Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

The MVL and the AltMeta

OK guys, I've tried to bring up this topic of discussion subtly on a number of occasions all for naught. It seems that subtly is lost on the average MVL player, or perhaps put another way, the average MVL player has all the subtly of a ball peen hammer.

Anyway, it’s time to start discussing this directly. By this I mean I would like to get support for the MVL into the AltMeta. Kryo has expressed willingness to do this but wants a solid definition of precisely what it is that we want. This encompasses a number of potential issues.

Certainly at a minimum it would be nice if we have a fancy display of league results that all could view each month on the AltMeta. It would also be nice to be able to see past months results. Finally I’m sure all would like to be able to view these results on a league wide, team wide or individual basis.

Even regarding the "simple" display of league results there are probably very many ways to do this. I know when the Metaverse Council was discussing options relating to AltMeta Classes we found it helpful to sketch up something just for folks to look at, criticize and comment on. I have a couple of ideas that I will sketch up at some point when I get a chance however it would be nice if other folks could come up with a few ideas on their own (hint, hint

).

The next level of complexity that needs some discussion is a method of game submission to the league that could be a little more automated than posting images or words to a thread. As we’ve seen this requires the official scorers to go through a lot of posts for a limited amount of information and there are invariably a few folks that leave off a critical piece of information that then requires the scorer to check the player’s character.

The final level of complexity could involve a well defined set of scoring rules that could allow software to score each round automatically.

Regardless of all of the above there probably would be the need for someone to administer all of this.

Anyway, I hope that the potential of getting MVL support into the AltMeta is of interest to most players and that we can use this thread to decide what it is we want to do.

I do want to forewarn folks that this is not something that can be resolved quickly and easily and it will take folks that are willing to put in a little bit of effort to reach a good solution that we can be proud of and that pretty much everyone agrees on. All too often the attitude that I’ve seen in the League is one of "let’s hurry up and get this over with". If that’s the attitude of most folks then we probably shouldn’t even bother. If so then perhaps I should resurrect the corpses of the Metaverse Council and we should figure out what to do within that framework.

Everyone should feel free to comment on any and all of these points that I’ve brought up or to bring up any others that they feel are related.

One of the first points I want to discuss is the issue that within the context of all of these MVL threads everyone thinks of MVL members in terms of their username not their character name (i.e. Mumblefratz instead of Toshiro Mifune). Clearly this isn’t that big a deal because I think folks can figure out who is who if required, however one thing to point out is that the AltMeta only knows about character names *not* user names.

Another point to consider is that it may be beneficial for everyone in the league to commit to join a single metaverse empire such as the MV League that thebutterfly has setup. A number of folks have joined that empire but a number of folks haven’t. It would be good to hear from Kryo if he thinks that would be a benefit and if so whether or not most folks would be willing to do it. If it simplifies things (and I think it would) perhaps we should simply make it a requirement.

So what do you think?

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You're last comment was my question. If required I will move my character to that empire.

I will also help in any way I can. I am supposed to have a very knowledgeable computer guy come over and help me with things.

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+456

It would be good to hear from Kryo if he thinks that would be a benefit and if so whether or not most folks would be willing to do it. If it simplifies things (and I think it would) perhaps we should simply make it a requirement.

It wouldn't be strictly necessary, though it would make it easier on whoever gets tapped to run the show. With all league characters in a designated empire, it'd just be a matter of sorting them into teams, rather than having to track down the individuals and enter their character id's into lists manually.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

It wouldn't be strictly necessary, though it would make it easier on whoever gets tapped to run the show

Kind of like I figured. Nice but not necessary.

I'll let this percolate a bit more since there's not been much response so far.

At least the current set of MVL players should weigh-in with their opinion on whether this is this even something they want or not.

I mean there would be a lot of work involved in setting up something nice. I think it would be a good thing to do but if no one is really interested then perhaps we shouldn't waste our time with this discussion. It's not like I don't have better things to do than chase down everyone's opinion when all I'm trying to do is provide some functionality that I think most people would appreciate.

