Fall of a GC2 Titan » Forum Post by KzintiPatriarch

Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

Quoting IztokBitenc,

reply 50

Hi!

Very long ago I already proposed to remove scoring from GC. Because scoring promotes competition, and quite usually playing a score game for fun devolves into playing score sistem for more points. What we now have here is just the last stage of this: the last die-hards arguing about something no one else cares about.

Gentlebeings, you're throwing around big words and accusations for a long-dead issue. Do a reality check, and start caring for something that really matters. If this is what really matters, then I feel sorry for you.

BR, Iztok

Iztok, good to hear from you.

In essence you're saying pretty much what DethAdder said when he said that we're all cheaters because by concentrating on score we've twisted the game into something that it was never intended to be.

At the time KP said that there were large elements of truth in that statement and in all honesty I have to agree. However, on the other hand score and the Metaverse *has* been at least one of the many different ways to play the game and while I can understand that there are many people for which this holds no attraction you need to understand that for at least a few it does hold a certain attraction and whether that attraction is for good or ill is probably less important than the fact that it just is.

I have never looked down on folks that play the game just for fun and the score be damned, in fact I have often envied their ability to do so. I have never assumed that someone is not in some way a "good" player just because they could care less about score. In return all I've asked is the same, that just because I and a few like me are in fact concentrated on score does not make us bad players or even bad people. It's just the way we play and find interest in the game.

So while to you this may all seem like the last few die-hards arguing about stuff no one else cares about please allow us to argue about something about which *we* still care about.

Do you remember when we both were still playing in the Metaverse League right around the time that the concept of ARC was discovered? Do you remember who you PM'ed about your concerns about this practice? And do you recall that I took your concerns to the League and the community in general and argued essentially in agreement with you against the whole idea of ARC? We lost that argument but at least it was openly discussed and brought to the attention of Stardock and only after there was no negative response from Cari or Kryo or anyone else in authority was it deemed acceptable.

At least at that point you felt that it was something worth arguing about and while you may no longer feel that way hopefully you can understand that some people still do and respect their choice of play style just as they respect your choice of play style.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

But Mumblefratz (or others) try to prove me wrong. I mean, just start a game with a full 9 DL setup - and then try to make the most of it by going all-lab and tech-brokering their money to you, then invest this money as good as you can. And then see, where it will take you - believe me, nowhere near my scores. Nowhere.

I have no intention of dedicating 6 to 8 weeks of my limited free time playing a style of game I have no desire to play in some attempt to "prove" you or anyone else wrong.

As I tried to say above I simply felt that it was somehow "wrong" to play against Dread Lord opponents and the more I discovered about it the stronger I felt that way. If you can't see how I would look at the progression of your scores starting with less than 200K ZYW's prior to using Dread Lord opponents going to a 687K ZYW with using Dread lord opponents only 2 games later then I don't know what else to say.

Now you can certainly say that Dread Lord opponents weren't *all* that was going on during that time and that there were in fact other things that perhaps contributed to that scoring increase even more than Dread Lords but I had no way of knowing that to be the case. At the time you could not discuss it with me due to "empire secret" and KP was perhaps too busy with his new house to give me the time of day but the bottom line is I can only go by what I saw and what it appeared to me was that the use of Dread Lord opponents easily tripled or quadrupled your score. I don't know how anyone else given the knowledge of things that I had at the time could conclude any differently.

So OK now you say that Dread Lord opponents are a secondary choice at best and you can easily beat the 687K ZYW and 4 year 2.2M without using DL opponents. If so then I say great. Perhaps I'll try to match that or perhaps I'll just give up the game entirely but at least I won't feel like I'm forced to play in a way I had no desire to play (i.e. Dread Lord opponents) just to be able to compete.

So I guess if DL opponents are a secondary choice at best the bottom line is that there is no reason to use them and everyone is now in agreement. Both Kryo and KP have stated that Dread Lord opponents should not be used. I've stated that I have no desire to play against Dread Lord opponents and you've stated that you can do better without them.

In the MV League we all trusted each other's word and I see no reason for that to change. KP has stated that no Kzinti member will submit any future game that uses a Dread Lords opponent. I take him at his word. If you're stating that your 1.5M ZYW game does not have a Dread Lord opponent in the game then again I will take you at your word and be the first to congratulate you on whatever monster score comes from such a game. However if the 1.5M ZYW contained even one Dread Lord opponent then I would expect you to follow Kryo's and KP's prohibition and not submit the resulting game, or if you do submit it at least acknowledge that it had one or however many Dread Lords that it did.

