An interesting rhetorical flourish, but ultimately facetious.  At the point at which Kryo (or another creator of the game) says that a particular exploit or strategy is not MV legal, the opinion of the average player loses much of it's relevance on that specific issue (in my opinion).  Whatever you, or I, or other player think on the matter, is superseded by Kryo's statement.  I believe that it is the right thing to do for those who wish to play on the MV to accept that determination by Kryo, as we have done.  To then twist this logic around and say that those players that were using it were willfully cheating, retroactively, is intellectually dishonest.  Creative use of words, but clearly a perversion of logic.

Sentient species taste better...

You can try to twist my words Mumble.  Everyone knows what I meant.

What matters is the entire community now knows you for what you are.  A dishonest, morally bankrupt man.

In that case, who cares what goes on in DL or the YZWs? I sure don't. As far as I am concerned, these individuals are doing what they have to to keep the dead, beat-to-crap games interesting. They are merely showing some initiative, and keeping interest up in a waning gaming community.

That being said, these games should ought be declared as "3" games. This will maintain a reasonable measuring stick between different styles of players. Aren't the YZWs already divided into separate categories? I'm too disinterested to go look. If so, just make this another category.

Your dodging the point:

You denounced the entire kzinti empire.

You called them cheaters.

He opened this thread, which with all do respect, this could have been settled some other way than to make it public.

However, you have escalated this and put this blame unto yourself.  You angered kzinti with what you did, he called you out.  Although he made the mistake of posting this in the first place, with every one of his responses he has been trying to calm this down; every  one of your posts has only escalated this argument.  And even though he said some things about you, that was only in response to the exponentially more disrespectful things you said about him.

OK let's look at what you're saying here since from your profile it's clear you're fairly new and hence at least on the surface this reply should be considered the opinion of a neutral observer.

So OK yes I did denounce the entire Kzinti Empire by calling at least *some* members cheaters.

But later you say "And even though he said some things about you, that was only in response to the exponentially more disrespectful things you said about him."

But isn't what's good for the goose, good for the gander? You're excusing attacks made on me because they were in response to attacks I made. But then *all* of my attacks were only made in response to the initial OP which cannot be seen as anything but an attack on me.

So his (and by extension everyone else's) attacks on me are excused because of an earlier attack I made and yet my attacks, which in each and every case are in response to a previous attack on me, are not excused. Curious. Could you please explain the logic behind this?

Perhaps the key is your statement that "every one of his responses he has been trying to calm this down" whereas "every one of your posts has only escalated this argument."

For one that is a very subjective observation, one in fact that I don't personally share. Of course I have to assume that by "he" in this phrase you mean KzintiPatriarch. The problem with this is that this somehow presumes that this has been a conversation solely between me and KP which it's not been. Even if you're correct and KP has in fact been trying to de-escalate the situation then perhaps I hadn't really noticed because of all the interjections of the other 4 or 5 folks that have participated in this thread.

Or perhaps you're saying that all 5 or 6 people that have criticized me have *all* been trying to calm things down and I am the only one being unreasonable. If so then again I don't see it that way and I think that a neutral observer should be able to pick up on the fact that I'm responding to attacks made by multiple folks, not just one person.

But OK I will accept the idea of trying to calm things down. Of course all anyone had to do to stop this thread was to stop replying, I have no desire to continue beating a dead horse, however as the person initially attacked I do reserve the right to have the last word.

However let's try this. I can't say that I'm sorry that I spied on the Kzinti private forums because given the same circumstances I would do the same thing that I did all over again. However I will apologize to the Kzinti Empire for spying on their private forums. I don’t know if this is much of a distinction but it’s the best that I can do.

As far as the cheating goes at this point it’s a dead horse. KP has said that no member of the Kzinti Empire will submit another MV game that uses AIPersonality 3 and I will accept him at his word. This assumedly also includes AIPersonality 12 or any other number that cannot be selected from within the game, in other words NO Dread Lords opponents.

I do have to assume that all other previously acceptable ARC modifications remain acceptable, however my preference would be to simply disallow *all* external game file modifications, but this can be left to another discussion.

Finally I want to state that the so-called cheating is not what initially pissed me off. After all as I earlier stated all this is was the modification of one more line in a file that was already being modified. A potentially very big line but one line nonetheless.

It wasn’t that I felt that somehow I was personally being cheated that pissed me off, it was the attitude that I received when simply trying to bring up the subject both in private to Maiden and KP and then publicly in the ZYW thread. All I got was “empire secret” from Maiden, essentially ignored by KP and the following from the ZYW thread.

It was not the “cheating” that pissed me off it was denying me the right to even question it that pissed me off and it was that denial, that instigated this long chain of events. If you can’t understand that then there’s no way I can explain it any clearer.

It pretty much took me all this time to respond to RGB2012's reply. In the meantime I notice Maiden's appearance in the thread.

@Maiden,

First off condolences on your GrandMa. As someone that has buried 2 grandmothers, a grandfather, a great grandmother, a father, a father-in-law and a mother-in-law, I know and understand what that means and anything even remotely game related pales in comparison.

At this point I am trying to take the advice of what I take to be a neutral observer who at least claims that the other side has been trying to de-escalate the situation. If that's really so I have done what I can to do the same. If not then I suppose we shall see.

In any case what would me giving you what you're asking for really prove? That I can create pretty much any stream of ascii characters either in a forum post here or in a PM at the Core that say anything that I wish it to say? The only proof that I offered was a secure password that I would otherwise have no ability to guess. Anything else is just ascii text in some form or other.

That password is only one layer of protection in the forums.  Even with the password, nobody without the correct permissions granted could get still get in.  Dont worry to much about it Maiden.  And it will soon be completely irrelevant.   But yes, that was in very bad form Mumble.  I chose not to comment on it before, because it is what I have come to expect anyway.  Thank you for the apology.  RGB2012 and Scanian, thank you for your comments as well. Yes perhaps this thread was not the wisest of actions, but I think this issue needed to be let out in the full light of day, so to speak.

Sentient species taste better...

Man up and tell the truth Mumble.  You were pissed because from your self perceived throne of MV god, you couldn't get the information for your own benefit.  How dare these (stupid) bandwagon jumpers who have done no work.

Phooey.

Darn. Written a lengthy reply and then the general fuse broke, taking the stuff into oblivion.

Tomorrow's another day... maybe I can make some quick comments. Lots of stuff that's said here is simply false.

The following is the PM-correspondence with GmOOnii - out of which the DL ARC arose.

Unlike others here, I don't rip out quotes from others and inject them into my own sentences (which will probably give them an other meaning) so the letters are reprinted fully, and in chronological order.

For those that don't want to read that much, the short story is as follows:

GmOOnii contacted me because she wanted some help with ZYW's - she's seen my scores at the specific threads, and offered me to reveal her own (KP's...) write-up in sequels to me...

Actually, around this time I've been finished creating a totally new way to play ZYW's - using Super Diplomat, and swindleing the enemy out of the game. Alone this single strategy will yield 50% more score than a classical ZYW, which has been played for years now with Spore - and if such a game is played "further prolonged" - can easily break any previous record that was recorded within the old ZYW thread.

I initially agreed, and then went to work to re-arrange the SuperDiplomat-tactic for the Saintly-alignment. In the meanwhile, commenting on her strat, trying to better it.

What then happened is that GmOOnii changed her opponent to Thalans, amongst a few other changes - who then had a lot of money.

The only thing that would have required to work directly on the xml-files is the change of the Homestar-tag - but she didn't do that, which is pretty much proven by the pic she sent me. However, it is fair to say that she created a Hell of a mess in the game editor - AiAbilitis etc pp were nerfed to very basic levels - although her games still counted as "Suicidal" - and that is something that usually should go either. However, keep in mind that EXACTLY around this time - her character Saint Mina was getting cheat-flagged games - well, at least sometimes, and sometimes not, randomly, and she did complain here in the forums a few times.

Well, all in all, the direct causal root of all this cannot be traced within this correspondence - but it can easily been seen what we trieds to do here - standard ARC and a new ZYW strat teaching over the course of many PM's.

So, this email-correspondence does not only proof the ludicrous and false claim from Mumblefratz (that I can only "best" other by using the DL ARC)

it also shows that this ARC was created randomly (and was even honestly considered as something negative by GmOOnii)

and further, how vivid and alive the MV still is - and that it is us (active players) who are responsible for that.

-----------------------------------------------

From : GmOOnii
Sent: 3/15/2010 1:10:47 PM

Hello Maiden666

  Have I an idea? Give me a 500K score write up so I can take First Place in 10 years by myself? Are you laughing, I am because there no way I will able to do anything like what I want at  the rate I am going with 22,000 points a day from ZYW's. If you read My Post Underdog Question, you know what I am talking about. I was put in my place by them saying "I will die before I will give anything like a write up to help you." Now look at them, they don't play and they are not even active.  This Metaverse is slowly becoming very unactive and I don't like that. I think you do too!

 KP has help me as musch as he can and that is more than he should of and thank him very much. I could ask you to help but the Underdog Question Post says you will not. I need help but I don't a hand out either. I want to earn my rank and in saying that I have plan. Earn infomation from you (You can decide how?)  and have fun (or we could do it in my empire post) with a "Battleground" post in Metaverse that you can create. Have you created a post yet?  The idea is that we can taunt each other in fun ofcousre and I won't say anything about your mother wearing army boots or anything nasty to each other, ok? I have story line or a plot. You, Agt Smith was sent to the B.C. Orcas system to slow down and interfer my Empire take over of Fifth Place and so on. I have pegged it at 100,000 points is a take over of a Solar System and 20,000 points is a take over of a planet. There are 5 planets in a Solar System. B.C. Orcas has 7 Solar Syatem before I take Fifth Place. Why I am doing this, to be active more and draw attention to what we are doing and most of all have fun trying to out smart Agt. Smith. So what do you think?

  My main goal is to be in Third place and be active. I have work up through the ranks mostly by myself. I get a little sad when someone plays one game gets over million points and never palys again. Ok, I am sorry for boring you about me being an Underdog.

Gmoonii

-------------------------------------------------

From : Maiden666
Sent: 3/15/2010 2:39:09 PM

Hi GmOOnii,

as a matter of fact I did think the same as you when I posted that reply in new ZYW thread. The fact that you're in another empire while there is no real competition at all anymore does change the situation a lot, methinks.

Well, I shall be helpfull wherever I can. Just that I don't know how empires and their score do work. Could you explain? KP is just very occupied by buying a house, he's been quite for some time.

