djtool

Join Date 03/2006

espionage...should I even bother?

Racial abilities

I'm not seeing where taking espionage abilities at race-design benefits you. Most of the time you find out what you need to know when you initiate a tech trade or peek at their ships.

I guess its possible you get a steady flow of techs when you reach advanced on numerous opponents?

just wondering.

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I think you only get techs when advanced and while spies are planted, unlike DL when once you hit advanced you didn't need to shed one more credit.

For the most part, I'll get the first level of intel to see their influence level and able to quickly check their planetary improvements and such. Other than that, I'll use spies to help cripple a race prior to a war (or during a war). Be it their econ, their populations/morale pre invasions....

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Hi!

I'm not seeing where taking espionage abilities at race-design benefits you.

In DA nowhere. AFAIK it just allows you to SPEND more, so get the next spy faster.

I guess its possible you get a steady flow of techs when you reach advanced on numerous opponents?

This question hasn't been answered yet, but IMO not. You need active spies to get a chance for stealing a tech. WRT stady flow: one tech per game year isn't a steady flow. Also, the cost of spies you'll need for that can outweight the money you'd spend for simply researching that tech several dozen times!!!

If you're playing on tough+, you better forget about active spying on more than 1 or 2 opponents. Costs WAAAAY to much.

BR, Iztok

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Espionage serves another purpose, while spying on your foes it disables the buildings you put them in. Excellent for cold war tactics, breaking their economy and planet morale.

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So far everybody has left out their additional purpose of "neutralizing" agents on your planets to restore a buildings production. (ya, my main purpose for them. A few tech spies though.)

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So far I have found the espionage aspect wanting. I would like to see more options for spies. The economics involved is way out of scale I think for the value gained.

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The cost of spies increases for everyone. I like to get at least Low level, o i can at least see where AI ships are going. that can be very helpful. SInce i usually have a strong economy i like to play the race to make the AI spend more until they cant keep up. And its not all against the uman player. I have many games where i never get and AI spy on my planet but i see the AI spying on eachother.

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far everybody has left out their additional purpose of "neutralizing" agents on your planets to restore a buildings production. (ya, my main purpose for them. A few tech spies though.)

Once I get the tech, I normally toss a Counter Espionage building on every planet. It'll save me the money on spies and it gives morale...for the price of it's long build time.

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usually by then I have maxed out every tile on the planets. My build style needs a little refinement (despite playing since the galciv2 beta)

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Unfortunately the Espionage ability only increases how much you can spend on Spies, as far as I can tell it does nothing to increase your chances of stealing a tech, give any sort of resistance to being nullified, or reduce the cost of spies in any way. Honestly, even if Espionage did all 3 of those things it would be hard to justify putting starting points into. Poor Iconians.

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Actually in TA you can steal a tech must earlier than DA, I have "acquired" techs with as low as medium levels of espionage, with only 2 or 3 spies in place. Other times though I have went in game years with 10 to 15 spies and advanced espionage without so much as a glimmer of "we are onto something".

Spies also are not only good for economical reasons but morale. Something to be said about information warfare, which helps on two sides of the coin, as I have heard some folks that do not like the genocide type planetary battles + nothing like winning some folks over when your running a bit short of transports.

My thoughts,
Suralle Straykat
Kat Lord @ Large

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AFAIC, the whole spying "concept" relates much more on the actual amount (or even pace) of information a player gets about races; sure, the agents DO add a certain dimension with place/nullify - but that's spending BCs as a one-way ticket to economy variables. I often wished for a sort of thief instead to steal some money!

What lacks to this feature is a "true" infiltration set of options; demolish buildings, sabotage ships & productions, subdue citizens by propaganda stuff, examine & report statistical hints of any enemy properties/values directly from nearby planets (Zeroes, anyone?) in a type of outpost spy-base, etc. And the above theft activity.

Then, you'd have A more active spy - both worthy of its cost (evergrowing) and highly adaptable skills (again, with some techno/upgrades). Think of a rather unique super-hero (somehow) which gains experience through missions, provides support to invasion troops, stands as an alternate governor-type for Knowledge & Research, even could twart most Mega-Events (sometimes, i'd want to revert (partially, totally, at my discretion) the Jagged Knife right back where they came from, kick a few Pirates' butts and slice a couple of PeaceKeepers' throats!) and - so on.

- Zyxpsilon.

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After posing the question I started a game with an emphasis on espionage (Game: DA; Tech: VS; The other settings: ran; Gal: huge; AI: chal) and its been key to my success. However this is because the galaxy turned up just about empty (average number of planets per civ is 2!) and my 4-6 spies completely retarded the production capability of my neighbor (altarian) which helped greately in 'acquiring' their planet.

The way espionage is implemented it seems this would be the primary use for it while throwing the occasional bone (tech) my way. In a galaxy where many planets are available for colonization that strategy would fail. However if you started out with the homeworlds on the map it would increase the capability of that strategy as you could plop your spies on their research centers during the beginning phases, maybe switching to econ buildings or factories later. You'd either need to see the homeworlds as part of the 'super spy' special ability, or a free scout ship (or 2). The acquisition of anothers homeworld could be enough (and surrounding space) , even if espionage from there on out continues as it does currently.

It may require a reduced cost for spies. If the spy game is your game you should be able to accumulate them like ships. That comes off as balanced to me because the recipients of your spies would then have the option to build a spy to nullify yours or another ship, same as you. granted you get them faster, but then that's what you paid for. meanwhile they'll have a leg up on you somewhere else.

In addition to bonus techs you could add some bonus embezzling if you were so inclined.

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In Twilight of the Arnor I agree that espionage seems to be a waste of time unless your using it to nullify other agents.

I used the Kryn consulate with max spy bonus, max spy tech (super spy planetary improvements) with constantly 2-3 agents on the yor collective and 10% espionage spending the whole game. Out of like 400 turns which I reached advanced in like 150 I stole 1 tech from them and that is it. Now maybe I crippled them from winning the game but I crippled myself as well because the Arceans ripped me a new a$$#(#@! A lot more techs should have been stolen with all the bonuses I had.

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I like your idea, DJTool (post #12). Using a sort of "spy rush" early in the game to cripple a nearby neighbor might help conquer them.
Next game, I'll have to try that, too.

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I'm willing to admit that espionage is a small advantage for a harsh price ... and yes additional effects like those mentioned and framing (causing two nations to go to war against each other at the cost of agents) would be nice additions, but:

End game it rocks - you can effectively cripple or crush a medium-strong economy by directing your spies at economy generating structures on high population planets or alternatively reduce the techrate of a specific race by targeting research buildings.

No forcing spy-production doesn't help much, slowly generating a wast horde of spies and when your opponent whimpers at facing you armada and urges for a peace treaty, you strike at his weakened economy and influence (helps planet conversion - not kidding), delivering a decisive, but peaceful deathblow to his race.

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