So if people don't think this is worth the bother then let me know and I won't waste my time. If it's something that you'd like then step up and say so.

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I was initially wondering if the tournament aspect of TA could be used with the league, but after hearing more about what Stardock would like to do with the Tourney's I realized it will probably not be able to be used for league play(not everyone has TA) and also it doesn't seem like it's going to be in any direct competition with the MVL.
So with my concerns lessened as to the survival of the MVL vs. the tourney's I think we will need something like the incorporation into the AltMeta to further both the ease of use and the, how should I say.."professional" looking representation that will help attract more players as time goes on.
Using The AltMeta's already attractive look as a baseline, we should be able to spawn an easy to navigate, and informative setup for the league to use. As far as ideas, I'll need to think on it a little.
As far as the empire aspect, most of you know my character is already in the MVL empire and if it is going to make this merging easier I would definately encourage everyone to join. The benefit will have to outweigh the negative aspect of it though. If we have players that would join the League, but balk at joining the MVLE, then I would suggest trying to find an alternative to that part of it.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

The benefit will have to outweigh the negative aspect of it though. If we have players that would join the League, but balk at joining the MVLE, then I would suggest trying to find an alternative to that part of it.

From Kryo's response it would be a convenience to an administrator. Based on this, I think it's best to leave it open. People should probably be encouraged to join but if they don't want to for whatever reason I see no compelling reason to force them to join.

However, there will be a number of requirements that having the MVL on the AltMeta *will* force us to adopt. I don't think any of these are any big deal but I do want to highlight them so that people understand the ramifications.

Firstly, we will need to become accustomed to considering league members by their *character* name and not their forum nickname. For example Mumblefratz is not a member of the A Team but my character Toshiro Mifune is. I don't think this will be that big of a deal but it is something that we will have to get used to.

Secondly, it's an absolute requirement that all MVL members will need to have their character listed in the AltMeta. Joining the MV League empire will do this by default but so would joining any established empire. Even starting your own empire and then getting Kryo to list it is fine but AFAIK every character will have to be in some empire or other to get into the AltMeta to begin with.

Thirdly, this will require that everyone play every league game under the same character. I suppose we could allow people to change characters from time to time if they wished but it would really make a mess if folks regularly went back and forth between multiple characters. Again AFAIK no one has done this but I do know on occasion people have posted a game to a different character than they originally intended. Basically, once a character is setup as an MVL member in the AltMeta then a game posted to a different character could probably not be counted.

Finally, there have been a few occasions where folks have been unable to post a game to the Metaverse for Error 12 or Error 16 or whatever reason and we have so far simply accepted a post of the game end screens as a legitimate submission. If all scoring and submission is based on games in the AltMeta then we could no longer allow this. The only way for a game to appear in the AltMeta is for it to have been successfully submitted to the Metaverse first. There could possibly be some backdoor Administrator managed method to get around this but I would think that this would be more trouble than it was worth. From what I've seen the typical cause of such problems is due to being the first person to update to a new rev of the game before such issues are discovered. I think all of this could be simply avoided if League members would wait a few days before updating to the latest rev.

Anyway, all of the above would be pretty much required if we do decide to move to the ALtMeta. However I certainly agree with DethAdder (or should I say "MetaLeaguer") that moving to the AltMeta would be a far more "professional" method of handling the League and could only help attract new players.

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I do want to forewarn folks that this is not something that can be resolved quickly and easily and it will take folks that are willing to put in a little bit of effort to reach a good solution that we can be proud of and that pretty much everyone agrees on. All too often the attitude that I’ve seen in the League is one of "let’s hurry up and get this over with". If that’s the attitude of most folks then we probably shouldn’t even bother. If so then perhaps I should resurrect the corpses of the Metaverse Council and we should figure out what to do within that framework.

How do I help?