Is it that your empire get the score a MV character achieved - but not the full score of the game (as 120k in a ZYW) but the score that is also reduced because of the number of games played - which is also the score that is attributed to the total score of that character. Meaning, if a new character plays his first game, and that score is 120k - then the empire will get 120k. But if it is the #100 game then this 120k ZYW will only rewards ~20% of its score to the character - be it 20k now - and is it that those 20k are only attributed to your empire? How is it? If you help me to understand I could be of better help to you.

Actually, I wouldn't give out any write-ups/infos without asking first. However, I've done several by myself, 2 of them even recently, and I have all right to do with them how I wish.

One is the (unfinished) presentation of the 'Negative Balance' strategy. It is the one under which I have achieved that #1 score - but that game was actually pretty hard to play. All-in-all, it took me 4 or 5 days completely devoted to play (no work or else) - it included colonizing 80 planets and ferrying population to new planets in order to even all population justly across my kingdom. It could take you 2 entire weeks to play such a game out, and this particular strategy can't bring any more points in y3 or y4 etc. By the way, building the 'Artificial Slave Center' (evil Wonder) is the main driver of this strategy, and I fear you're not going to do it. As well as Empire-wise, it would be better to design a much faster game.

And for this, I've just yesterday finished the walkthrough of an entirely new way to play ZYW's. The small games can be completed in 30mins one game - and you don't need to "Control N'ing" so much (as in a classical 'Spore ZYW') but you have a result of 120k-140k *always*.

Right after this letter, I'm gonna tweak it a bit further - and also write an add-on for this strat when playing against maximum AI's. Because of 4 more planets present at mapsetup, the Control-N phase takes slightly longer - but the outplay of such a game (1 hour) harvest 150k to 170k *always*. Maybe more if I am able to tweak it out finally.

The upsite of it is that those games can be played under the "Good"-alignment very successfully.

If you're interested, I send you these manuscripts - but I hope that you know how a swindle-strategy works? It's something the Tyranny of Evil refers to as a Mumbler-strategy - you put some Military vessels under the SCC and declare war on everybody, then offering peace for all their belongings. Right now, I've narrowed this strategy down to be able to swindle after 12 turns (1st April)

So, taking an old character of yours, and playing 3 games a day could bring you over 100k every day, empire-wise.

How much score to you still need to pass those Fishheads? LOL

Another thing that would be great is if the Adepta Sororitas would one day be #2 or #3 on the MV. Yes, it has been quite, but this is just to the Elemental beta testing, once GalCiv3 comes out, believe me, all eyes will focus on us, again. And your score is there to stay.

But if you hardly need a few millions points, there's no work-around for it than getting another 3 characters, and playing big-games with them, initially. And for this, a Swindle-game is perfect, and the above-mentioned strategy gets you to know all basic mechanisms - which can be used in a Gigantic DA all-abundant map, too.

All Hails

Maiden

--------------------------------------------------
From : GmOOnii
Sent: 3/16/2010 1:07:07 AM

Hello Maiden666

Wow, I was right you are a great Warroir!

As far as Empire and scores goes, I have been palying two ZYW's a day in under 30 minutes that brings 180,000 to 200,000 points but that is reduced to only 22,000 points. I need less than 800,000 point (7 Solar Systems) to take Fifth Place. My goal is April 17, 2010. Yes, you are right about the scores and I am not happy about it so there is nothing really I can explain about. I think Mumble has a thread some where that explains it, you could ask him. He is still active on the posts and very wise. I think the score should be in full not reduced but AltMeta has it right. Did you see how fast I went up and how fast ToE (2nd Place) went down, that what happens when you don't play.

Yes, I am interested in another tactic that gets around 500k points. I study the Home World Tactic by Mumble in the Core Forum, just haven't got around to put to use. I see how it works.  I like playing just by planet jumping with tiny or small colony transports.  I like playing Risk and Axis and Allies boards games.

If had a spy in the Core Forum that would copy and paste data. You see a spy wouldn't need permission to give out data but that would be a risk if he got caught. I was thinking of joining KP to do, just that but I didn't, I thought it would cause trouble and anyway if I did have all the data from that Library, most of it wouldn't help because I am just one person with 3 Characters and you need at aleast 50 to 100 players in an Empire. So that is why I call my Empire an Underdog and I like my motto's too.  

When Snark's other character join, I thought my empire was going to grow faster but I did get a jump from him. I havn't heard from him in awhile.  

Gmoonii

-------------------------------------------------
From : Maiden666
Sent: 3/16/2010 2:31:58 PM

GmOOnii,

thanks for your fast reply.

I payed a look at your 3 MV characters - it seems like Yedi Master Yoda is the only one that can still harvest serious points. With him, you'll get 25% of the games score attributed. Your other characters might onyl get 10%-15%. So, keeping this in mind you need just 30 150k ZYW's to surpass the Orcas. I'll show you how you can do that this week-end - if this is early enough for you.

I don't know of any Homeworld tactic by Mumble - besides the KzintiEmpire-thread I didn't pay attention to the Core. Maybe another time, for now I need to focus on some ideas I had tonight. Really strange, once I put the game away and lay down to sleep usually I get the best ideas in the next minutes. Still, keep in mind Mumble is a DL player, and has played no ZYW's whatsoever

If you ever intend on doing a 1 million-point game - an undertaking that takes *weeks* - I'd suggest you submit this as #1 game to a new character, so the score will count for 100%. There are actually some characters in the Top25 who just did that, and I struggle still with over 100 games. However, there is a way to play a 700k-game in just 2 days - but you would need to ask Snarkotamus about it - for these games are played in ToA (where my knowledge is limited to the Yor only) and I don't know the exact gameplay.

I can only imagine he's playing an all-lab strategy and using the SuperDiplomat-ability to trade for all AI planets (he gives them techs) then later he builds the MCC which will cultureflip all remaining planets. He's using the planetary governor to queue/built upt he planets to all-econ very fastly, all the while lease-buying Huge Hulls until the economy goes down the drain. Finally, he's doing one final bancrupting upgrade to all Black Hole Generator and pressing a void turn until y6.

Nevertheless, I firmly believe I can get the ZYW score even higher, maybe around 180k for a common game. Let me just do some practice to optimize that strat. In the end, all those games are very alike, and for this, not only the score needs to be optimized, but also the time in which a game could be played. For this, I need to write/record several AHK-scripts. Are you using AHK? If not, here would be a good point to start with. It's actually very easy, and you would need to design a single script only - which lets you sell one of your techs to the AI with one click. I'm facing now a hard week of work, but am positive to play some 20 ZYW's on the week-end, and I hope you join in on the crusade. My dream would be to reach Top3, but this week-end, it's out of reach.

Just one thing, as your Yoda-character is still fresh: Don't submit any scores to him!!! Play out your games with him, and rename the "endgame.sav"-file to its actuall score, like "118kendgame.sav" - and store them in one folder. Because I can guarantee you that your score will drastically increase soon (you might even kick KP from the 3rd place, hehe... that'll drive him mad) and once you got a bunch of endgames finished - submit them all, but submit the ones with the highest score first and the lower score at last, so you can get most of your games-score.

GmOOnii, in order to teach you some basics in ZYW I do actually need to know about your playing skills, the way you currently play ZYW's, and what methods you use to maximize the score. Could you maybe describe in some short terms what you currently do, and what setup you use?

Did you ever swindle an enemy out of its homeworld? Do you know about research carrying-over after endtechs are researched, or the research got capped because you did research +1 more techs as your empire holds planets? Did you ever play using the "Iconis" starsystem, having "New Iconia II" as homworld and colonizing "New Iconia 5" first, then "New Iconia" lastly to get the 52% research-bonus colonization event? Do you know that the last 2 rounds of playing are *not* taken into the score when a game gets finished? All these topics will come into play this week-end.

Well, you don't need a spy for I'll give you my own write-up, changed to the Good-alignment. Honestly, the Kzinti that's just KP, Jack and me nowadays.

So SerArris is Snark? I didn't knew that - actually he was talking to himself in your empire-thread back then???? LOL

Okay, I am off testing, save all your strength for the coming days.

Maiden

--------------------------------------------------
From : GmOOnii
Sent: 3/20/2010 7:15:47 AM

Maiden666

What is AHK? Less clicks, I like already, you just have to show me how to do step by step.

My ZYW that I got was full of loop holes so I rewrote (still writng it up) and modify it. As time goes on I will send all of it when I get written up.

Here is the First Phase: (Marigns)  top and bottom  0.39" right and left  0.39" paper F4  (8.5" x 13") 

________________________________________________________________________________________

Top Secret ZYW Files    Operation: Quick Fire

When you get this Document, copy and paste onto a Microsoft Word Document then put into a File “Top Secret ZYW” in (MY) Documents. If you have a printer, then print these 6 pages and make notes when you make a discovery.

First Phase:    Enter a GalCivII: Dark Avatar Game

Click on Metaverse and log on. (You must be log on when starting a game and when you want to submit a game at the end too.)

Choose your Hard Core Character to use to make your points with and click play.

Galaxy SetUp:    Galaxy Size is Gigantic.

Victory Conditions all uncheck. Game Options check Mega Events and Super Abilities.

Galaxy Settings are all planets and stars are set on Rare.

Star Density is set on Tight clusters.  Anomalies are set on Abundant. Asteroids set on Rare. Technology Rate is set on Very Fast. (This is the only setting you have to change every time you want to play because it switches back to Normal but rest of the settings will stay where you set them on.) Number of Minor Races is set on 8 Minor Races. Done click on Next.

    Pick Your Civilization:    That would be Altarian Resistance and click Next.

      Customize Your Civilization:    Click on Abilities and then Political.

          In Abilities, use your points on:  Economics: (+60) Master: cost 4 pts

                                                          Morale: (+35) Naturally Happy: cost 2 pts

                                                          Research: (+45) Ultra: cost 4pts

          In Political, choose Technologist Party: Research (+20) and Sensors (+1)

      Click Save and save your new settings for your ARC later on to change.  Click Next.

Choose Suicidal Difficulty and One Opponent: (Disable all other empires) Enable the Drengin Empire on the first portrait box because they have weak Diplomacy skills but don’t worry about their Strong Military because you going to wipe them out before April 15^th. Now click on Drengin portrait (popup menu should come up) and choose Neutral Relations because this will allow you to speak to them on March 1^st without actually finding them with a ship. Now click Edit on the Drengin Empire. When you get good enough, take on two races. My second race is Korath.

