2008 2:54:07 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Agreed. In DA (and DL), it was easy enough to "rush" Starbase Fort III relatively early so you could have 30/30/30 5/5/5 or 30/30/30 15/15/15 starbases (since the defensive modules that Fort III provides require the preceding one, but the weapons ones do not) for only 7 or 10 constructors. Early game, when everyone's running around with 3-5 attack fighters with no defense, that's just obscene. Even Starbase Fort II would give you 10/10/10 5/5/5 or 10/10/10 15/15/15 under the same circumstances, which is still fairly ridiculous.

But with the tree changes made in TA, not only is it still roughly as easy, but you're basically forced to do the research for the attack/defense modules just to get your +2 speed/-3 enemy speed, etc. All in all, it makes early to midgame fighters useless.

I would actually support the Fortification tree starting AFTER Starbase Conquest Strategy (or the appropriate EOL tech for starbase modules; I haven't played every TA race yet)...however, I can see how that would be taken as a further "nerf" of starbases, and they really aren't too powerful in the first place. Such a change would in essence make all of the Fortification techs, as well as their modules, completely useless. That's not what I'm going for, but I don't like the current state of them in TA, either.
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Wyndstar
Starstriker1
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Reply #34 January 30, 2008 9:08:41 PM
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I'd always had a bit of a soft spot for military boosting modules. They were a fantastic way to defend small empires in the slowest tech settings. However, between the tech speed being DRAMATICALLY sped up, and the techs being all but unreachable without having to plow through very large research projects first, the tactic is utterly unviable now.
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Wyndstar
thehandofzarquon
Join Date 09/2006
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Reply #35 January 30, 2008 10:49:37 PM
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I would actually support the Fortification tree starting AFTER Starbase Conquest Strategy (or the appropriate EOL tech for starbase modules


I support dropping the Fortification techs entirely and move the modules to the Weapon/Defense techs.
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Wyndstar
Sole Soul
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Reply #36 January 30, 2008 11:49:32 PM
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I would actually support the Fortification tree starting AFTER Starbase Conquest Strategy (or the appropriate EOL tech for starbase modules


I support dropping the Fortification techs entirely and move the modules to the Weapon/Defense techs.


Great idea; in fact, probably better than mine.
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Wyndstar
PeskyFly
Join Date 08/2007
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Reply #37 February 1, 2008 8:33:48 AM
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But with the tree changes made in TA, not only is it still roughly as easy, but you're basically forced to do the research for the attack/defense modules just to get your +2 speed/-3 enemy speed, etc. All in all, it makes early to midgame fighters useless.


What? You get speed-changing modules from propulsion techs, not SB Projection techs. AFAIK, various Warp Drive technologies give you Stellar Wake, Inverse Tractor Beam and Warp Field Disruptor modules, while HyperWarp gives you the Interdiction Beam. I don't know if this has been changed for TA though.

IMO, Military Starbases are most useful for their speed boosters & paralysis weapons. The Yor, when building a Military SB inside their own territory, can immediately stop any enemy ship right where they are using a single Warp Field Disruptor(provided the Yor still get those modules, of course).
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Wyndstar
Sole Soul
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Reply #38 February 1, 2008 6:11:32 PM
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My bad. I was trying to make the point pertaining to small weapons/defense boosts and got sidetracked.

As far as "immediately stop", the -speed from starbases is applied before the speed cap, when the speed cap is applied at all (obviously the speed cap doesn't apply to a 2pc/wk ship, or even a 3pc/wk ship, without +speed techs)-at least in my testing. I can only assume your "any" remark has to do with A) the AI not normally building fast ships and stacking military starbases to have a minimum of -12 speed (which is, in most cases, much more than the AI ever builds). The point being, a cap of 3 and a -2 to speed does NOT mean all enemy ships will be speed 1. Try it some time.