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Maiden666

Join Date 12/2008

+62

I will of course respect Kryo's (in representation of SD) and KP's wishes, as well as any other wishes that are reached by communities/empires etc where I belong to or have characters put into.

However, I find it hard to trust *you*, in fact, I'd be a fool to believe you have any good intents about me or my games. It's absurd to trust somebody that constantly instrumentalize lies & deceit, doesn't feel sorry about spying or putting the names of countless MV players into the drain. You don't even understand the ethical dillema you're into, isn't it?

Maybe we can shed some more light into this. You're constantly addressing the initial PM's you've written to me and KP, here they are:

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Mumblefratz

Sent Apr 17, 2010 14:47

I thought it best to ask this question in a PM instead of in the open forums.

Regarding the use of Dread Lords as an opponent (in fact if my assumption is correct even as multiple opponents). What's up with that? Is this considered standard ARC play these days (I'm just asking, not criticizing)?

If so, what's so great about Dread Lords as an opponent? Is the benefit pretty much restricted to your ZYW style of play or is this something that would apply to longer games as well?

I intended to do a few ZYW's however I probably go about them differently than you do. In my case I really only care about the "big" game but if it's realistically possible to win the game before the first year is out without compromising the final score then fine I'll do it if only to see where I am at year 0.

My 1 million point DL game was severely restricted to everyone else's comparable game in that I could not use the "feature" of going bankrupt and continuing to spend, so in my case it took me two years to get to the point I can get to now in only one year. I still haven't managed to submit even a partial game because I'm still trying to adjust the mechanics of getting everything to finish up at about the same time, but soon.

This would make my ZYW score more dependent on early conquest and population growth and less about tech spending however extensive tech spending is involved in order to get all the requisite techs soon enough.

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The first letter basically was nothing but whining that you cannot use the same features as I do in my "Negative Balance" strategy. Which is your own fault because you didn't update your game to the latest build - which makes perfect sense as you've put this game down for quite some time.

Here's my answer:

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From : Maiden666
Sent: 4/17/2010 4:00:20 PM

Mumble,

I shall be vague as most of these stuff actually is secret to the Empire. I hope for your understanding of this.

The DL's "ARC" is, in fact, not a real ARC but some kind of glitch that can appear during the setup. Can't say what it exactly caused but this way it has been created first time (and noticed during the game). It does provide a fair advantage in a ZYW, and hence, in a big game, too - although one would have to make a specific strategy around it to use it for its full advantage. My playstyle (NB strat) does not do this. I had an advantage of this for the first 24 turns, and then, even a disadvantage, because it was swindle-time, but the DL's don't colonize....

I don't know what historically has been deemed standard ARC or "unallowed"; because this debate was simply before my time (as I didn't knew about the DL 1.4 problems). I just once had a MV game from DL 1.0 and was surprised to make as good as no points. It seems that the evolution of GalCiv was pretty big from patch to patch. But to come back to the ARC point, I think even "normal" ARC isn't approved by StarDock, at least, it was Cari's belief that a player could have a benefit from it. And that is *exactly* why it is done.... Having all opponents set to Breeder with points to moral will net 4 times the post-swindle population, which is then translated directly (and multifold) into score. However, the point is StarDock choose to ignore the subject (as caring for it would imply creating another MV-controlling systeme) thus everybody took it up, as long as certain tags from the xml-file isn't controlled by the game, it is free to change. And this logic applies to the DL-opponnent-status now....as it did to certain ToE-members who played TA games with stock-races who got another techtree....

Make no mistake, the ability to "spend" in debt (which is one pillar of the NB strat) won't get you anywhere with the all-econ approach that you usually play. One still needs to pay for everything he does, as well as there can't be any research done in debt. Thus, researching all basic techs you'll need is a prohibitive factor that delays this. Secondly, you can't buy any ships in debt. And, somewhere in an all-econ strat there is a point reached where one building and one ship can be bought on all planets, and this strategy will net the best Econscore, as well as you can have a relatively high Military Ranking from not so many Huge Hulls. What you will gain, once all ships have been upgraded, is to overbuild all starports with Stocks, which brings you one turn, nothing else.

