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Scintor
Join Date 05/2006
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Suggestion for unique tech trading adjustment

January 28, 2008 3:16:17 PM from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Moved from another thread

I think that pretty much sums up the whole issue right there. One of the big features is that each race is different. Allowing them to put all those special characteristics into one big grab bag for everyone to use does seem to negate that.


Yes and no. No one in this discussion thinks that Tech Trading as it stands does not need a big fix. What I and others are arguing is that simply banning it is not the answer. Right now trading technologies is too cheep and easy. What is needed is a way to make it more ballenced without making it illeagal. The other point is that anything that requires a major overhaul will probably not happen until GalCiv III.

What is likely to happen:
Most unique racial techs will be flagged no trade, no steal. Tech trading will continue as before with a few less techs avalible on the market.

What I would like to see as a solution (but probly will not happen):
Instead of getting a tech a outright when you trade for it or capture it, you would gain a space on your technology tree to start researching the technology. Buying or capturing a tech that is on your tech tree would give you research toward that tech when you do actually research it. So instead of instantly getting Impulse Drive when buying it, it appears on you tech tree the first time (if not already there,) The second time you get 25% of the research needed to finish the tech, and so on. There would need to be a check to insure that each tech can only be sold once between any two races.
This would insure that buying high end techs would still require significant research time before use, and I would even agree that research times for 'unique' might need to be doubled or even quadrupled for an alien race. You could still get specific alien techs if you are really willing to work for them, but the free for all would be severely limited.

Scincerely,

Scintor@aol.com
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Scintor
Sole Soul
Join Date 12/2007
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Reply #1 January 28, 2008 3:41:29 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I.

Really like that idea.

I can see why the current system doesn't have that capability (or, at least, I don't -think- it does), but I can also see how it could be expanded as such.

That said, I'm not saying it would be easy, either-just worthwhile.
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Scintor
Icesavage
Join Date 04/2003
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Reply #2 January 28, 2008 4:53:34 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Overall Tech trees need an overhaul, so the impact that tech trading has now should be less, i think when things flow better.


The main issue right now is how radically different most tech trees are. Tech trees should be fairly similar, only slight variation. The main difference is that the implementation of each tech is different for each race.

For example: If the Humans get "Industry 3" then they would get Manufacturing Centers, while Korath would get the 3rd version the Slave Centers that they use.


Or "Economics 2" would be different for the Yor compared to another race.


This would also keep down the clutter in the build screen. The main issue here though is taking over a planet and having different building from the same Tech base. Meaning Humans take over a Korath planet, and it is full of Slave Pits. Now, the way I see it, you should have an option of building over these building, but you shouldnt be able to build anymore. The Governor should also auto-update these to the Human tech base factories if/when the overall tech improves.

Meaning Korath Slave Pits are Industry 2, Humans have Industry 3. These factories get updated to Manufacturing Centers, and not Slave Centers.


Special techs should only branch off the main tech tree that everyone has. Limitation could be put for races that are restricted from certain trees all together. Like the Drengin and the Diplomacy Tree, but mostly I think special techs should only branch off or specifically overwrite a main tree. We have some of that already. In the Korath tree. Xeno Biology gets overwritten by Corrupted Genetics.



Thus if you trade a tech, you get your main races benefits for that tech, instead of what you got from the person you traded it from. Special Techs would still be there, and those could be limited depending on balance impact. You do want SOME special trading, but other stuff should not be like the Yor Speed enchantment tech, because they are synthetic. All other races couldnt nor should be able to benefit from it. If the Korath traded Corrupted Genetics to someone, they would only get the Xeno Biology tech with no bonuses like the Korath get.

There would need to be also a Generic Tech, for when a race trades beyond its means. Korath cannot research Master Trade, so if they would still be allowed to trade for it, there has to be Generic Version of Master Trade, like for example without the Galactic Wonder that the Korx get.



That is how I would solve the tech trading dilemma.
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Scintor
thehandofzarquon
Join Date 09/2006
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Reply #3 January 28, 2008 6:25:14 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Here are my ideas:

1. When you trade for or steal Techs, you receive YOUR version of the tech, not the race you received it from.

2. Most, if not all, Techs are flagged as Trade-able. However, these techs can only be traded or stolen if both races involved have the tech in their Tech Tree.

However, at the same time, Techs can exist in other race's tech trees without that race being able to research it. (Spore Weapons, at least in DA, is an example of this. There is a Requirement flag "ImpossibleTech" which makes a tech hidden, and not researchable)

Thus, it could be possible to have the Korx to be able to trade for or steal Xeno Slavery, but the Altarians to not be able to.

Using this option might cause issues with identifying techs as being "unique" to a certain race, though.

3. Have the Alignment of a Tech in the Receiver's (not the Trader's) tech tree matter when determining if a tech can be traded/stolen.

As an example of what I mean, you could have the Altarians have Xeno Slavery in their tree and not be researchable. However, the tech also has an alignment requirement of "Evil". Thus, if the Altarians became Evil, they could trade for (or steal) Xeno Slavery. But ONLY if they are Evil.

4. A property (defaults to '1') that if set to '0' causes that Race's whose tech tree it is in to not be able to EVER steal or Trade for that tech, but doesn't stop other races from being able to trade for it.