The Yor still get warp field disruptor, inverse tractor beam, and stellar wake. No interdiction beam due to not getting hyperwarp.
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Wyndstar
JustinSane4
Join Date 04/2007
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Reply #39 February 21, 2008 5:50:24 AM
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The Thalan are so weak, would it imbalance them to let them build one of the current Hyperion Matrix on each planet? Given how research intensive their tree is and that they can not ever build the MCC, I don't think this would make them too strong in human hands personally. They still have crippling Diplomacy and Pop growth issues and a weak economy. They need a powerful advantage somewhere other than the end of the tech tree to offset it. You could also add a significant upkeep to them as you suggested, though I'd say a bit lower than 50 since you can never fully fund research and production simultaneously. I think 25 upkeep would be enough to keep them from being overpowered as a one per planet building, considering how long it takes to get economic techs and the population growth problems they have.
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Wyndstar
Sole Soul
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Reply #40 February 21, 2008 8:12:51 AM
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Short answer: Yes.

(Note: You said "current".)

Hyperion Matrix costs 50BC-but as it has an industrial component, it counts as a factory, which means it costs 12BC for the Thalans with Super Hive. This is only a 90BC rush buy (or 80BC via the first lease option at 60 + 4 * 5) without any PurchaseNowReductions, and if you are for some reason running 57% or greater social, it's a one turn build on a new colony anyway with the default +33 social (and military, but that's irrelevant for our purposes).

Thalans with a 1-per-planet Hyperion Matrix, at least as it is now, would be immensely powerful-beyond how powerful they were in DA, even. Introducing a maintenance cost makes this more difficult to maintain, but, as always, it's all about getting ahead. If you can research your entire tech tree in 6 months (an exaggeration, possibly, but bear with me), who cares if you're running a massive deficit? There's also the point that while it would be a one-per-planet building, you wouldn't be forced to build one on each and every planet, so you should in theory be able to keep yourself out of debt.

Admittedly, the first couple of turns would be slow, up until maybe the second month, while you're still trying to get enough colony ships out of the gate to find places to put your Hyperion Matrices. But after month three, it's really game over.

-

I don't really have a problem with the Hyperion Matrix being a unique building, though the food bonus makes no sense given the effective population limits of DA & TA. Ideally, you either build it on your homeworld, or get lucky and have a PQ26 one turn away first turn.

I would suggest that it either stay as unique and get a boost to capacity (though not food), or that it become a one-per-planet and have reduced capacity. Doubling the capacity to 32/32 over the current 16/16 would serve to make the Thalans much more competitive. As there would only be one of them, the question then arises whether or not it's even relevant if the cost is increased, ideally to 100 if at all (or 25 for the Thalans, which would result in a 204BC non-leased rush buy). Alternatively, it could be (for instance) halved to 8/8 and be a one-per planet.

The more I think about it, the more I think they need both a galactic achievement Matrix and one-per-planet matrices that aren't as powerful. Maybe the food bonus could be reduced as well-4MT would give 20B homeworld pop vs 10B colony pop.

In any case, if the Matrix is merely doubled in capacity, that alone would make the Thalans playable, though not necessarily good.

Just my 2BC.
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Wyndstar
JustinSane4
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Reply #41 March 16, 2008 12:46:24 AM
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I've given the Beta 5a Thalan a shot in a game today, and I think given a very narrow range of game set-up options, they can be comptetitive. Sole Soul, I agree that you are right that one per planet, even with a fairly high upkeep, would in fact be imbalancing.

A brief AAR (mid-action report really):

The game I'm in is a abundant-all suicidal medium with 8 minors and Altarians, Iconians, Arceans, Korx and Yor as opponents. I intentionally avoided races with diplomatic bonuses (to minimize the Thalan diplomacy penalty) and races that are aggressive early, specifically the Korath and Drengin (to minimize the danger of the slow start). Tech trading is on and research is set to very fast. My race points were spent on +30 econ, +10 morale, +25 luck, +25 creativity and +10 weapons and I took the universalist party, which I believe suits the Thalan perfectly since they need all the pop growth they can get.

My starting planet had only a morale bonus. Not great. I did have a pq17 close, so I made that my first priority. It happened to have a +300% industry tile, so I built the Hyperion Matrix there along with the +50 planetary morale wonder. The +25 econ wonder went on my home world. In the colony rush I ended up with a total of 6 planets and a morale resource. The other empires had between 12 and 20 planets each.

As to my geographic position, Thala was a few tiles away from the southwest edge of the map (more south than west). I had the Arceans to my east, Yor to the northeast but further away, Altarians to the direct north, Korx to the west and Iconians to the northwest.