I've looked into the Econ-strat in my first DL game, and simply couldn't find anything else to make it better. I jumped to NB somehow midway, and this way in fact detrimental. You either go this way, or the other way - right off y0. So, I think, you're still on-top with your strat, although I can't say how more you have improved/changed anything.

I'm impressed, if your writing means you can have 17k under the MSBA at the end of the first year; I only could manage 8k.

I wish you best of luck

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Well, if you look through my answer and compare it to the correnspondence that I had with GmOOnii you'll find that I did inform you about the nature of the DL ARC correctly, in no way did I try to use lies or deceit in order to confuse the topic. Of course I won't reveal the DL ARC in itself - because I respect GmOOnii's wishes, and also have an agreement to NOT disseminate stuff that was hosted in the protected forums at the Core. That's simply not how empires work. Why I should make an exception with you, I don't know - you've given me no reason at all. Somebody else might have taken it simply like a man.

Here's your response then:

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Mumblefratz

Sent Apr 17, 2010 17:24

I respect the "secret to the Empire" concept. On the other hand everyone must realize that all of this stuff becomes known sooner or later and usually sooner rather than later.

As far as the "legality" of something it's more determined by agreement within the community rather than by Stardock. And while it's most certainly true that we all exploit some part of the game or other there are certain things that would be considered cheating even though they might not get caught by coverage of xml tags. For example hex editing of save files is universally considered cheating and we're pretty certain folks have done so in the past even though there are checksum's and the like in the file to protect against such things.

It's not sufficient to say that anything that doesn't trip a cheat flag is fair game.

I guess the question is, and perhaps it's probably best just to pass this onto KP, how much is this information worth to you? Are you so certain that this will be considered no problem that you're willing for me to ask direct and specific questions publically? I mean it's one thing to set all opponents to Super Breeder, in fact that can legitimately be done inside the game with no ARC whatsoever. But the Dread Lords are *not* a legitimate opponent that can normally appear and then to say that you can have 4 Dread Lord opponents if not 9 in the same game.

As far as I know I can't even use 9 of the same legitimate opponent in the game let alone multiple undocumented opponents.

In all reality I think it's doubtful I even want to do this given that the Dread Lords do not colonize and for my style that's a pretty big negative.

But your description of this glitch is not particularly encouraging and I would like to understand more about this.

I think the best way to proceed is for you to pass this onto KP and let him make the decision as to whether he prefers that I ask these questions in a public thread or whether I ask these questions in the privacy of a PM. Let him make that call.

In any case I appreciate your candor such as you can give.

--------------------------------------------

Your answer is revealing in few ways.

First off, it cannot be overlooked that you suddenly shifted from overtly friendly to angry. You were trying to put pressure on me by threatening to maker this "stuff" available to the public - which is basically a ludicrous undertaking if you keep in mind that I *freely* and *openly* proclaimed (on my own) to use this DL ARC in my games. But although you were deceived in your logic - this doesn't resolve the fact you've just tried to coerce something out of me.

Further, you seem to be the opinion that Stardock doesn't have to say much concerning the legality of ARC methods - which contradicts the mentality you put up in this very thread by 100%. One of the many occasions where you shapeshift your opinions to accomodate your ends. In my land that's called "hypocrisy".

Now, when you address me in private you behave as being the GrandMaster of the MV who always has the right for the last word - while in the publicitly of the GC2 forums your head is stuck * * * of the executives here.

Another thing you've got totally wrong in your example to lecture me about the fair use of ARC is the all-Breeder-approach. In DA, you CANNOT set up all opponents to Breeder using the in-game race-editor. You have even given the answer to 'why it cannot be done' by yourself - but apparently didn't realize it. You say, you cannot use the same opponents 9 times - and that's exactly why you cannot play against 9 Torians or 9 CustomRaces. Ring ring ring.

And given the fact that you are playing all-Breeder - which is a colonization-strategy that focuses on the AI strength to colonize the whole galaxy, while the player rests easy in his chair expecting to take over the game once the AI is finished - how can you say that you've done a legitimate change that isn't a big deal?

I mean, why do you do it then? Why don't you let the Yor be SuperIsolationist still? The answer that we can all guess: It would disrupt your strategy if the Yor would have a central starting place. Ummm.... Colony Ships with 3 parsecs speed? ....but yeah, no big deal. [sarcasm]

Then you have the Drath - let them gang up the races, so they will stop colonizing and start building Troop Transports & Fighters. And... and.... and....