Finally, there have been a few occasions where folks have been unable to post a game to the Metaverse for Error 12 or Error 16 or whatever reason and we have so far simply accepted a post of the game end screens as a legitimate submission. If all scoring and submission is based on games in the AltMeta then we could no longer allow this. The only way for a game to appear in the AltMeta is for it to have been successfully submitted to the Metaverse first. There could possibly be some backdoor Administrator managed method to get around this but I would think that this would be more trouble than it was worth. From what I've seen the typical cause of such problems is due to being the first person to update to a new rev of the game before such issues are discovered. I think all of this could be simply avoided if League members would wait a few days before updating to the latest rev.

It would actually be quite easy. Just write it down on MS-notepad and take a screenshot. Then paste that screenshot under that character's name. There could be something that would prevent this like the webpage skin or something else because someone would've thought of it before me.

Second, Getting into the Altmeta would still require the person to specify which game from their character is intended for submission. Then that character's submission needs to be added to the Altmeta MVL section(if it would ever exist). So basically, you still need a bit of manual entry. I guess silver and me aren't out of a job!

Thirdly, refering to each other via character names, Toshiro, might make a person who opens a MVL thread think that we're referring to each other via codenames. Not the biggest issue(one of the small ones) but an issue nonetheless.

Besides, I don't want to have to memorize all of your character names. Thats like learning ABCs again with each alphabet having 5-6 syllables on average and associating all of those 25 'alphabets' to a another set of 25 names each consisting of 3-5 syllables.

However, there will be a number of requirements that having the MVL on the AltMeta *will* force us to adopt. I don't think any of these are any big deal but I do want to highlight them so that people understand the ramifications.

Quite wasting your words. Not most of the league actually checks any thread other then the current Round thread and even that on a very occasional basis. (Not pointing any fingers here but it was him!)

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

How do I help?

By participating in the discussion (as you are doing

) *and* by being more interested in coming to a good solution that's acceptable to the bulk of MVL members than in "getting it over with".

No, this represents an entirely different way from how the AltMeta normally gets its game data. The AltMeta gets its data through a RSS feed from the real Metaverse. If it's not in the Metaverse then it's not in the AltMeta. Kryo could weigh-in with an opinion here that would certainly be more informed than mine but I suspect that incorporating screenshot images hosted on a 3rd party website is not a desirable method for the AltMeta to gain information.

Second, Getting into the AltMeta would still require the person to specify which game from their character is intended for submission. ... So basically, you still need a bit of manual entry.

There will definitely still be some need for an administrator function. Ideally, software could handle a lot of the detailed mechanics of scoring and so relieve any administrator of a lot of the burden and most of the potential for error, but most definitely some administration would be required.

Thirdly, referring to each other via character names, Toshiro, might make a person who opens a MVL thread think that we're referring to each other via codenames. Not the biggest issue(one of the small ones) but an issue nonetheless.

I'm not suggesting that we need to start calling each other by our league character names within the context of any league discussion threads, however certainly any game submission must reference the character and not the forum nickname. Simply put the AltMeta knows nothing of your GalCiv2 forum nickname and so any data displayed in the AltMeta will only reference character name and team members can only be displayed in character name. Again Kryo can offer a more informed opinion but I don't see any easy way around having to know which character is which.

Not most of the league actually checks any thread other then the current Round thread and even that on a very occasional basis.

I agree and see this as the biggest problem with the league. Most folks simply want to play the game and happen to like the league format but don't want to have to do any actual work to keep it operating and to help make it grow. All in all I can understand that concept and its fine with me if a fair amount of folks don't want to bother to participate in these kinds of discussions.

However, with or without the help and support of everyone in the league I feel that there are enough folks that are dedicated enough and are interested enough in the improvement of the league that we can move forward using the opinions of those willing to participate. I also feel that this work put forth by a few will indeed benefit even those that aren't willing to put forth the same kind of effort.

Again I really have no issue with this either. However, if the subset of members that don't bother to participate in these decisions later decide that the changes we implement aren't exactly to their liking then my response will be a sarcastic "Well isn't that just too bad". We're giving everyone the opportunity to provide their opinion and wish to make decisions that benefit the most people possible, but if you don't bother to contribute your opinion then you have no call to complain about the results. In the final analysis they can vote with their feet. However, I'm not about to let the laziness of a subset of folks stop me from trying to improve something that I care about.