My first research priority was the universal translator, so that I could trade technologies. I had hoped to get to Diplomatic Translators in time to build it, but the Altarians got there quite quickly. The Thalans start with a decent mix of technologies, so I was able to trade for some important early techs such as the econ tech that gives trade centers and +10 econ, xeno labs, planetary improvements, laser 1 along with beam weapon theory and space weapons, space militarization (the most important of all of them probably, since the Thalans desperately need recruiting centers), space defenses (which offers +10 defense and isn't in the Thalan tech tree), trade and a few others. I made early contact with several of the minors, and that was vital for tech trading purposes early game.

My next research priority was Xeno Ethics. Since the Thalan do not have concepts of malice in their tech tree, I felt that to achieve a decent economy I needed morale high enough to have a decent tax rate while still maintaining 100% approval (which means going neutral for the +15% base morale bonus). This is an expensive tech, so I put research to the lowest level that would still give a time to completition and kept it there while I was expanding, counting on creativity to eventually come through for me. Eventually, it did.

I built the Harmony Crystals on my p17 with the hyperion matrix on a +300% industry square, my economic capital on my homeworld, and then the restraunt of eternity on the industry planet (mostly for extra tourism income, since money was a little tight). While all this was building, my other planets were building trade centers (with the exception of one world with a +100% research bonus, which got a xeno lab).

Once all this was done building, it was time for my usual strategy: Blitz my nearest neighbor (so long as that neighbor is not equipped to defend itself). I went to 100% research and researched up to medium hulls (which creativity got for me). I built Xianthium Plating on my industry planet, and then switched back to 100% research to planetary invasion. In the Thalan tech tree, advanced transport modules come directly after planetary invasion, so I grabbed that as well.

The Thalan have really weak ground combat techs (which is a significant problem with the race). I'd traded for war colleges, which gives +5 soldiering and +1 logistics, from a minor race, and researched basic logistics. The remaining problem was knocking out the defender, which was using beams. I caught a break then: The galactic senate voted my empire as the home for a galactic prison, which doubles the industrial output of your highest industry world. After I traded for xeno industrial theory and built my industrial capital, my industrial world now had close to 400 military production/turn. I'd traded for advanced deflectors and built a couple of medium fighters with one laser and several advanced deflectors.

I was able to conquer Altaria with a fleet of 2 transports with 2000 troops each using information warfare. If I had been unable to take Altaria, it would really have hurt. As it was, I was successful and got the Diplomatic Translators. The Iconians of course declared war on me when I declared war on the Altarians, but they were slow to develop a military. I had traded planetary invasion to most of the minors as well as to every major with the exception of the Altarians. I was able to get the Arceans to declare war on the Yor, got a few research treaties and plugged a few more holes in the Thalan tech tree.

From then, it was pretty clear sailing to the present time. I rolled over the Altarians, agreed to a peace treaty when they had 2 planets remaining in exchange for all their tech and some cash, and am currently taking Iconian worlds. I've got around 25 planets. Once the Thalan get rolling, picking up techs, industry and research capacity from conquest, they seem pretty strong. I got the combat tech that gives tir-quan training from an Iconian world I invaded, built that, got the tech that gives aphrodisiac from the peace settlement with the Altarians, and built that as well. At this point (october 1st of the second year) I'm completely certain I'm going to win (if I choose to play this game out).

So are the Thalan ok? Well, only given a good start, a carefully selected group of opponents, carefully chosen galaxy settings at start up, many minor races, tech trading on, creativity, neutral alignment, and a close neighbor that can be caught before they build a meaningful military. I still think they are the weakest race in Twilight. I don't think they are as weak as I had previously believed.

One thing that would help them is if they were given back the +25 starting econ they had in DA. I also believe that there is no longer any reason for them to have 8 race points instead of 10 at race design. I don't know as it is possible to make them viable with tech trading off. It would also be helpful to them if the diplomacy penalty was not so severe and they had better ground combat technologies. In particular, space marines or tidal disruption would really be nice. I have no idea why they do not have planetary defense, either.
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Wyndstar
Notger
Join Date 04/2006
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Reply #42 March 18, 2008 8:07:38 AM
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Wyndstar, having played the Thalans, I agree to everything you wrote. Though 50BC upkeep really is a kick in the groin, when the research tree for your new matrizes stays as slow as the old one.
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