.... none of these SuperAbilites will contribute to your strategy, but in All-Breeder the ColonyShips will hold a greater pop, a better colonized planet will grow faster pop and have a higher tax reward - which will give the AI more resources to build further colony ships. Bingo!

And this is basically justified by the *absence* of a comment by Cari - which you twisted into an *okay - do it*. Now I'm not saying here that this is soooo utterly wrong here, esp. that I myself acknowledge ARC as legit, all right, all Top25 players do it. But it shows how you bend and twist the situation to suit your own standpoint. Get honest, at least with the thing you do with this game.

And this is the whole problem - your "this ARC can be done in-game" was a purposeful lie - because you've made a post in the ToE-site were you acknowledged that one HAS to alter the xml-files to enable all-Breeder. If you want I post a quote of it here....

How do you expect that I, or someone else, should trust you?

I've asked you now for proofs to backup your various claim - but you are uncooperative. Why?

Why can't you post your email or PM correspondence with Technician? Why don't you post the full sentences from Kryo's response, in an un-altered way?

And these questions put us into the right place to examinate your next letter:

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Mumblefratz

Sent May 7, 2010 19:04

I sent a copy of this to KP as well.

First off. I'm not going to tell anyone. In fact the only reason I posted what I did was because I had already tried out what the wiki said and was unable to get it to work. However I figured it might be close enough to scare you into saying something that might give me an additional clue.

However usually the best clue is simply the fact that something can be done. Once you know that, then if you apply logic then it usually turns out that there's really not all that many combinations of things that can be responsible.

After all, the real Dread Lords config is sitting in GalCiv2\DarkAvatar\MetaverseData\English\RaceConfig.xml for all to see and compare to the *.customracexml files that we all know and love so well.

At first I was fixated on the <RaceID>23</RaceID> and the <CivType>5</CivType> tags as the most likely source of difference between Dread Lord behavior and "normal" major race behavior. But I literally tried pretty much all combinations of these two thing in conjunction with using the the Dread Lords inherent abilities and default techs. And while I did get some of these configurations to work in sandbox mode none of them worked in metaverse mode and even in sandbox mode none behaved like I thought Dread Lords should behave. In other words all of them colonized like major races and otherwise were indistinguishable from a major race.

In fact I had done all of the above prior to posting in the ZYW thread, but at that point I had given up on the configuration for the moment and was continuing on in my current game with my current strategy.

You know how when you're trying to remember something and you know you know the answer but you just can't think of it and then you forget about it for awhile and then suddenly out of the blue while that is the last thing on your mind it suddenly comes to you? Well that's what happened to me. I went back to the old Sherlock Holmes adage that if you've eliminated the impossible then whatever's left *must* be the cause no matter how improbable. And so I gave up on the <RaceID> and <CivType> tags and figured it had to be something else. At first I didn't think much about the <AIPersonality> tag. After all that was something that you could actually change when you edit any race. But then I was scanning all the other races and I noticed that <AIPersonality>3 was not used in any other race. So I tried changing one of my stock ARC files to <AIPersonality>3 and I'm sure at this point you know exactly what I discovered. The changed AI used it's default colony ship to colonize the system secondary but other than that did build another colony ship or colonize another planet. Also when I talked to them on March 1st they seemed to have a lot of money, like in excess of 19K bc's. Also it seemed that they didn't reseach much if anything and so would be a ready source of cash to fund the severe deficit spending that an Altarian Technologist goes through in the early part of the game.

I'm not going to pretend that I know everything there is to know about this. Nor have I developed a strategy to take advantage of this "feature", however I will.

The point of me telling you this is related to the offer that I made to gmOOnii to join her empire. I wanted to make sure that you realized that my offer to her was genuine and not just a sleazy way for me to discover your "secret" because it was pretty obvious to all that it was really gmOOnii that really discovered this.

The real reason that I offered to join her is in fact precisely as I stated in my response to her thread, which is that I could never join the number 1 empire and even if I could, at this point I probably have burned enough bridges that I wouldn't be welcomed in the first place. But that's OK. If I really had to choose between having a good teammate or having a good opponent, I would opt for the good opponent every time because there's really no glory in beating folks that no longer play the game. Win or lose I find it more fun to compete against the best rather than team up with the best and compete against no one.