           In Drengin Abilities, use their points on:  Trade: (+10) Gifted Traders: cost 1 pt

                                                                         Trade Routes: (+3rts) Master Traders: cost 9 pt

                                                                          Research: (+45) Ultra: cost 4pts

In Drengin Political, choose Mercantile Party: Trade (+20) and Espionage: (+20)

Click Save and click Back a few times then click Quite.

Now that First Phase is done quite game and do Second Phase.

 ________________________________________________________________________________________

I will wait on using Yoda. If I do get this write up from you,  I would use to save about 50 end games then submit them all in one day, that should put him in the Top 25 for sure.

If you have any other question ask?

Are you useing all three of your charcater in MV? Are they all in the same empire?  Who was fighting Agt. Smith?  Nemo?

Gmoonii 

--------------------------------------------------
From : Maiden666
Sent: 3/20/2010 10:22:12 AM

Thanks for your latest reply. It is actually very good for me to see how you currently play your ZYW's, so we have something to debate and I might question your current ways a bit.

AHK - AutoHotKey - it's a small program you can download, it's for free. You can record your keyboard + mouse input with it, and use this record as a makro, which gets triggered by pressing a single key. For example, in the diplomacy-screen when you are techtradeing, you always need to

a) select your tech

b click on the AI's money

c) click on send

d) take pointer back to your techs

Now, you could record steps b-d) and attribute a single key to it. I've actually done that to the key "a". So, when trading techs, I only click on the tech I want to give away, then I press "a" and done. Then, selecting the next tech, this is actually narrowing down techtrading for 70% of the time.

If you want to try, check the AutoHotKey-Thread in GalCiv2, also. I might help you wherever I can, but you need to record your own scripts - because of the different scaling when playing in a different screen-resolution. I currently play under 1600*1000, but right now, I change to a new PC and the resolution has also changed to 1920*1200, that is, I need to recorder every makro I have, again. But once you are accustomed to it, it's just a matter of a few minutes - it's just like clicking on the buttons in GalCiv2 that you want to replace, then attributing a HotKey to it - and done.

I hope I can get yout new ZYW guide this WE - I need tore-install a lot of programs, and sadly, Win7 has the same bad desktop-design that Vista has (I'm fond of XP, really) so it'll take lot of time. duuh, no sleep for me this WE.

Yep, Agt.Smith is the main antagonist to Nemo in Matrix, which is a great trilogy and esp. the 1st and 3rd are awesome. I'm really into SciFi, but also into classic fiction.

 I shall comment a bit on your current ZYW-tactic:

First, you enable all Minor-races - but how many of them do you actually see in a ZYW? I'd say, no more than 1, if any. Each of them is worth ~800bcs, but that is not much. However, if enabled, their planets will get PreCursorLibraries, too - and that are possible ~110 tiles. Currently, I had better result by dis-enabling them, and instead enable yet another StockAI. However, here there is no best solution for every situation.

You play against Drengin/Korath. Try Thalan/Iconian instead - they give more money for your techs.

Your enemy ARC seems to to weaken the AI's - this is a grave error. Your AI's need to be strong - put all points into Morale & Economic. If some points are left, then take Pop grow. Use Federalists and ARC them to SuperBreeder, Thalan-Homesystem. This way, they'll get more money through a higher tax-income during the first 2 months. Sometimes they even have 10.000bcs, but usually 7-8.000 bcs. And when they have much much money - they give more for your techs.

I'd never increase their research-abilities - because those techs that they will research you can't sell them then anymore.

Another thing is that you should have "abundant" asteroid mines - for two reasons. Sometimes, in a system were alot of asteroid are, the secondary or third planet is omitted - thus, the game will have lesser planets, which is giving you a greater chance for more bonus-tiles.

Another thing is that the enemy Freighter that you trade for (and turn into a SpreShip) is most likely nearer to the AI's planet if there are more asteroids around.

Ok, so far this time, c'ya

Maiden

--------------------------------------------------
From : GmOOnii
Sent: 3/20/2010 7:12:43 PM

Maidne 666

I DL AutoHotKey Thingy and I will studied the data about it before I do it so that might take a few days.

I choose Drengin/Korath because they are weak dipomatic and strong military.  For Star Democracy I get 400 to 600 bc. Sometimes I can trade just research trade  for space weapons, miner ship and 2 scouts.

The asteroids, I hate them, I always get stuck and lose a turn because they move thru asteroids, instead around them.

I will set up a game and test your suggests and see if I get more than 3,000bc (bad day) to 5,000bc from Thalan/Iconian. I let you know what happens if I like, I will upgrade my write up.

Here is Second Phase:

Second Phase: Know your CPU

First locate files: (MY) Documents Files then click on My Games Files then click on GC2DarkAvatar files.  Now find Altarian Resistance raceconfig.xml file and Drengin Empire raceconfig.xml file. Good! Now make a new folder called “Race Back Up”. Copy and Paste Altarian Resistance raceconfig.xml file and Drengin Empire raceconfig.xml file in Race Back Up folder.

 Advanced Race Customization (ARC) – in the raceconfig.xml file there are a few things you can modify while still being Metaverse legal. The two important things to change for the ZYW strategy are the home star and super ability fields. You can use WordPad or Notepad to edit the file. This gives us the edge over lesser Empires. 

To open file Altarian Resistance raceconfig.xml file, right click, popup menu comes up, click on open with, popup menu comes up, then click on WordPad or Notepad. Be careful; only change what is necessary if you make a mistake. You have back files.

        Change ARC setup:                                                         Altarian Resistance raceconfig.xml file

1)    When you get done it should look like this.             <Homestar>Iconis</Homestar>

2)   When you get done it should look like this.             <SuperAbility>10</SuperAbility>

  Make sure you click on Save for Altarian Resistance raceconfig.xml file.

To open file Drengin Empire raceconfig.xml file, right click, popup menu comes up, click on open with, popup menu comes up, then click on WordPad or Notepad. Be careful; only change what is necessary if you make a mistake. You have back files.

        Change ARC setup:                                                         Drengin Empire raceconfig.xml file

1)    When you get done it should look like this.             <Homestar>Thalis</Homestar>

2)   When you get done it should look like this.             <SuperAbility> 11</SuperAbility>

   Make sure you click on Save for Drengin Empire raceconfig.xml file.

Now that Second Phase is done, now go back to First Phase and check your settings if setting are good you ready for Third Phase. (If you have two opponents, will have make another ARC.)

In Altarian Resistance, you now have two planets and Super Annihilator Super Ability which are Spore Weapons. One Shot, One Ship, One Planet, One Kill, Check Mate, Game Over.

In Drengin Empire, they now only have one planet and Super Spy Super Ability. This should make them build lots of scouts, colony ships and trade ships, which are harmless to you.

With Two opponents will get at least 20,000 more points To get around 70,000 point ZYW game you need 100% and 300% research bonus tiles. To get around 80,000 point ZYW game, wait until you get one Precursor library (700% research bonus tile). With one Precursor library and some lesser Libraries, I have been hitting around 95,000 points. To get around 90,000 point game, you will need at least two Precursor libraries. To get over 90,000 point ZYW game, you will need three Precursor libraries. You will also need to CTRL-N until your home system and the enemy’s system are in close proximity to each other. To check this, look at range radius of any of your ships, 1 or 2 grid squares away is good. The closer, the better. If it is good, Ctrl-S (Quick Save) at the beginning of the game and before you trade or attack.

The way to measure if can stay above -500bc until you need to, is just take the amount/turn that you are losing, and multiply it by the number of turns you need to keep producing research. This will tell you if you have built too many labs and are losing too much money. Check the Track record.

Gmoonii

--------------------------------------------------
From : Maiden666
Sent: 3/21/2010 9:14:42 AM

GmOOnii,

while is is true that they have a lower Diplomacy-rating (or let's say - they start out with no Diplo-bonus; like most AI's) what is more important is that all races possess an own value of techs/ships - and those Drengin do value ships high, and also some techs. I found them to be only second choice. Though still better as Humans...

Another thing is the military factor - you absolutely don't want them to built an armed Fighter very early, because this might become their HW to be uninvadeable. Hence, choose a more peaceful race, as well as ARC them to be "peace-loving".

The way I play these classical ZYW's I trade for one Scout and the Miner. I'll always take the Scout with the highest number at the end of its name (because this is the latest built and thus, very near to their HW). I'll transform this Scout to a Constructor, and then, into a SB. The Miner becomes an armed SporeShip, with some engines. I do want to have this Miner to be closest to their HW as possible, thus, I select "abundant asteroids". If it is far away at a single asteroid, and there are many ColonyShips on that planet, I probably loose a turn or two.

Did you notice that you can get some Scouts for free when trading techs? Although I don't need them , I'll always take them and destroy them to get an additional 25bc.

Another thing is that you don't want that the AI's built anything at all - no planetary improvments, no ships, nothing - because all these stuff costs money, and that early in the game, the AI's do usually rushbuy them and thereby waste alot of money. And this is ultimately your loss. Therefore, I'll ARC'ed them as Breeder, because more people means more money.

Another thing is that you should have 3 planets instead of 2 - because with 2 planets you only can research 3 techs at one turn. But, for example, I will always research "Translator, Interstellar Governments, Alliances, Interstellar Republic" in one turn - and still have as much research carryover left to be able to research "Diplomatic Relations, Advanced Diplomacy & Expert Diplomacy" on the next turn - which gives you a much better diplomacy rating than Star Democracy alone.

Hence, ARC'ed your "Homeworld"-tag to "New Iconia II" - then 3 planets will be present in the game. You can colonize "New Iconia V" on turn 1 (with only 1b people) and built a lab there, too. Upgrade the Miner to a Colony-ship, and colonize "New Iconia" on turn 2. Sometimes you'll get a +58 research bonus as an colonization-event. If then there is a PreCursorLibrary or else, this will be good research-planet, too.

Another thing is that you start out with 8.100b people on your HW - and if those 3 planets are very close to each other you can buy another ColonyShip and ferry pop around so that there will be 2700/2700/2700 people on your planets. This will generate some popgrow (Soc-score) and also increases your Economic-income by 30-40%, thus a better Economic score (you can break 1k with it easily). Still, you need more money for it, and this is probably an option when playing against 3 AI's.

--------------------------------------------------
From : GmOOnii
Sent: 3/24/2010 11:13:10 AM

Miaden666

I made some changes, (I haven't done the three planet thingy, yet) I found out my way and your way are the same in average.