Thus, the Yor could have the Farming techs in their tree (not researchable, of course) and be given a value of '0' for this property. And now you have Robots who find no use from traditional "Food" making methods.

If the above four options were implemented, then there could be a much finer degree of control over the trading of techs than is normally possible.

Of course, these methods (to properly make use of them, that is) would require a good bit of XML work would could be quite tedious.

If all else fails though, the devs could always adjust how much effect the WillingnessToTrade value has, as well as making the AI-to-AI trades operate on the same rules and values as Player-To-AI trades.

Speaking of WillingnessToTrade... a quick question to the Devs: does the WillingnessToTrade value of a tech you are offering affect the AI's "value" of the tech? Ie: if you have two techs with the same cost, AI Value, etc, etc... except one tech has a WillingnessToTrade value of 17 and the other 70, will one tech be considered more "valuable" by the AI than the other?
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Scintor
Uranium - 235
Join Date 09/2006
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Reply #4 January 28, 2008 9:28:54 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
My idea:

1) Is the tech you want somewhere on your tech tree?

No?

You can't have it.

2) I also like and support the idea of having to dedicate SOME time to a 'bought' tech, as the AI generally sells them for cheap, and that would eliminate the whole going from Mass Driver Theory to Black Hole Eruptors in 1 turn thing.

I know this is going to be immensely unpopular with the powergamer / AI abuser crowd, but whatever, nobody cares what you think, as you'll always be unhappy with a game that fixes exploits.
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Phaedyme
Join Date 04/2003
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Reply #5 January 28, 2008 10:27:41 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Scintor,

That's an interesting idea, and the more I think about it, the more I like it.

Thank you for splitting this off, too. I don't even look at the long tech trading threads at this point. Too much abuse for not agreeing 100% with a certain poster.
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WIllythemailboy
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #6 January 28, 2008 11:28:01 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I like this, too. But at this point, I'd almost prefer tech trading to remain broken simply because I know it annoys that certain poster more than it does me  
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Mahanon
Join Date 09/2005
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Reply #7 January 29, 2008 4:06:40 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I think that you should be able to get a unique tech from another civilization, but there are limitations. When you trade or steal the tech, you can't use it immediately. It will appear in your tech tree and you have to research it before you can use it (what you are researching is how to adapt the technology to work with your own technology). Once you research it, you will have a weakened version of whatever the real tech is, because it's impossible to get it to work perfectly with your own technology.
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Scintor
Uranium - 235
Join Date 09/2006
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Reply #8 January 29, 2008 8:50:02 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums

Scintor,

That's an interesting idea, and the more I think about it, the more I like it.

Thank you for splitting this off, too. I don't even look at the long tech trading threads at this point. Too much abuse for not agreeing 100% with a certain poster.

Let me clarify.

I call you and your argument 'stupid' because your entire point that tech trading should remain the same was because you literally thought the game would be too hard without it.

Your basis on THAT was because the two brand new untested races were too difficult for you to play, including mention that the Altarians have a "morale problem", despite the fact that the Drath have the same general tech tree and have no such problem.

And even after others and myself made that clear (even without calling you stupid!) you had your e-feelings hurt so bad you never actually responded to any of that.

I can quote you where you said the game would be too hard for you, which is pretty much the lamest reason you can have come up with. You wonder why I called you stupid after you hammered that asinine non-point about 12 times and then started attacking my posts for trivial reasons?

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Starchaser12
Join Date 08/2007
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Reply #9 January 29, 2008 9:13:32 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
U-235,

As I have said in at least 1 other point, you have some valid and good ideas. But to be honest, your method of discussion and debate alienates most people you would discuss this with.

You are out of time order, btw. You started flaming Phae before he began attacking your posts. And it's not just him. I've seen you on many threads trivialize other peoples points and attack them personally because you don't agree with them.

You attract more flies with honey than vinegar. Your first post on this thread is concise, well stated, and appropriate. Your second is counterproductive. In case you didn't notice it, at least 2 people said they would rather see tech trading remain broken merely because it annoys you.

If you think alienating people is the way to get what you want...you are in for a lot of surprises in life...
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Scintor
Scintor
Join Date 05/2006
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Reply #10 January 29, 2008 1:46:04 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
2) I also like and support the idea of having to dedicate SOME time to a 'bought' tech, as the AI generally sells them for cheap, and that would eliminate the whole going from Mass Driver Theory to Black Hole Eruptors in 1 turn thing.


Wow, I never thought I would hear such flattery!

My point about tech trading, like several areas of the game, is that it is underdeveloped, and therefore exploitable.

Thehandofzarquon: I agree that getting bonuses for overlapping techs is a bit of an exploit right now. You can get some amazing social and military production bonuses by trading all the basic manufacturing techs. I do think that this could be adjusted by doing something like giving an alien race only half the bonus that a native race gets from a tech. Improvements could more expensive to build or manitain for alien races than they are for the originators too.

On the other hand I do like the ability to buy slave pit technology, even if I never use this technology, as it isn't as efficient as what I have. I am just a collector and I would buy and research a tech even if I knew for certain that it was useless to me.

Scincerely,

Scintor@aol.com
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WIllythemailboy
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #11 January 29, 2008 8:22:03 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
You attract more flies with honey than vinegar.


I've always hated that saying. No one ever takes it to the logical conclusion.

You attract more flies with honey than vinegar, but bullshit works best of all   
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