Please take this as a compliment and not as an insult. I do not now nor have I ever hated or even disliked the Kzinti Empire. If there was anything about the Kzinti empire that I disliked it was the appearence of people "jumping on the bandwagon" to get the 1st place medal with no work whatsoever on their part. Again please don't take that as an insult, it's merely how I and most of the other folks at ToE saw things.

In any case like I said, I offer you something that neither the dead nor a teammate can, which is competition. Certainly not at the empire level because there is not a snowflake's chance in hell that gmOOnii and I and whoever else that's still playing the game that we could possibly attract could ever overtake you at the empire level. However at the individual level that's an entirely different kettle of fish. You might win or I might win, not knowing is part of the fun. I hope you can see it that way as well.

Best Regards,
Mumble

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This letter actually does back-up all my previous conclusions multiple times. Again, you make up some stories....

For the reader of this thread who isn't aware of the truth behind it I will comment it. Despite Mumblefratz claims of being so intelligent and having found out our strategies by looking at the game and its folders - what did happen in reality is that he already gained entry into our protected forums and was syping there. Oh Mumblefratz you are so godd* clever. Really! Shall I say it again? You badly need it, don't you? Arrogancy without end. I'm speechless here...

And the beginning is really interesting. Basically you say that the theatre you made in the ZYW thread was nothing but a hoax in order to scare me into giving out additional infos. And there in the ZYW thread you use phrases like "it wasn't reasonable of me to think like this" while in this PM you say the exact opposite of it. Contradictive as always.

Other folks would be ashamed if they would have to use such ways, but you even seem to take pride in it.

But the most interesting thing is that you stae that "you won't tell anybody" and also that you will develop a strategy to take advantage of this. Now maybe this is true or just another lie to trick me into thinking we are somehow partners in crime or whatever you may think in your twisted mind.... I just see you stating you will use it, then you won't use it, here A then B, then A again, and so on and forth, in pretty every forum posts you make here in GC2 or in the ToE site.

At this point, for me, all your credibility is lost. I'm not going to put up with all these lies.

Trust is based on truth - which is experienced over a longer period. Lies do destroy trust immediately. In Germany we have a saying: "You don't trust a liar - even when he speaks the truth". That's now our status quo.

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Maiden666

Join Date 12/2008

+62

I have no intention of dedicating 6 to 8 weeks of my limited free time playing a style of game I have no desire to play in some attempt to "prove" you or anyone else wrong.

Then I take your claims are unfounded. You simply lack the experience that one would need to make such allegations.

If you can't see how I would look at the progression of your scores starting with less than 200K ZYW's prior to using Dread Lord opponents going to a 687K ZYW with using Dread lord opponents only 2 games later then I don't know what else to say.

Maybe you should correct your error. My histroy of gaming is not like you state it here. I've broken MottiKhan's ZYW record already in January, where there was no knowledge of the DL ARC yet.

I've not hosted/submitted all games I did play already - for various reasons. However, I did announce these game(s) in the ZYW-thread as well as in our Core-forums - you couldn't have overlooked it. But you are ignoring this - because it doesn't suit your argument here that I cannot "best" somebody without the use of the DL ARC. Hah.

I've played a 224k ZYW game using the "Extended ZYW" strategy - well documented, using an all-rare setup (!)

Then I discovered the mighty "Negative Balance" strat (during the "prolonging" part of the previous mentioned strat) - and only by tinkering around a bit with it scored way over 300k. And that was still not an all-abundant game.

Back these days big galaxies & high pop etc pp was still fairly new to me, as I'm explicitly a ZYW-player. So of course I do get better from time to time, that's pretty natural.

The DL's were quite nice for some time, but they only build their darn factories - for which I have no use. Hyperion Shrinkers are quite better; and I need them badly to compensate the lack of Huge Hulls. Find out how you can make the StockRaces build them and follow me in my trail.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

I will of course respect Kryo's (in representation of SD) and KP's wishes, as well as any other wishes that are reached by communities/empires etc where I belong to or have characters put into.

Great. Then we're in total agreement.

I see no benefit in going into the he said she said represented by the PM's you produced. Sure I could go over them line by line and tell you how I interpret them far differently then you seem to have interpreted them. I and/or KP can also produce the PM's that we exchanged as well with each of us highlighting and quoting and saying what the other person meant by this or that until the cows come home.

I don't believe this to be productive. We've agreed on all that I cared about in the first place which is that Dread Lord opponents are no longer acceptable. That's all I care about and if you wish to curse me up and down the thread for your own satisfaction then be my guest.