Bad points: Thalan had over 19,000bc but only would give me less than 500bc for Star Democracy  in 5 games (1 bust game because Thalan didn't make any scouts at all) unlike  Drengin/Korath  would give me 500bc to 600bc average for Star Democracy and I am used to getting around 5,000bc  but now because of changes getting 3,000bc.

Good points: I don't why but I saw an increase in my scores. I had 1 P-lab and 2 L-Lab (900%) and got 99,050 points but in the past I got around 95,000 points with the same set up.

When you get done with your write up, you can send it page by page like I have.

Here is page 3 of 6:

Third Phase:   Are You Ready To Ruuuuuumble!!!

Auto Save on every turn and make you Save on: Jan 1^st, Feb 1^st, Mar 1^st, and Apr 1^st.

January 1^st Save: My Track: -80 bc/ 193tp. Tech A Research Xeno Research. 1) Rush-buy a lab on your best research bonus tile. Always use the longest-term lease when making purchases because you’ll be rush-buying everything, even ships to be upgraded so only research production is needed. Click on Research Focus button at the top of the planet screen. 2) Set production slider to 100% and tax slider to 69% taxes. (red 44% morale is bad) Set secondary sliders to 100% research and 0% military and 0% social. 3) Your Space Miner has a mission called NotSoFar so send it toward (travel time) 11 week mark that in the direction of (It’s just beyond your influence radius, like one grid square away.) Drengin Empire (farthest one). If there is another planetary system very close to yours, start moving your Flagship towards it to look for a minor civ but more than likely there will be no other systems nearby so just put it on auto-survey, but keep watch on it so that it doesn’t enter any wormholes, because on this size map it will likely end up way out of its operational range and it will happen and it will a bust for your Flagship. Colonize the secondary planet (Make sure you click on research focus at the top of the planet screen) if there is one with your Colony Ship, if not put in orbit around your home world. Go to your Ship Yard and build a no engine construction ship this will be the First of four ships you use in this game (Data is below) and save it for the next game.

             Jupiter Class Auxiliary Ship, Construction 

          Modules                                    Modules                                    Modules

January 8^th: My Track: -147bc/238tp. Use path Tech A Research Advanced Computing and automatic goes to Basic Miniaturization. First rush-buy any labs on bonus tiles then do upgrades. For this strategy it’s almost always a waste of money to buy a lab that isn’t on a bonus tile.

January 15^th: My Track: -348bc/477tp.  Use path Tech A Research Research Centers, if you only have one Precursor library. Use Path Tech B Research Planetary Improvements and automatic goes to Xeno Economics. and Xeno Trade Centers, if (you should have over 700tp) you have two or more Precursor libraries. The strategy diverges here based upon your research tiles. Rush buy the Technological Capital. Go to your Ship Yard and build a two engine Construction ship this will be the Second of four ships (Data is below) and save it for the next game. Now find your Space Miner and move it towards the 9 week mark after you move it’s ok to (but not before you move) update to the two engine Construction ship so it will keep moving in the next turn.

            Neptune Class Auxiliary Ship, Construction 

          Modules                                    Modules                                    Modules

January 22^nd: My Track: -490bc/652tp. If you are below 716tp, you might want to research Research Academies for a Research Coordination Center but if you do, (so you can go back and do it differently) make sure you save it first because you wouldn’t be able to research any of the Trade techs before March 1^st. Use path Tech A Research Planetary Improvements and automatic

Gmoonii

--------------------------------------------------
From : Maiden666
Sent: 3/24/2010 4:38:13 PM

GmOOnii,

I just finished the write-up. I kept it very basic because I realize that our own playstyles are pretty much different, thus, you need to adapt my walkthrough to your own methods and figure out, how it best works for you.

Re: your last massage.

You can pretty much believe me that the Thalans are one of the better choices in such a game, I've played like 150 games against them and am always able to break 110k with 2 libraries with ease. GmOOnii, you can't rate techtrading from a single tech (like you did with Star Democracy) because different races to have a different preferences in techs. It's actually visible in an .xml-file in your installation folder, if you want I can send you it so you might take a look at it.

All-in-all I've never been able to observe them having 19.000 bcs - that is way TOO much. Usually, they have like 8.000bcs, and I'm most likely getting 5-6k bcs from them all the time.

However, techbrokering isn't techbrokering - there are different and better ways, esp. order of trade, own diplomacy-rating etc, so there's probably pretty much a difference from what I do to what you do.

Nevertheless, here's something you can try out this WE, and best luck for surpassing the fishheads. Here we go:

SuperDiplomat ZYW's

special edition for GmOOnii

Setup:
Galaxy: Gigantic
Allow surrenders: checked
SuperAbilities: checked
Habitable Planets: rare
Number of planets: rare
Number of stars: rare
Star Density: Tight clusters
Anomalies: abundant
Number of asteroids: rare
Technology rate: Very fast
Number of Minor races: 0

This setup is optimized for to have as less planets as can be.
No Minors, because their planets can have PreCursor-labs as well.
Asteroid rare for lesser processing time, and lesser AI intention to built Miners.

Enemy ARC:
AI's: Thalan (#1 slot AI), Yor, Arcean, Iconian
SuperAbility: SuperBreeder
Homestar: Thalis
Homeworld: Thalia
Racial: 1) Economy, 2) Morale, 3) Pop grow
Political Party: Federalists
Race behaviour: Thalan
Ethic: saintly
Natural abilities: 35%
Agression: peaceful 0
Financial resources: 100%
CPU usage: normal 0%

Allow AI to use max CPU: unchecked

These 4 AI's all start out with "Xeno Economics" which gives them a 10% economic bonus right off the start.
They are diplomatically weak, and seem to preserve their money.
They bring in these additional techs: (which don't have to be researched then)
- Space Militarization
- Galactic Warfare
- Ion Drive
- Xeno Industrial Theory
- Xeno Economics
- Starship Defenses
- Armour Theory
This setup allows them to have best tax-income, and keeps them away from rushbuying everything.

Own ARC:
Altarians
SuperAbility: SuperDiplomat

Homestar: New Iconia

Alignment: Saintly

Homeworld: New Iconia II

Political Party: Technologists
Racial: Research: 4 pts Economics:  4 pts, Morale: 1pt; Defense: 1pt

In the "choose opponents" screen put the Thalans in the first slot. Pay attention that the other AI's go into the #2-#4 slots.
Difficulty: suicidal
Intelligence: ultimate
Relations: Friendly

When the game starts pay attention that there are 5 players listed on the "Quarterly report" popup -if not, re-start DA, and try again by changing the slot-positioning of the AI's.

Gameplay:

This is for a setup with, at least, 2 PreCursorLibrary-tiles.

Generally:
Always adjust the tax-slider so that approval is at least 20%.
Keep production at 100% throughout the game.
Always lease-buy a lab + ship on any planet/starport in any turn.
Check autosave and set to "0".
Always quicksave before ending turn, so you can go back and choose another branch in the

techtree if the research can't be done properly. Use research-carryover if necessary.
Always buy/trade for any military vessels that the AI will built. Ignore all other ships

completely.
Don't offer your treaties.


1.
Lease-buy Lab on best tile.
Colonize "New Iconia V" first (this turn or the next) an lease Starport. Leasebuy Tiny Hull  on both planets.
Set sliders to 0/80/20.
Upgrade Miner to stock ColonyShip.
Send Flagship to auto-survey.
Research "Xeno research"

2.
Adjust sliders to 0/0/100.
Colonize first "New Iconia V" (if not done already) and "New Iconia". Try to get Research-bonus colonization event on New Iconia, or the StarShip-bonus.
You need to configure your Minor/Colonizer in turn 1 so that these two planets can be colonized during this turn.
Colonize "New Iconia 5" with only 1b people.
If situation allows it - ferry pop around.
Research "Advanced Computing", "Basic Miniaturization" & "Enhanced Miniaturization".
If you can't get enough research production although you built labs on all 3 worlds - abandon game.
If you have a fair rp-output rather built also a 3rd Starport on "New Iconia".
Leasebuy Tiny Hulls everywhere.

3.
Upgrade all Hulls to Tiny Constructors. You will be using these Constructors to built 4

Economy StarBases in your system.
However, from now on, leasebuy a Tiny Constructor every turn on "New Iconia II & V", and a blank Cargo Hull on "New Iconia". Leave the Cargo Hull sitting in the planet.
Built TechCapital.
Research "Universal Translator" - "Interstellar Republic".
Alternately you can research "Sensors I-IV" if not enough RP (and built Nano Recorders, then)

4.
Research "Diplomatic Relations", "Advanced Diplomacy " & "Expert Diplomacy".
Adjust taxes so that the elections will be won.
Be always mindful to adjust taxes once your economy is below 0, as this gives a moral penalty and at 19% a population decrease will occur.

5.
Adjust taxes back.
If you've lost the elections simply load the autosave and prepare for the elections to happen on this very turn.
Contact all AI's and trade for bc'S for techs. After that, declare war on #1 AI.
Take all their research-treaties.
Everytime you run out of money quicksave, reload and contact the remaining AI's again to techbroker.
Research "Shield Defense Theory", "Deflectors", "Enhanced Deflectors" & "Advanced Deflectors".

6.
Keep building SB's and labs, buying ships.
Research "Xeno-Ethics" and "Good and Evil". Choose good alignment.

7.
Don't load the autosave this turn.
If you've finished building the 4 SB's check if the AI's do have any Factory-techs (besides

"Xeno Industrial Theory" so that your Starbases can be upgraded.
If no more upgrades are available buy Cargo Hulls everywhere and send them all to "New Iconia", until 10 Cargo Hulls are orbiting there.
Then overbuilt all Starports with labs.
Research "Superior Deflectors" & "Shield I-III"

8.
Keep on buying labs'n'ships.
Research "Majesty" and "Total Majesty".

9.
Now you can sell all techs you want to all AI's, draining them out of their whole money.
However, don't sell any yellow Diplo-techs to them.
Built the Spin Control Center on New Iconia.
Research "Subspace Rebounder".

10.
Research "Space Weapons", Laser I-III".

11.....
Right now you have everything you need to end the game. However, if you still have money left, and/or the AI's do still possess money, then keep on building labs and research whatever you like.


-1.
No more research possible.
If you've run out of money it is time to finish the game.
Design a Cargo Hull ship with one weapon and all the rest Subspace Rebounder.
Upgrade all 10 Cargo Hulls under the SCC to this design.