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Totally agree with Toshiro(Mumble) I wish I were able to do more. The MVL keeps me playing this game. I look forward to each and every month for each game. This league has come very far, especially changing teams every month, awesome idea.

And yes more should get involved in these discussions, It doesn't effect playing the game at all. Part of my favorite in this league is also giving my 2 cents whether you like it or not. And reading the posts

I also most likely will be changing my MVL character to join the empire, I think the Orcas are pretty much dead anyhow.

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I am very pleased with the AltMeta, and seeing something smiliar implemented for the MVL would be interesting. I do wonder though if it there is enough people in the MVL who want this, to warrant the time and effort that would go into it. As was stated, one problem with the current system is that the scorekeepers need to search through a long thread for small amounts of data. I think that problem could be easily solved with a thread purely for submitting games, and all other replies to that post get deleted. For the last round, I did my own analysis of previous statistics. It didnt take a long time (and I rather enjoy that sort of thing anyway), but it would be nice to have something like the AltMeta's data at everyone's disposal.

There may also be a problem that people will not want to join the MVL empire, as would be the case with me. With the typical settings of the MVL and my skill level, submitting these games to the Metaverse lowers the score of any of my characters, and at the moment I want to see how high my empire and characters can go. Playing in the MVL is very fun, but is also at cross-purposes to running my own empire if I am required to submit the game to the Metaverse. I would like to continue doing both, without either detracting from each other.

Im reasonably happy with the MVL as it is now, and actually sort of like the feeling that it's run by the players rather than the developers/Stardock. I'd like to maintain that feeling of player involvement and community, and while automation would provide some benefits, it might detract from this. I think everyone has done a great job so far.

Sentient species taste better...

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"getting it over with".

I only said that because we were argueing over whether to have a vote or not. And the ammount of discussion that went into the argument of having a vote or not was almost the same as the actual topic for the vote itself whose sole purpose was to esperiment with how effective a league-wide vote would be. Its pure logic.

[quote]I also most likely will be changing my MVL character to join the empire, I think the Orcas are pretty much dead anyhow.

I think the Orcas are pretty much dead anyhow.

As are the HitchHikers. *sigh*

On the matter of low player participation in the leauge's developing process, (if)after the league is nestled in the AltMeta then maybe we could send each player a PM asking them whether or not they noticed. Most probably, the league would be flooded with questions and players finally giving their oppinion on the matter. If they disagree with the change, a final

"Well isn't that just too bad".

would be fitting.

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Has there been any information in the other league threads about the existence of this thread? I only came across it by mere chance, but I have a lot of rl on my hands these days, so my gaming and forum time is limited.
I just want to be sure that people are not left out of the decision process because they don't know there is something to decide. If they know but do not care or if they don't know because they do not read the current round threat in that case I do agree with mumble, as long as we do not rush things too much and give everyone at least a fair chance to participate.

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folks have been unable to post a game to the Metaverse for Error 12 or Error 16 or whatever reason...submitting these games to the Metaverse lowers the score of any of my characters

I've lost track of the ModMetaverse lately... but would it be possible to set up a similar submission format for an AltMeta League? I don't know the technical requirements, but it might provide a viable alternative.

I wouldn't mind moving my MVL character to a dedicated league. Having such a league visible in the Metaverse might provide more incentive for new players to join, and having a dedicated AltMeta site for league scores would be far more attractive than the current setup. I am all for it.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

Has there been any information in the other league threads about the existence of this thread? I only came across it by mere chance, but I have a lot of rl on my hands these days, so my gaming and forum time is limited.

I just want to be sure that people are not left out of the decision process because they don't know there is something to decide. If they know but do not care or if they don't know because they do not read the current round threat in that case I do agree with mumble, as long as we do not rush things too much and give everyone at least a fair chance to participate.

Excellent point.

I think being in no rush is important. This ensures that everyone has the opportunity to comment if they wish. Also the comment that some reference be made to this discussion in other league threads is a good one as well. I will make sure that there are links placed in the other threads to this one.