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Man! All this intensity and competitiveness makes me want to play again. Most active I've seen this section of the forum in a long time. After looking at the activity through the ALtmeta though, seems I'd be a one man empire

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Quoting DethAdder,

reply 56

Man! All this intensity and competitiveness makes me want to play again. Most active I've seen this section of the forum in a long time. After looking at the activity through the ALtmeta though, seems I'd be a one man empire

Better one man than zero.

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Quoting DethAdder,

reply 56

Man! All this intensity and competitiveness makes me want to play again. Most active I've seen this section of the forum in a long time. After looking at the activity through the ALtmeta though, seems I'd be a one man empire

That's why I was goading the ToE thread. Trying to stir a resurgence.

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That's why I was goading the ToE thread. Trying to stir a resurgence.

Yea, I saw that master plan of yours . No disrespect to peeps like Maiden and Mumble, but with the speed with which you turn out games if anyone can be a one man meta wrecking crew...

Too bad most the ToE guys don't even have GC2 installed anymore and none I have talked to have really shown an interest. For a while we had some non-forum going members putting up a few games here and there, but even that has petered out. I guess the ToE officially died a little while back and no one was there to notice.

"One man, alone. Betrayed by the country he loved...." heh OK, so I've watched Transformers2 too many times this weekend

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To my knowledge, you have burned no bridges. Or would you. That's about all we ask.

Snark's recruiting mercenaries willing to kill (Good) kids. Not my first choice, but it's a job.

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If only all this energy was spent to actually play the game and to rekindle the life of this forum / community... I can understand why people participate in it, but I can't see much outcome if we continue this thread for several more pages discussing back and forth.

To me it's quite sad that Kryo has to step away from Elemental to interfere in this type of discussion (even though it's a sign of how far his involvement and ownership go, far beyond the release date)

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Maiden666

Join Date 12/2008

+62

I just re-read page 1. If taking advantages of a bug is considered an invalid exploit then I wonder why the MCC didn't got fixed in DL/DA? The player or AI's are supposed to built it, but not in a MV-games, only sandbox?

Okay, TA fixed it but introduced the Influence-pts bug - which can be used to scoop up all the AI's off their last trousers...

In fact, a closer look at the game mechanix will reveal countless bugs... some which are well known and became standardized (see above)... others are more sublime but still there and contribute.... and who's to say he did shun something he wasn't even aware of?

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If taking advantages of a bug is considered an invalid exploit then I wonder why the MCC didn't got fixed in DL/DA?

Hand-editing the xml files to set a setting that is specifically excluded in the in-game AI setup goes well beyond "taking advantage of a bug". There are no excuses to be made here and no finger pointing is needed. Just stop doing it.

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Maiden666

Join Date 12/2008

+62

Neither do I equate these two things.

But does this then also mean that changing a StockRaces homesystem or SuperAbility isn't approved by Stardock either? Because those two things can't be done from within the game either.

And this is not about putting blame on anyone. I am only trying to defend myself. As well as I want to know what particular features are approved by Stardock and which not.

Because, after all, I'm still going to participate in the MV and the GC2-forums - and this means talking about ingame mechanics as well. And if this means that I could be called whatsoever just because I finish a game with an Altarian SuperAnnihilator then I will abstain from these forms of ARC entirely, too.

If you're referring to the bug where one-per-galaxy improvements aren't removed from the queue once one is completed (and if that bug still exists--haven't checked), that would also be an invalid tactic. You'd be taking advantage of a bug to get an obvious and significant advantage.

and what about this?

For example, using the MCC obviously provides a player a significant advantage. Am I allowed to build it and submit this game or is this invalid? Kryo, this is not ment to put a finger pointing at anybody, neither Stardock nor MV players. But I would like to know if I am allowed to use this game as the most uptodate version currently is?

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The MCC is an "always been that way" thing, so if you're still playing DL/DA where it gives an econ bonus, so be it. Improvements are made to be built and you're not breaking any rules or mechanics by using it.

That's quite a bit different from using the governors to thwart the one-per-galaxy rules which have always been in place (and pretty much any player will be well aware of) and are clearly violated by that bug, or hand editing files to cripple the AI.