-0/End.
This is the 2nd turn after no more research is possible.
Contact all AI's and trade for all their ships. Then declare war on all.
Quicksave and reload.
Contact all AI's again and offer peace in exchange for their homeworld.

Finish.

If you have problem with the swindle - for example, the enemy will not give his planet for peace, then you won't be able to complete the game. There are several factors that can cause this:

1) a broken treaty ("they don't trust us" diplo-penalty) Solution: None - never offer your own treaty

2) not enough diplomatic power. Solution: Rushbuy the 'Diplomatic Translators', 'Galactic Bazaar' and/or 'Galactic Showcase'

3) armed Fighters orbiting enemy homeworld. Solution: always buy enemy Fighters or don't sell any weapons to them.

4) no enough ships under SCC. Solution: buy more Cargo Hulls.

5) #1 AI refuses peace. Solution: quicksave and reload. Try again.

I'm able to score over 140k with 1 PreCursorLab easily, against 5 enemies. You can of course change the number of enemies like you want - more will give you more money, but you will have to take more time for Control-N.

3 enemies for a fast game, and 5 for a bigscore game seems best. With 2 or 3 PreCursorLabs it will be possible to break 150k in score.

By the way GmOOnii - this writeup is our mutual SECRET, okay? Please preserve it well. If you got any questions you can always PM me here, but please no open messages in the GalCiv2 forums. We don't want to arise any suspision, do we not? X)

Enjoy!

--------------------------------------------------
From : GmOOnii
Sent: 3/25/2010 2:26:18 AM

Maidnen66

I have played two more games with 3 planets, I am very impressed with you. Can you do that with Thala? Get 3 planets in Thalis homestar. My first game was bust because I forgot to save right off the bat and to make matters worse it had 3 P-Labs and 1 more P-Lab on the second planet. I forgot to adjust my sliders for taxes and research. Then I messed up my NotSoFar Mission and the upgrade for construction ship took 168 weeks because I did not setup the star base close enough to the Thalans. The second game was 104,000 points and it had 2 P-Labs but I could done better if I just remember to save it!

  Well, I must of did somethng right then because every game now Thalan have around 19,000bc and they don't like buying or building scouts or sharing their money with me. Wait a minute if they can do it in two months then we must find how so we can do it too, right? I do see your point and I was  just giving you a report (good and bad points) on how it is working for me, once you have all six pages of my ZYW, you can help but so far it is helping. oh yes I am starting to hit the upper 90,000s  with only one lab because of your help.  

Here is 4 of 6

January 22^nd: My Track: -490bc/652tp. If you are below 716tp, you might want to research Research Academies for a Research Coordination Center but if you do, (so you can go back and do it differently) make sure you save it first because you wouldn’t be able to research any of the Trade techs before March 1^st. Use path Tech A Research Planetary Improvements and automatic (sometimes it will not) goes to Xeno Economics and Xeno Trade Centers. Use Path Tech B Research Universal Translator and automatic goes to Interstellar Governments and Alliances. Rush buy more labs if you can afford the research cost each turn, or upgrade ones you already have. To determine how far to take this, take a look at how much you are losing per turn, and calculate if you have enough to stay afloat (and keep producing research) through the turn of Feb 22^nd. Cut it as close as you can to maximize your research score. Go to your two engine Construction ship to make sure it’s on track to your 11 week mark which is now 5 week mark.

February 1^st Save: My Track: -546bc/740tp. Use path Tech A Research Translator and automatic goes to Interstellar Governments and Alliances. Use Path Tech B Research Interstellar Republic automatic goes to Star Democracy. The game automatically switch governments to Interstellar Republic then to Star Democracy, just click yes each time then (this is the best time to do it!) you need to lower taxes so that your morale is around (yellow) 57%. You don’t want to lose your ruling party vote because of your party bonuses. Any time your vote goes against you just reload and adjust your morale to 60% or higher. You might continue with lab building & upgrading, keeping in mind your cash flow, as noted above. Path A: Research Diplomatic Relations, Advanced Diplomacy, and Expert Diplomacy. Path B: Research the first three yellow techs.

February 8^th: My Track: -602bc/799tp. Use path Tech A Research Interstellar Republic and automatic goes to Star Democracy. Use Path Tech B Research Diplomatic Relations and automatic goes to Advanced Diplomacy and Expert Diplomacy. You are almost always done with lab-building and upgrading at this point, although with cash anomalies you can take it further.

February 15^th: My Track: -661bc/859tp. Use path Tech A Research Diplomatic Relations and automatic goes to Advanced Diplomacy and Expert Diplomacy. Use path Tech B Research Trade and automatic goes to Advanced Trade and Master Trade.

February 22^nd: My Track: -661bc/917tp. Use path Tech A Research Trade and automatic goes to Advanced Trade and Master Trade. Use Path Tech B Research Xeno Entertainment and automatic goes to Xeno Business and Xeno Business. As noted above, this is the last turn you need to stay above -500bc with the money you started with. Buy the Economic Capital on your home world if you have the money to do so.

March 1^st Save: My Track: -647bc/976tp Use Path Tech A Research New Propulsion Techniques and automatic goes to Ion Drive and Impulse Drive. (You need Impulse Drive!) Contact the Drengin Empire and trade for their space miner and two scouts, look for the highest production number like MO v1 20 or MO v1 26 because they will be the closet to the Drengin’s Home World. To trade for these three ships you can use all of your influence 3000 to 4000 points plus your Economic treaty and Research Treaty and sometimes (but sometimes you can get his Galactic Warfare too or not, but you do need this tech, I forgot this time) Lord Kona will want more so add Toxic Atmosphere Reductor and Alliances. Make sure click on his 100bc (money) because you might get little extra like 85 to 500bc (this time I got 451bc and yes this write up was based on an actual ZYW game I played) Once you have the three ships trade all your techs away, one tech at a time, for cash. You get more value out of selling individual techs. Sell in order of the most expensive techs to the least, because you will get more money this way. The first tech I traded was Star Democracy and got 603bc then Interstellar Republic and got 463bc which is good because sometimes it is lower. Next was Master Trader and got for 463bc and next was Expert Diplomacy and got 302bc which was very nice. Next was Alliances and got for 241bc, and next was Advanced Diplomacy and got 124bc, and next was Xeno Trade Center and got 113bc. The AI seems to develop “trade-weariness” gradually, and will give less relative value for each subsequent tech, so

Thank you for write up and a walkthru has dates like the one I am giving you but I don't mind. I will have to decode into a walkthru and give it back to you   so it you can see how I am using it and help but I will give you credt like did the last person that help me. It will take a few months to put all together and then you should see my scores change.

Agian thank you for all your help.  Afeast at my empire for giving  Saint Mina run for her money in battle.

Gmoonii

--------------------------------------------------
From : Maiden666
Sent: 3/25/2010 4:56:01 PM

Allright GmOOnii, I can see it now. Hard to believe actually. What can I say. We need to find out what that caused immediately. In fact, all ZYW's score is based simply upon the fact to burn as much money as you can get by doing research. If you can have an enemy with that much money, there's surely a way then to transform this directly into points.

I hope I'm not bothering you now with too many questions...

Is that happening to the other races as well? Was it the first time you did use the Thalans as enemy?

How is your Thalan ARC? Could you copy and paste me the code of the Thalans's raceconfig.xml?

You write that they don't wanna give money to you. But in the screenshot they'd agree to the deal. What's happening if you press "send"? By the way, they actually *did* built Scouts, isn't it?

At what date is this happening? March 1st? Is this a MV-legal game, without any "Detected Cheat codes" flag?

Yes, if a player would get so much money then that would be a fine way for biggames. But as long as we can't see what caused that it's too early to say that this could be applied to the player as well. Don't know. But in a suicidal game, all the AI's do have an economic plus (from 170% to 200%) which is their advantage, but I think the player lacks this. Let me just take a look at their xml file and I'll say if the Altarians could be ARC'ed to this as well.

Well, I hope you give my writeup a try a bit more sooner. You will be surprised about the increase in score. And yes, if i were you, I'd quicksave every turn, esp. befoe clicking on turn - so you can go back any time to change the research direction to another branch.

Okay, hope to hear from you soon

Maiden666

--------------------------------------------------
From : GmOOnii
Sent: 3/25/2010 11:54:37 PM

Maiden666

No problems with asking questions but writing for the third time your answers is getting old. I do not like it when the screen goes white and it says false and I have to start all over.   

1 No, this not happening to the other races as well.  Yes, it is  the first time I use the Thalans as enemy.

2 How is your Thalan ARC??? ok, I guess.  The code of the Thalans's raceconfig.xml is below.

3 I think there is a misunderstanding here. They do give me money but it is not enough but I understand now about different races wanting different techs at different prices. Yes, they build scouts, but sometimes they don't or they build one scout.