Actually, I would also like to take a league wide vote on whether or not a majority agrees that incorporating the League into the AltMeta is a good thing to do. If we have a majority of folks that would like this then we can decide more precisely what it is we want to do.

Actually as far as format it's probably best to clearly describe how the League works and then let Kryo come up with a format. From there its easier to tweak a few things than to completely specify everything in advance.

Anyway, being in no rush and making sure everyone is aware of the vote is important. I think we should publicize the vote as much as possible but hold off on having the vote until the end of the round.

The last vote wasn't that poorly attended but on something like this I would hope for far better than 10 of 25 members voting. I think everyone needs to encourage everyone else that their opinion is important.

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Don't know what to add, but I'm all for the MVL to be included in AltMeta. I have created a new character (4 20) for MVL and only use it for the league, and that character is part of the MVL empire. These 2 things should be a requirement. My 2 cents. Also, if there is anything I can do to help out, count me in.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

I would agree with being a member of the MV League Empire a requirement if there is some definite benefit to do so. However, if it's merely for the convenience of an administrator as Kryo has suggested then it's probably not that worthwhile to require.

One of the biggest problems that incorporating the MVL into the AltMeta would have to deal with is the aspect of "submitting" games to the League. In my opinion, submitting games to the league is one of the biggest source of tedium and potential error. By that I mean more from the point of view of the score keepers having to search through 2 to 3 hundred posts for game submissions.

If we could have a more automated way of submitting MVL games that could be a big benefit. I know when I mentioned this to Kryo initially his problem was that he had no way of validating everyones "submission" and that was part of the reason he suggested an administrator. One thing to consider is that if everyone was in the same empire that would be one way for Kryo to validate a submission.

However, I think the easiest way would be to have a way for everyone to "submit" a game to the AltMeta but have that submission approved by the administrator before it's accepted as "official". This has the advantage of being a more automated process that doesn't require the administrator to search through hundreds of posts but still requires an administrator to essentially validate league membership. I doubt very much that people not in the league would be submitting games but some level of validation is a good idea anyway. Plus the submission time could be clocked automatically.

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I currently have just the 1 character that I submit games under so I could easily create a MVL character for an "AltMeta" empire. I would be in favor of that.

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bookmarking; will review later.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

The one issue with the MV League Empire is that it's not easily transferable. Not that thebutterfly is going anywhere but if he were to disappear then there would be no way to manage the empire.

I know that when Master U left he attempted to transfer ownership of the Galactic Empire to Darth Nihilius and there was a great deal of difficulty. It ended up mixing up the two different identities as far as their posts. Also it did require the active participation of both parties to accomplish.

All in all I think the MV League empire is a good thing for people to join just so that most folks can be found in the same place but it's probably dangerous to make this new AltMeta functionality dependent on such a thing.

The real issue with submitting games to the AltMeta is that there is no password protection. Anyone can logon and say that they are you and "submit" a game for you. It's not something that's likely to happen but it could.

Marshall brought up the Mod Metaverse and the submission of games via the endgame.xml file (that's not it's real name), but that would require folks to play DA at version v1.7 at least (I think). There are other issues as well, mainly that that submission method is totally foreign to the AltMeta's current method of getting data from the Metaverse via a RSS feed.

I would like to get rid of these overly long submission threads but I still don't see a good way to avoid it. Possibly setting up password access to MVL members for purposes of submitting games would work. Kryo would have to determine if this would be sufficient and if this is something that he'd be willing to add to the AltMeta.

All of a characters games would be listed in the AltMeta just like everyone elses. Basically submitting a MVL game to the AltMeta would require someone to specify which game out of all those submitted to the Metaverse by that character was to be considered this month's league game. Additionally software could filter out games that didn't satisfy the current criteria. But you're not really submitting the game you're merely saying which game out of all those listed should be used for this month's MVL game.