Super abilities and starting systems aren't balanced against racial ability bonuses AFAIK (which is why custom races get more ability points and can pick whichever super ability) so that probably isn't such a big deal to pick and choose for your player race. Though if you're doing something like giving all the AIs the same weakest super ability in the game, that sort of thing is going to be borderline at best. It's not really an outright exploit since there are core races that use say, super spy, and I don't recall most of the super abilities really being game-winners for the AI to begin with, but you're still dumbing down your opponents unnecessarily.

I'd have to reserve final judgment on ARC should more significant "techniques" like the DL-AI setting arise in the future, but for the aspects of it that can be done in-game with the actual Custom Race, most of it probably falls under the "don't like but can probably tolerate since it's not significant" category for now.

Since GC2 is at end of life (barring minor tweaks from Brad whenever he feels like it) and Cari is otherwise occupied these days, I can't do anything to stop you myself. But I would strongly advise using some conscience when looking for new play techniques so we can keep the game honest while there are still people playing and competing on the meta.

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Conscience and honesty? Whatever rules, absence of bugs and outright exploits, the numbers might be different but not the leading names.

SD makes the rules by code. The players make the rules by playing. Let none of us make judgments.

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Quoting kryo,

reply 65

.......hand editing files to cripple the AI.

I don't know where you're getting that impression We want to make the AIs as bad-ass as possible! I just started a game against 9 custom Super-Hives with 200% economic abilities/Federalist/max points to economics! I fully expect to pull down 800K at a minimum. No way could I do what I do against pu$$y AIs.

That's the apparent paradox of the Suicidal level. The stronger the AIs, the better we score (after getting our butts wiped off the map a few times learning technique ).

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Neilo

Join Date 04/2006

+128

I'm so very late to this debate, and as i understand it many have left the forums, but i'm going to address a few things.

I did not read all this, and so much of what i say will be a generalization, and being that as it will be, i'm sure to paint some folks with the wrong brush, but i suspect i won't be far off, and in any case, my opinions are exactly that.

Snark.

The ToE, regardless of what you want to believe did not know what benefits changing AIPersonality would bring, since we never tried a full game with it altered. ARC's were first used to construct a unique race. SB and i were messing with what we could change after he learned that the game would not flag certain changes. He and i then pushed the limits to see what the game would and would not flag. I, in the race for more score pushed harder and harder and it was SB, who at the time was my morality conscience, for lack of a better description, would council me as to what was morally usable and not.

We decided that if it couldn't be changed in the confines of the game UI, then it was off the table, so no further testing was done. Did we know you could alter AIPersonality, yes.

Did we, no. Ask SB if you don't believe me. Other than the choices in game it was left untouched since we felt that that direct editing what cant be changed in game, was not be design nor what Brad and Cari intended for us to mod.

Also, ARC's at this time were for use as your playable character, not for AI, so again the need for using AIPersonality was never there.

Jacklv.

LOL, i was near sure form what comments of yours i read that Mumble had killed your dog or something. Can i ask, are you more upset that mumble spied on you and ousted a well used kzinti technique, or upset that since his actions and the kzin have been brought to the attention of SD, the technique is no longer available to you?

I suspect the latter.

Scanian8.

Who are you? Certainly no one qualified to be in the debate from what i can tell, other than being qualified via your kzin membership. I'm not sure how you factor into this.

RGB2012.

Same question?

SS.

A voice of reason as always...glad to see you are still picking this game apart.

Iztok!!

Greetings!

KP...

Well i think in hindsight you would have never have made this thread, in fact i was surprised to see you as the OP. As much as you have been the bane of my GC2 existence, i have always been able to respect you and your actions, mostly. Not this time though...The Kzin tried on many occasions to spy into areas on ToE that they were not allowed into. I have had repeated requests over the years for access, and there was one blatant spy who admitted so much even, yet here he is and you denouncing Mumble for the same things you guys tried/did for years. Were these attempts as brutal as what Mumble did you to you, i guess not. But you guys tried no less...kettle's and black pots......

Doesn't seem right to publicly oust Mumble for the same actions that your members have themselves attempted does it?

Another point KP. Purge's diplo technique. I don't recall you ever being in any of those discussion, so how would you know what went on and what didn't. But i recall you calling your version of that game the great galactic swindle..how is that any different to what we coined the Mumbler.

You don't really think he called it that himself do you. It was me and DA if i recall correctly that coined that phrase..and mumbles contributions to it warranted the credit i assure you.