4 This is happening on March 1st.  Yes, this is a MV-legal game, Yes, it is without any "Detected Cheat codes" flag.

_____________________________________________________________________

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1" standalone="yes"?>
<Races>
 <DataChecksum NoParse="1">
  <Ignore>FileID,DisplayName,Description,Homeworld,Homestar,RaceLeader,ShortEmpireName,Portrait,DefaultTradePortrait,DefaultTradeMovie,FriendlyTradeMovie,UnfriendlyTradeMovie,UnitedPlanetsMovie,Logo,SmallLogo,RaceColor,ShadowColor,UndefendedStarColor,DefendedStarColor,SectorColor,BaseColor,TrimColor,EngineColor,InterfaceColor,ShipStyle,ModuleStyle</Ignore>
 </DataChecksum>
 <Race Name="Thalan Empire">
  <ConfigVersion>25</ConfigVersion>
  <RaceID>8</RaceID>
  <CivType>4</CivType>
  <DisplayName>Thalan Empire</DisplayName>
  <Alignment>50</Alignment>
  <ShortEmpireName>Thalan</ShortEmpireName>
  <RaceLeader>Hithesius</RaceLeader>
  <Homeworld>Thala</Homeworld>
  <Homestar>Thalis</Homestar>
  <GeneratedDescription>0</GeneratedDescription>
  <Description>The Thalans are an insectoid race. They work via a hive mind and are incredibly productive, albeit not terribly creative or inventive. Because they are so different from others, they are less likely to culturally revolt.</Description>
  <AIPersonality>3</AIPersonality>
  <DialogueTag>Thalan</DialogueTag>
  <Portrait>D:\Game Files\GalCiv2\Gfx\Race\RaceImage08.png</Portrait>
  <DefaultTradePortrait>Gfx\Race\Trade_Race8_Neutral.png</DefaultTradePortrait>
  <DefaultTradeMovie>RaceImage08_neutral.bik</DefaultTradeMovie>
  <FriendlyTradeMovie>RaceImage08_happy.bik</FriendlyTradeMovie>
  <UnfriendlyTradeMovie>RaceImage08_angry.bik</UnfriendlyTradeMovie>
  <UnitedPlanetsMovie>RaceImage08_Small.bik</UnitedPlanetsMovie>
  <RobotMovie>NewsRobot_Alien</RobotMovie>
  <RobotImage>Gfx\Message_Alien</RobotImage>
  <RaceMusic>Race09</RaceMusic>
  <Logo>D:\Game Files\GalCiv2\Gfx\Race\RaceLogo08.png</Logo>
  <PoliticalParty>0</PoliticalParty>
  <RaceColor>255,100,255,255</RaceColor>
  <ShadowColor>146,110,73,255</ShadowColor>
  <UndefendedStarColor>185,0,191,255</UndefendedStarColor>
  <DefendedStarColor>185,0,191,255</DefendedStarColor>
  <SectorColor>255,100,255,255</SectorColor>
  <BaseColor>0,163,50,255</BaseColor>
  <TrimColor>112,0,170,255</TrimColor>
  <EngineColor>0,255,0,255</EngineColor>
  <InterfaceColor>185,0,191,255</InterfaceColor>
  <ShipStyle>Thalan Empire Style</ShipStyle>
  <ModuleStyle>2</ModuleStyle>
  <Tech>HyperDrive</Tech>
  <Tech>Space Militarization</Tech>
  <Tech>XenoEconomics</Tech>
  <Tech>XenoIndustrialTheory</Tech>
  <Tech>Xeno Engineering</Tech>
  <Tech>StellarCartography</Tech>
  <AIAbilities>50</AIAbilities>
  <Aggression>50</Aggression>
  <FinancialResources>100</FinancialResources>
  <CPUUsage>0</CPUUsage>
  <AbilitiesDescription>+ Highly Productive- Weak Military</AbilitiesDescription>
  <SuperAbility>4</SuperAbility>
  <ResearchAdvantage>Culture</ResearchAdvantage>
  <ECONOMICS>25</ECONOMICS>
  <Ability0>30</Ability0>
  <WEAPONS>0</WEAPONS>
  <Ability1>0</Ability1>
  <DEFENSE>0</DEFENSE>
  <Ability2>0</Ability2>
  <SPEED>0</SPEED>
  <Ability3>0</Ability3>
  <MORALE>0</MORALE>
  <Ability4>20</Ability4>
  <POPULATIONGROWTH>0</POPULATIONGROWTH>
  <Ability5>5</Ability5>
  <SOCIALPRODUCTION>33</SOCIALPRODUCTION>
  <Ability6>0</Ability6>
  <MILITARYPRODUCTION>33</MILITARYPRODUCTION>
  <Ability7>0</Ability7>
  <RESEARCH>0</RESEARCH>
  <Ability8>0</Ability8>
  <INFLUENCE>0</INFLUENCE>
  <Ability9>0</Ability9>
  <TRADE>0</TRADE>
  <Ability10>0</Ability10>
  <DIPLOMACY>0</DIPLOMACY>
  <Ability11>0</Ability11>
  <HITPOINTS>0</HITPOINTS>
  <Ability12>0</Ability12>
  <REPAIR>0</REPAIR>
  <Ability13>0</Ability13>
  <SENSORS>0</SENSORS>
  <Ability14>0</Ability14>
  <ESPIONAGE>0</ESPIONAGE>
  <Ability15>0</Ability15>
  <SOLDIERING>0</SOLDIERING>
  <Ability16>0</Ability16>
  <INTERESTRATES>0</INTERESTRATES>
  <Ability17>0</Ability17>
  <PLANETQUALITY>0</PLANETQUALITY>
  <Ability18>0</Ability18>
  <TRADEROUTES>0</TRADEROUTES>
  <Ability19>0</Ability19>
  <CRIME>0</CRIME>
  <Ability20>0</Ability20>
  <CABINET>0</CABINET>
  <Ability21>0</Ability21>
  <RANGE>0</RANGE>
  <Ability22>0</Ability22>
  <LUCK>0</LUCK>
  <Ability23>0</Ability23>
  <COURAGE>0</COURAGE>
  <Ability24>0</Ability24>
  <CREATIVITY>0</CREATIVITY>
  <Ability25>0</Ability25>
  <GOVERNMENT>0</GOVERNMENT>
  <Ability26>0</Ability26>
  <LOYALTY>0</LOYALTY>
  <Ability27>0</Ability27>
  <LOGISTICS>6</LOGISTICS>
  <Ability28>0</Ability28>
  <MINIATURIZATION>10</MINIATURIZATION>
  <Ability29>0</Ability29>
  <HOMEPLANETQUALITY>0</HOMEPLANETQUALITY>
  <Ability30>0</Ability30>
  <COLONIZEHEAVYGRAVITY>0</COLONIZEHEAVYGRAVITY>
  <Ability31>0</Ability31>
  <COLONIZEWATERWORLD>0</COLONIZEWATERWORLD>
  <Ability32>0</Ability32>
  <COLONIZETOXIC>0</COLONIZETOXIC>
  <Ability33>0</Ability33>
  <COLONIZEBARREN>0</COLONIZEBARREN>
  <Ability34>0</Ability34>
  <COLONIZERADIOACTIVE>0</COLONIZERADIOACTIVE>
  <Ability35>0</Ability35>
 </Race>
</Races>
______________________________________________________________________

I am decoding it now and start on it today but I will not submit any scores until I have aleast 10 saved up for Yoda to put him in the top 25 then all three of my Characters should be in the top 25. I will tell my scores and give my report and ask questions.

SuperDiplomat ZYW's  special edition for GmOOnii  is a write up is for DA, right, not TA, right? How many months does it take to do it? What kind of ships are used?

Here is 5 of 6: one more to go and you will get next time

do the expensive ones first for optimal amounts of cash. Now to complete the NotSoFar mission, move your two engine construction ship to the 11 week mark and build any type of star base there. Now you can upgrade (make sure you complete NotSoFar mission first) your new space miner in the asteroid field at the Drengin’s Home World to a no engine construction ship with nothing but a constructor module, using the longest term lease. (If you are too far away, it will take 168 weeks to upgrade.) This should take 3 or 4 weeks depending on how far away your home world is and with your NotSoFar mission it becomes 3 weeks (Well this game it was 4 weeks, go figure). Set your two newly acquired scouts to move towards the Drengin’s Home World but keep an eye on them so they will pass by the Drengin’s Home World or let them sit where they are until you have your star base built if they are very close to the Drengin’s Home World. Look at your cash flow and maybe build/upgrade more labs, depending on if can stay solvent through March 22^nd, which is the last turn you will need to produce any research. As before, cut it as close as possible to maximize tech score.

March 8^th: My Track: -659bc/1035tp Use path Tech A Research Galactic Warfare and automatic goes to Space Miniaturization and Space Weapons Spore Weapons. Buy the Economic Capital on your home world.

March 15^th: My Track: -658bc/1035tp Use Path Tech A Research Beam Weapon Theory and automatic goes to Laser Mark I (You need Laser Mark I!) and Laser Mark II.

March 22^nd: My Track: (I’m in the red -511) -66bc/1035tp Use Path Tech A Research Spore Weapons. Your constructor may be upgraded by now. It will be out of range, but just click on the closest spot within its maximum range and it will move into clear space. Try to pick a spot within in its range so that the direction will move it into clear space and not into another asteroid or sun or planet. Build any type of star base there in that clear space. Go to your Ship Yard and one engine and one Beam weapon, Beam Frigates this will be the Third of four ships (Data is below).

             Mercury Class Frigate, Beam                                                                           Beam                                        Shield

           Modules                                    Modules                                    Modules

April 1^st Save: My Track: (I am in the red-575) -64bc/1035tp Use Path Tech A Research Xeno Entertainment and automatic goes to Xeno Business and Xeno Business. or whatever you want. If you haven’t already, move your constructor and build a star base. Your scouts should now be next to the enemy home world. Go to your Ship Yard and build a no engine Spore Frigate this will be the Fourth of four ships (Data is below), I use the scout ship to make it and save it for the next game and that is the last time you ever have to make a ship for the ZYW games. Now upgrade one to a ship with one (Impulse) engine and one laser (Laser Mark I) I use FFB-Md-Alta Def-Bc the most and upgrade the other to a ship with nothing but a Spore module. These ships will be done next week if you are close to the star base you just built. Now you are ready to win this game!

GmOOnii

--------------------------------------------------
From : Maiden666
Sent: 3/26/2010 8:51:32 AM

Using your xml-text I was able to reproduce this. I don't know yet what caused this. After just overflowing your ARC I think the only real difference are the AiPersonality- and Resources-tags. I will search again today after work is over.

One thing: The AiAbilities tag is ony 50. Financial Resources is onyl 100.

In a suicidal game, they are, at least, 85 and 170. The game changes these values automatically, and if you change them to something more low - then the game won't be a suicidal anymore. So question to you: Did you submit any game with that setup - and  does the MV show suicidal?

GmOOnii, I know the GalCiv2 site is pretty much a nuissance, but you can mabye write on a spreadsheet and simply comp and paste that once you're finished writing, so you don't have to do it all over again.

However, wheneveer this happens to me I simply use the "Forward" button on my browser and then my writing does re-appear again.

About the SwindleZYW: It is just a ZYW, such a game takes 30-60mins, it's really a fast game. You only need two type of ships - empty Cargo Hulls and empty Tiny Hulls. The Cargo Hulls you upgrade late in the game to max defense so you can swindle, and the other Tiny Hulls you upgrade to Tiny Constructors (once you got Enhanced Miniaturization) so you can built some EconSB's in your system - which will increase your research-production output.

But this is explained in the walkthrough, too.

So far so good, I say bye and leave for work

Maiden666

--------------------------------------------------
From : GmOOnii
Sent: 3/26/2010 12:53:09 PM

Maiden666

No, I didn't change AiPersonality- and Resources-tags. Yes, I did submit all my games with that setup and I check my characters, MV does show suicidal but Saint Mina should be suicidal on her medal, instead it shows Obscene.  Here's what I will do, I will start over and make new ARC's.