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Second, Getting into the AltMeta would still require the person to specify which game from their character is intended for submission. ... So basically, you still need a bit of manual entry.

still catching up so pardon me if this has been suggested.

could something on the AltMeta be set up so that the player selects which game is their official submission? for example, some sort of automated function could isloate all submissions for a given character within a given round's timeframe. when that player has decided which game they wish to use, they could go to a special screen that would display all qualifying games for the round with radio buttons next to them -- the player would pick one, hit 'submit' and the game would map over to the primary MVL, uh, page, or whatever.

to be honest, i'm not even all that familiar with the AltMeta and how it can help us.

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+456

could something on the AltMeta be set up so that the player selects which game is their official submission? for example, some sort of automated function could isloate all submissions for a given character within a given round's timeframe. when that player has decided which game they wish to use, they could go to a special screen that would display all qualifying games for the round with radio buttons next to them -- the player would pick one, hit 'submit' and the game would map over to the primary MVL, uh, page, or whatever.

There's no way for the altmeta to verify a player owns a character, so that can't really work.

However, given that each league round has particular parameters, it'd be pretty straightforward for it to just filter games on the characters it's watching such that it only presents those that meet the game setup parameters and correct time period to the admin. The admin could then just checkmark the game to be used, or better, the system could just pick the best score from each character meeting the parameters.

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Neilo

Join Date 04/2006

+128

Wow, how did miss this..anyway...

This is a concern as many of us will and do submit multiple games under that rounds criteria and then post the best one to the MVL. The AltMeta would of course count every game submitted, so some work around this would need to be implemented.

A few points mentioned that i will give my opinion on,

If so then perhaps I should resurrect the corpses of the Metaverse Council and we should figure out what to do within that framework.

I feel the only members that would participate are the MVC members playing here, Mumble, TGE, DA and myself. Did i miss someone? Sorry, but the point is we have already more support from other MVL players than we would get from the rest of the council.

Another point to consider is that it may be beneficial for everyone in the league to commit to join a single metaverse empire such as the MV League that thebutterfly has setup.

This is a good idea, provided it is useful. But like Kryo said it would only make things easier for the administrator not a requirement for it (Altmeta inclusion) to work. This is a similar reason as to why i at least have not joined the MVLE. Other than grouping us all together there is no other funtionality to it since we use screenshots for submitions. But that being said if all current players are willing to join the MVLE for the Altmeta (as i would be) then we should go ahead and do that and from that point make it a requirement of all future players. It need not have any justification other than the ease of maintaining the AltMeta MVL.

The one issue with the MV League Empire is that it's not easily transferable. Not that thebutterfly is going anywhere but if he were to disappear then there would be no way to manage the empire.

This could be worked around by each character setting up his own empire and naming that empire the same as your MVL character. This way, although tedious and somewhat altogether excessive, we eliminate the events of a person leaving. Not that i see this as a huge problem, but if others do this idea might work.

Having the MVL included in the AltMeta would be a huge step for us and would give us such a greater presence in the MV. Our numbers would grow and so would the use of the MV. Count me in for anything i can do, and of course count me in for administering the ALT MVL once it is off the ground...provided no-one else wants the job.

I have a couple of ideas that I will sketch up at some point when I get a chance however it would be nice if other folks could come up with a few ideas on their own (hint, hint ).

Not sure what you mean, like an Excel sheet or similar? I'd be happy to give it a go.

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Neilo

Join Date 04/2006

+128

The wonderful double post.....

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

There's no way for the altmeta to verify a player owns a character, so that can't really work.

Is there any possibility that the AltMeta could implement passwords for MVL members for game submission purposes?

Not sure what you mean, like an Excel sheet or similar? I'd be happy to give it a go.

Actually yes. An excel spreadsheet just to define the boxes and add a little color is what we used as a sample format when the MVC was first discussing the AltMeta Brackets (Classes).

The major differences is that here we have an unspecified (and hopefully growing) number of teams so the format needs to be expandable. Also we probably need to consider four levels of display; the complete league over multiple rounds, details of each individual round, plus a team view over time as well as an individual view.

Kryo is very good with this formatting stuff and we could possibly just let him come up with something and then tweak it from there, but it also helps to have something a little more concrete for folks to look at.

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