It seems there are many things on the MV that due credit is not given for..but i bet if i asked around most would say "the kzin thought of that"....Can't fault a great propaganda machine i guess.

Mumble.

You got belted from pillar to post for calling attention to an exploit that was being so overused that i agree, it was a cheat. Those using it knew it, thats why all this hubub, and why this thread exist's in the first place.

Nevertheless, i fell you you did the right thing, but for all the wrong results. The sad thing is this will change nothing..the cheat will continue to be used, since there is no way of checking for it, and the loudest protesters will continue to flame away, protesting your actions all the while raping the MV with inflated scores.

Using AIPersonality in game is a cheat. Silverbeacher and i agreed upon this when we we first discovered ARC's. There is even a thread about here discussing this that Cari weighed in on where she stated something to the effect of "only changes allowed from within the game UI would be accepted" She went on to say that she frowned upon those even, but if it could be done in game then there was little she could do. Direct XML editing was and is an exploit/cheat. We knew that 3 or 4 years ago. Something to which i'm pretty sure you agreed to KP.

I guess it only become acceptable when uber scores were possible by those in the know......

In any case....scoring for scoring sakes ruined this game. Mumble did what he did...such is life...but it seems to me that only those with the most to lose are yelling the loudest.

I challenge you all to this. Reset all your your top characters...any character that has ever used an ARC, wipe it.

Now play out a suicidal game with 9 AI changing nothing. Use the vanilla settings for yourself and the AI....

Ok...you did that..

Was it fun?

End of debate/

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KzintiPatriarch

Join Date 05/2007

+95

Hey Neilo...good to see you around here again.

Not once did I ever ask one of my members to try to spy on the ToE forums, and for people like Snark or Motti who had characters in both empires, I made sure they agreed not to divulge empire-proprietary secrets from/to either empire. Sure, we would have liked to know if you had some techniques that we didnt, but I wouldnt have wanted to get them in that way. As to what individual members might have tried without my knowledge, I dont know.

I am very satisfied with the course of this thread.

And as for credit being given to the deserving parties, you know that I have always been very vocal with thanking and acknowledging those who discovered them, whovever they are, or what empire they are in. Just ask those players yourself. The only reason the Swindle term was coined, is we didnt know what the term Mumbler meant for a while, until ToE people started talking about it openly....because it was a secret, remember? Heh! By that time, "swindle" was in use by everyone in our empire.

How's life been treating you recently?

P.S. About a week ago, I started a 9 AI suicidal game, foregoing the use of even strategies like all-labs/factories. Looks like its going to be a blast, even if I get my ass whooped. Definitely still fun!

Sentient species taste better...

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

Nevertheless, i fell you you did the right thing, but for all the wrong results. The sad thing is this will change nothing..the cheat will continue to be used, since there is no way of checking for it, and the loudest protesters will continue to flame away, protesting your actions all the while raping the MV with inflated scores.

BMF,

I agree with most of what you said except this. I do honestly believe that Kryo having pronounced the use of Dread Lord opponents cheating and KP acknowledging this and publically declaring the practice not suitable for the MV *will* in effect pretty much stop this practice. That was the point of this and my goal throughout the entirety and although I would have prefered this to be discussed openly and the logical conclusion made, just as we all made the logical conclusion to not use the planetary governor bug, in the end the "right" decision was made and if I had to take (and continue to take, Jacklv) a bunch of shit in order to accomplish this, then so be it.

I am very satisfied with the course of this thread.

I wouldn't use the word *very* but I too am satisfied with the course of this thread given that the result is a banning of a practice that I not only felt to be cheating but also contributed to a dramatic increase in the tedium of an already overly tedious game. Like I said I would have prefered to accomplish it without having to take so much grief but c'est la vie.

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That whole "3" thing is "old hat" anyway. There is a NEW uber secret now.

There is nothing anyone can say to get one of us to even HINT as to its nature.

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KzintiPatriarch

Join Date 05/2007

+95

Hmmm...I missed something...

Sentient species taste better...

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Oh, it's not a Kzinti Uber Secret. It's a Kilts and Daggers Uber Secret. Sorry, I should have mentioned that.

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Neilo

I didn't bother to read your drivel wall of text either. You are dumber than I remember.

Don't know what technique you refer to. I'm no upset at mumble. Just calling him out for what he is.

btw Neilo, it's not a debate. It's a statement of fact.

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I did read the last paragraph.

Anytime.

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