I played (Draco) three more games with 3 planets and added Thalan and Korath. I hit 109,000 with 2 P-Labs. In my games, things have changed, Thalans are giving me more money now, for example I got 590 for Star  Democracy and they had over 6 scouts and they still have around 19,000bc. Now I am getting around 4,000bc to 5,000bc from them. I had two games that my Constructor Ship got stuck in asteroids for two turns and my score drop to 92,000bc in both games but Draco should be in the Top 25 again.

You will have drop a comment in my empire thread about a blind date and some seals that JackIV took from Draco.  I am just having fun with my war with the Fish Heads. The outer systems (SeeA) are about to fall and then it's to the 4 Inner Systems (BeeA) 

Here the last page 6 of 6: It's already out dated because of the your ideas and tactics. What do you think of it so far?

             Jupiter Class Frigate, Spore-Killer

           Modules                                    Modules                                    Modules

April 8^th: My Track: (I am in the red-875) -79bc/859tp Use your fighter to take out any ships in orbit on the enemy home world and hopeful Lord Kona has only three ships( he had 4 Colony ships so I choose my best Frigate FFB-Me-Alta Def Bd.) Use your Spore Ship to Spore them! Check Mate! Game over. My score for this game was 92,750 which is good for me. Click yes to submit the game to Metaverse.

End of Third Phase: Repeat and Rinse again! After Thoughts

You got only a small taste of 7 different ships (I add three more Beam Frigates) of three types of in this game. In my longer games I have hundreds of ships.  Will I hope this help you scores.

Diplomacy: If you do happen (It has never happened Yet) to encounter a minor civ, trade for all their techs and money. This will give you a nice cash boost with which you can expand your research production. Cash anomalies (100bc, 250bc, 1000bc) can be very important for this too. In my best games (over 110k) I had at least one decent cash anomaly.

Any game completed before April 8^th will trip a cheat flag and not count for Metaverse scoring, so you shouldn’t finish any sooner.

“Overall, the most important idea behind this strategy is to maximize your tech score, and Spore the enemy before they have a chance to do anything. Have fun!” Words from KzintiPatriarch

Credits

v1.00 First Write Up By KzintiPatriarch on unknown Date, 2007 maybe???

v2.00 Modified and Second Write Up By GmOOnii on February 14, 2010.

v2.10 Modified By GmOOnii on March 17, 2010. More updates will come.

Notes: Only give this write up to Adepta Sororitas Members, please.

--------------------------------------------------
From : Maiden666
Sent: 3/26/2010 2:59:08 PM

Allright, well I fully knew that this is mostly based on KP's effort. In the meanwhile, KP updated his ZYW strategy in some fields mostly because of ideas from my side. Not saying now his skills are better or worse than mine, but he did design a pretty fast game (which he used to submit +1500 games for his empire) that did skip all unnecessary micromanagement.

On the other hand I do like micromanagement very well, and always try to quench the last drop of score out of a game. And there's some difference thus in our playstyle. If you want I canintroduce you to some of these ideas, some have been presented already in the Swindle ZYW writeup.

Basically, I only trade for 1 Scout and 1 Minor from each race on 1st March. I will upgrade the Scout to a Constructor - it takes 3-4 weeks, thus, on 1st April I have a Constructor ready at the enemy homeworld which will be turned into a starbase.

I will also move out that Miner out of the asteroid field - if I can I'll move it towards the enemy planet. If this is not possible I'll leave it simply resting besides that asteroid field (not in it!).

Once the base is built on 1st April I upgrade the Minor to a ship that has 1 Laser, 1 SporeModule and as many engines as does fit. I can do this because I usually research the engines branch of the techtree sometimes in the game - because I need the speed bonuses and engines for the "NotSoFarAway"-missiobuy an, as well as the SurveyShip can use that passive +1 speed bonus from ImpulseDrive.

Usually my SporeShip then has 4 points to move and can destroy all enemy orbiting ships and still invade the HW. But most likely, I'll upgrade a Scout to an Constructor that only takes 3 weeks for the upgrade - that is, the base will be built on 22nd March. Hence the Sporeship can attack on 1st April - and if not all orbiting ships are cleared it can re-attack on April 8th, finishing the rest off. In this szenario however, it is utmost important NOT to trade any weapons to the AI - because if they rushbuy an armed Fighter you won't be able to end the game. Well, at least not with the #1 AI - because with the others, you could re-contact them ASAP, make peace, buy that Fighter, and spore. But it doesn't work with the first AI because of the 4 months delay when declaring war.

Also, I usually don't play a map where i need to send that ship on a "NotSoFarAway"Mission. I abandon these maps. I will always trade for any ScoutShip, then check which one gets upgraded in time - and destroy all the others. You get money for this.

My own Miner I turn into a ColonyShip, to colonize "New Iconia". Did you have any ColonizationEvents already there? You need to colonize "New Iconia" AFTER "New Iconia V" has been colonized.

Endly, I'll buy another Big Colony Ship (when all 3 planets are very near to each other) and ferry population around, so that there are 2700b people on all 3 planets. I'll have to built a +10 Moral structure on New Iconia V then, so that Moral is 20% or above. You'll get 30% more money from taxes out of this - and you don't have to built the "Economic Capital" instead I built Research Coordination Center.

So far so good. I also have thosr rich Thalans in my game. Don't know yet what that caused but I hope I'll find out soon.

-----------------------------------------

GmOOnii

Sent Mar 26, 2010 22:43

Maiden666

Ok, If you want you can canintroduce some of these ideas to me. Love copy and paste.

The NotSoFarAway mission was to make sure that it didn't take 168 weeks for miners to update to constructors and extends my range if I come across 3 P-labs on my homeworld. If the my opponents are close enough, I don't need NotSoFarAway mission so I make colony ship to ferry people.

Yes, I did get a ColonizationEvent but I dont think I got credit for it because it was evil and it didn't change my very good alignment, it was +24% to research for sucking his brains for infomation. Next I will check my data screen and see there too.

Thank you about me teasing.

Here is what Kp gave to work with, it has alot loop holes in it. I was confused about the first yellow techs and double research some techs. Can you check it out and see how well I decoded it?

Anyway, here is some help for you and your empire, some information on doing Zero Year Wins:

Advanced Race Customization (ARC) – in the raceconfig.xml file there are a few things you can modify while still being Metaverse legal.  The two important things to change for the ZYW strategy are the homestar and super ability fields.  You can use Wordpad or Notepad to edit the file.

ARC setup:     Altarians

                        homestar: Iconis

                        super ability: super annihilator (value = 10)

You also want to use ARC for the enemy civ changing the homestar to Thalis as well, so that they only have one planet.  Put all their ability points into trade routes and trading.  This should make them build lots of scouts and tradeships, which are harmless to you.

Galaxy setup:  Gigantic, rare everything except anomalies which are abundant, one opponent, 8 minor races, tech-trading on, blind exploration off, super-abilities enabled.

Race setup:    economy – 4 pts (+30%)

                        research – 4 pts (+20%)

                        morale – 2 pts (+15%)

                        technologist party

Set relations with the enemy to anything other than “unknown”, and make sure they appear in the first picture on the screen where you choose your enemies.  This will allow you to speak to them on March 1^st without actually finding them with a ship.

To get a good ZYW score you need research bonus tiles.  I wait until I get at least 1 Precursor library.  To get an extraordinary score, you will need at least 2 Precursor libraries.  My best scores were from games where I had 3 libraries.  You will also need to CTRL-N until your home system and the enemy’s are in close proximity to each other.

The way to measure if can stay above -500bc until you need to, is just take the amount/turn that you are losing, and multiply it by the number of turns you need to keep producing research.  This will tell you if you have built too many labs and are losing too much money.

Jan 1^st:  Set production slider to 100% and tax slider to 69% taxes.  Set secondary sliders to 100% research and 0% military and social.  You’ll be rush-buying everything, so only research production is needed.  Always use the longest-term lease.  Research Xeno Research.  Rush-buy a lab on your best research bonus tile.  Colonize the secondary.   Destroy your space miner as it has no use and costs bcs to maintain.  If there is another planetary system very close to yours, start moving your flagship towards it to look for a minor civ.  If there are no other systems nearby just put it on auto-survey, but keep watch on it so that it doesn’t enter any wormholes, because on this size map it will likely end up way out of its operational range.

Jan 8^th: Rush-buy labs on bonus tiles.  For this strategy it’s almost always a waste of money to buy a lab that isn’t on a bonus tile.  Research Advanced Computing and first Miniaturization tech.

Jan 15^th: Rush-buy the Tech Capital.  The strategy diverges here based upon your research tiles.   Path A:  If you only had one Precursor library, you will want to research Research Centers.  Path B:  If you had multiple libraries, research Planetary Improvements.

Jan 22^nd: Rush-buy more labs if you can afford the research cost each turn, or upgrade ones you already have.  To determine how far to take this, take a look at how much you are losing per turn, and calculate if you have enough to stay afloat (and keep producing research) through the turn of Feb 22^nd.  Cut it as close as you can to maximize your research score.  Path A: Research Planetary Improvements.  Path B: Research the first three “yellow” techs.

Feb 1^st: You might continue with lab building & upgrading, keeping in mind your cashflow, as noted above.  Path A:  Research Diplomatic Relations, Advanced Diplomacy, and Expert Diplomacy.  Path B: Research the first three yellow techs.

Feb 8^th: You are almost always done with lab-building/upgrading at this point, although with cash anomalies you can take it further.  Path A: Research Trade, Advanced Trade, & Master Trade.  Path B: Research Diplomatic Relations, Advanced Diplomacy, and Expert Diplomacy. 

Feb 15^th: Path A: Research Interstellar Republic & Star Democracy.  Switch government to Star Democracy and lower taxes so that your morale is at least in the mid-50s.  Path B: Research Trade, Advanced Trade, & Master Trade.

Feb 22^nd:  As noted above, this is the last turn you need to stay above -500bc with the money you started with.  Path A: Research Xeno Entertainment, Xeno Business, & Cultural Domination.  Path B: Research Interstellar Republic & Star Democracy.  Switch government to Star Democracy and lower taxes so that your morale is at least in the mid-50s.

March 1^st: Contact the enemy AI and trade for their space miner and at least two scouts, using your tech.  Master Trade and Star Democracy are particularly valuable, so you might get all three in one shot.  Once you have the three ships trade all your techs away, one tech at a time, for cash.  You get more value out of selling individual techs.  Sell in order of the most expensive techs to the least, because you will get more money this way.  The AI seems to develop “trade-weariness” gradually, and will give less relative value for each subsequent tech, so do the expensive ones first for optimal amounts of cash.  Your Research Treaty is particularly valuable, so trade that away early on.  Upgrade your new space miner at the enemy homeworld to a cargo hull with nothing but a constructor module, using the longest term lease.  This should take 3 or 4 turns depending on how far away your homeworld is.  Set your two newly acquired scouts to move towards the enemy homeworld.  Research the first three engine techs.  Look at your cashflow and maybe build/upgrade more labs, depending on if can stay solvent through March 22^nd, which is the last turn you will need to produce any research.  As before, cut it as close as possible to maximize tech score.

March 8^th: Research Galactic Warfare, Space Militarization, and Space Weapons.

March 15^th: Research beam weapons at least up to laser 1.

March 22^nd: Research Spore.  Your constructor may be upgraded by now.  It will be out of range, but just click on the closest spot within its maximum range and it will move into clear space.  Try to pick a spot within in its range so that the direction will move it into clear space and not into another asteroid.  Build a starbase, it doesn’t matter what kind.

April 1^st:   If you havent already, move your constructor and build a starbase.  Your scouts should now be next to the enemy homeworld.  Upgrade one to a ship with one Impulse engine and one laser.  Upgrade the other to a ship with nothing but a Spore module.  Path A: Research Extreme Entertainment.  Path B: Research Xeno Entertainment, Xeno Business, & Cultural Domination.  Adjust taxes to keep your morale in the mid-50s.  Buy the economic capital on your homeworld.

April 8^th:  Use your fighter to take out any ships in orbit on the enemy homeworld.  Spore them!  Game over.

Diplomacy:  If you do happen to encounter a minor civ, trade for all their techs and money.  This will give you a nice cash boost with which you can expand your research production.  Cash anomalies can be very important for this too.  In my best games (over 110k) I had at least one decent cash anomaly.

Any game completed before April 8^th will trip a cheat flag and not count for Metaverse scoring, so you shouldn’t finish any sooner.

Overall, the most important idea behind this strategy is to maximize your tech score, and Spore the enemy before they have a chance to do anything.

Have fun!                                  KzintiPatriarch

thank you for your help.

Gmoonii

I don't see that part accounted for.  It's certainly possible KP had too much on his plate and missed that much; we have all been at that point in some point in our lives, I imagine.  Not to drag this on any longer than it should go on, but it seems logical to me to follow up with a second PM if the first one fails to reply to what I've sent.

I understand why you could think that, yes.  However, there are some other things that in my mind are at least as significant, yet require no out-of-game alterations.  I imagine that it's much more a perfect storm of at least half a dozen factors, based on what I know.

Further, he's stated a few times that it took him many days to complete that game, and God only knows how long for the 1.5M.  WITH AHK.  Perhaps from an individual game perspective they're not possible to compete with using more "standard" strategies, but from a time standpoint (and this was the initial selling point of the classical ZYW game in the first place, as I understand it), even with points depreciation due to additional games, it is at best a tie, and the mega-ZYW quite possibly, probably even, loses to a generic ZYW "stack" (i.e. multiple games), as it were.

In summation:

-Maiden has posted supporting evidence for the explanation that it arose out of a misconfiguration, which then became "standard".

-Mumble has admitted he could have been more politically correct, and apologized for the action of the infiltration, albeit not the reasons behind it.

-KP has publicly and privately stated that since Kryo's standpoint is that it is cheating that is all there needs to be said, and that it will not be used by Kzinti members in Kzinti games.

-KP has admitted (somewhere, I forget where, this thread got 50% longer with Maiden's post, and is about to get longer with mine) that, in essence, this thread was unnecessary, and that it could have been handled better.

-It has been established as well as it can be that the belief that Mumble knew exactly what was going on is false, at least up to the point just prior to the infiltration.

-Kryo has stated that it is cheating and that, essentially, no one in their right mind could have thought it not to be, which is a horrendous overgeneralization.

I'll say it again: Aside from Maiden's documentation on the discovery of this phenomenon (which I see as separate from the events of the thread at large), I do not believe that there was, and I do not believe now that there IS, anything more that can be added to this thread's original issue in a positive way.

So can we please all act like adults for once (apologies for lumping everyone together) and either take our toys and go home (sadly, this would be better than what we have been doing), or discuss the relevant -game- issue like rational, civilized beings?  Or is this somehow not an appropriate thread for that?  Should we start a new one instead?

-

Perhaps it being an out-of-game change is significant enough for it to be called a cheat, but there are other out-of-game changes, notably home system change, that don't give rise to anything even approaching what this has become.

Is it then that it is assumed, or determined, that this is the one thing that causes Maiden to score so much higher?  I would point to Snark's commentary on the Swindle; it's within the realm of possibility to simply crush the AIs with pure brute force, but even if you farm the game for points, your score will be significantly lower.

So what is it, then?  Is it the combination of both of them?  Is it, as Kryo puts it, that the AI is "neutered"?  (Even though that does not appear to actually be as much of the case as he imagines?)  Does not an early enough Swindle accomplish the same thing with classic AIs?  The entire concept of the Swindle states that difficulty is irrelevant because the AI doesn't stand a chance; diplomacy is its weak spot, its blind spot, even.  So how much of a chance must the AI be given for it not to be considered cheating?  How horrible must the player be, or how terribly must the player handicap themself?

And if this is about score, I can solve that problem.  I can meet or beat any of Maiden's DL AI scores without using DL AIs (even the 1.5M Y0-which, to be fair, IS impressive, albeit not unexpected), and I'll offer you research timeline screenshots to prove it (as the one constant is they do not research, and I can't possibly give them all my research treaty, this should be sufficient proof).  I'd even go so far as to upload savegames, including an endgamesave, so you could see via the planet layout that it is the game I will have submitted.

I can say this with 100% confidence because I know and understand this game (with the exception of influence), possibly as well as Brad, or Cari.  I know what's possible and what isn't, and I know what kind of effects something has, even something like this.

Apologies for raining on your parade, Maiden.  For what it's worth, it was done in your defense; I'm glad you've enjoyed the spotlight, as it is not generally something I seek.

Are we to return to simply outcolonizing the AI, and beating the stuffing out of it in actual space battles?  Because, honestly, I'm totally cool with that.  I enjoy that style of play.

Final points:

Getting extra money from DLs is not as valuable as you would think; there is only so much money you can SPEND in this game.  The numbers are irrelevant, because we'd be assuming that you're able to take all of the AI's money every turn, which while I will grant is in the realm of possibility, I would further point out that most (albeit not all) players, even of the caliber that we are dealing with here, would not be able to pull that off.  It is much more realistic that you take 20k BCs off of them for one turn, or possibly two turns, and for the rest of the game they may as well be a classical AI, as far as finances go.  Please don't try to debate me on that point, at least.  I'm not interested in taking up even more space with the math it would entail.

Lastly, I've just opened up a new game, a Tiny all-rare because I wanted a very quick test of the DL AI's ability to fight back, since Kryo believes they are completely neutered, without having tested it himself.  As of July 1, I am actually beginning to see a military curve for these AIs, and I have no doubt that if I let them live long enough, they'll start declaring war on me and such.  The Drengin have already extorted me for money once, and that was I believe in May.  Granted, this requires that you trade them military tech, but I have even seen it recommended to trade them the first few levels, as there's not much else you can trade them when you first meet them.

I am very happy to continue the issues raised by this conversation in a manner such a SS has done!  

Unfortunately, this forum topic started as/has devolved into a very different subject matter...

Given a good rest tonight I will gladly create another topic in which these issues can be discussed, as I have quite a few reservations in regards to the matter on both sides. Feel free to do this before I get around to it.

I think this may be what have led to such...'hostility' for all involved. We all know how to discuss the intelligently, but the OP involves a serious matter (breaking into private forums) as well as hints of degradation. Mumble then further complicated this topic with his results - Dread Lords, Kryo (valid additions mind you, but for a conversation, not a post). Hostility in one matter leaks into another...defensive stances are taken...then the personal attacks begin. We all know the story here. Why are we slipping into it?

At best this topic is a discussion of whether or not it was wrong for Mumble (or anyone) to spy on private forums...That is a topic I have already given my opinion on. At worst it is an attack on Mumble...though I must admit, as Mumble felt the need to call out cheaters in his previously mentioned post, should we not also call out those who are cheating our trust?

-Scanian

However with that said I can't imagine anyone thinking that having been called out I'm going to sit around like milk toast and simply accept abuse without dishing some out.

That is in fact exactly what happened.

I will admit to not handling everything perfectly at every step of the way. Certainly SS is correct that I could have followed up with a 2nd PM to KP when I felt my issue was being being ignored. On the other hand I am not the only one guilty of not handling things perfectly. There's a certain amount of blame that can be collectively laid on the Kzinti which has gone totally unacknowledged. Certainly the fact that I was "right" at least as later affirmed by Kryo has not once been acknowledged. Also the fact that all my attempts at bringing up the subject both privately and publicly were in essence "blown off" has never been acknowledged either.

However I went into this with my eyes open. Earlier I mentioned that while I can and do apologize to the Kzinti Empire for spying I cannot really say I'm sorry because given the same set of circumstances I would do the same thing again. But I also knew full well that there was no way that I could spy on your forums without leaving tracks that made the detection of my spying inevitable.

So Jack's earlier statement that I wasn't sorry that I spied, I was only sorry I was caught spying is wrong on at least two counts. For one I'm not sorry (although as I said before I do apologize) and I can't be sorry that I was caught doing it because I knew that getting caught was an inevitable consequence. A consequence I accepted prior to even starting down this path.

I started down this path because I felt from the beginning that playing against Dread Lord opponents, which is certainly not a "normal" opponent, was wrong and the further I chased it as I gradually discovered more and more about it the less I liked it. I felt that my choice was either to be forced to play the same techniques which I definitely did not want to do or just give up the game which I also did not want to do. The path I followed seemed at each step of the way to negotiate between those two choices which is why I say given the same set of circumstances I would willingly do the same things over again.

Now SS claims that the kind of scoring levels achieved using Dread Lord opponents are achievable without using Dread Lord opponents. For one if there's anyone that could do so I believe it to be SS. Secondly it would be really great to see SS actually submit a monster game as opposed to just being in the background figuring everything else out for everyone but himself. And finally if he really can achieve those levels then I say that's absolutely great, because that won't force me to choose between playing against Dread Lords opponents or giving up the game.