Attacker Advantages are Exploitable!

Since Dec. 2005 (I was a DL beta tester), I have complained the first strike advantage was exploitable! When it was announced that it was being removed in v1.2, I said at last! However, an exploitable attacker advantage remained. In a 1 on 1 battle where both the attacker and defender wipe each other out, the attacker should survive with 1 HP but in fact is restored to full health! Even without this bug, having the attacker survive with 1 HP means that high attack ships in 1 on 1 battles will almost always win. In DA things are worse since we have brought back the old (pre-1.2) first strike advantage as one of the special race abilities; so now we can again extend the exploit from 1 on 1 battles to fleet battles!

In my opinion the only advantage that should be given to the attacker is deciding who and when to fight! If both the attacker and defender deliver a lethal blow then both should be destroyed; why can't battles end in a tie!?

Even if this change is made, I agree the high cost of defense makes the all attack ships more cost effective. Recall one weapon type is optimal against two defense types but one defense type is only optimal against one weapon type. Researching weapons is more expensive than researching defenses but I only need to research one or two weapon's trees whereas he needs to research one weapon's tree and all three defenses. For the cost/time of building a single dreadnought with moderate attack and very high defense, I can build 2 all attack dreadnoughts each with a different weapon's type. At least 1 of these all attack dreadnoughts will have the optimal weapon and easy destroy the high defense dreadnought! If you place all three defenses on your dreadnought then your effective defense will not be enough to block my attack!

Only when the attacker advantage is removed and the cost of defense is lowered will defenses be worthwhile!

warfare

Locked Post

Advanced Search

Watch this post

Do not email me updates for this post Email me updates for this post

Successfully updated karma reason!

Yeah, I agree this is exploitable. I can use a huge ship with lots of attack to take out entire enemy fleets. It will survive even though the enemy fleets have more than enough fire power to kill my ship, because of this one hit point rule. And then it can keep doing this over and over because the one hp rule will always keep it alive. But I don't think this has anything to do with the relative value of attack and defense.

Successfully updated karma reason!

As far as one wepon being optimal vs 2 defense types, that is true. I think Good race should have a few defense techs that work vs more than one wepon type. Like a special category of shields that also resist projectiles.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I'm very very new to this but i dont think its that much of an exploit. The large ship still has to outlive the many smaller ones. the one hit point rule only comes in where theres mutual destruction and the attcaker gets to keep his ship. Apparently though, theres a bug that gives the attacker full HP.

The attacker will have an advantage, call it surprise, or initiative but if both sides get to fire, which did away with the old REAL exploit, then i think its ok that the attacker gets to survive. Now let me ask the moer veteran players, how ofter is ther mutual destruction? Is this topic really that much of a game issue?

Like in a naval battle, one battleship (in the days of WW2 where battleships were used)could potentially destoy a hand full of destroyers and other similar ships. Just one good hit and each destoryer can be sunk and the battleships had a much greater range. of course theres the times where the smaller ships prevailed. All the winner would need is to be afloat to make it to port to get fixed (hence the one hit point).

Successfully updated karma reason!

Yeah, I agree this is exploitable. I can use a huge ship with lots of attack to take out entire enemy fleets.

Nullspace, are you the guy who was bragging awhile back how his +650 missle attack ship was able to exploit this?

Sure, its exploitable under extreme circumstances, but not for most game situations, and not if youre playing on a hard enough difficulty to keep you from running up your tech to that absurd a degree on the AI (If you have a +650 attack ship, the games over...you won it a while back). Its not an exploit if you have to have absurdly powerful ships to "exploit" it.

The "tie goes to the runner" rule should remain in effect for gamplay reasons, it will nearly never be enough of an issue to worry about. That being said, some sort of "critical damage" flag that reduced the attack of a ship that survived in this manner to "zero" until it was repaired would make for dramatic situtions, and address this issue that can rarely be a problem.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I'm very very new to this but I don't think its that much of an exploit. The large ship still has to outlive the many smaller ones...how often is their mutual destruction?

When clearing a planet of defenders, unless the planet has the orbital fleet manager, I engage them one at a time. So most of my battles are against a single defender. Late game, 1 on 1 battles that should end in mutual destruction are common. In these cases instead of surviving with 1 HP, my ship is restored to full health!

Before the change to the 1 HP rule in v1.2, I would engage enemy fleets with an equal number of ships or greater and destroy them before they could fire back. The few times one survived to fire back my attack only ships had leveled up enough to absorb the hit and destroy it. I completed the entire DL campaign on level Tough without losing any combat ships (just constructors)! I destroyed thousands of ships and lost zero combat ships! Even the mighty Dread Lords did not stand a chance because their ships rarely were able to fire back. Now in DA with the return of the First Strike advantage as a race special ability, I'll be able to do the same! However, I'll likely not use this race ability it is too powerful and ruins the game!

Successfully updated karma reason!

I find that its always better to be attacking than defending, and most of my battles are me attacking the enemy at my choosing ( fast ships). I also try to minimize the damage I take, I don't have first strike ability in game I'm playing, so I do work up defenses to whatever their attack is and use only ships against weapons that use that damage type...

most of my ships survive because of my strategy, and working up defense tech is part of my strategy. I rather have a balanced ship which I think would overall be stronger than a ship that was all attack....problem with all attack ships is that they don't have the resilence to keep fighting toe to toe in prolonged engagements....they do take damage and then have to go off to a planet and repair, and relatively often...even with first strike which would help, they would get damaged too easily, defense tech gives ships that needed longevity...

if you had a ship with 250 attack and no defense vs a ship with 125 attack and 125 defense, the balanced ship I believe would win, although probably be severely damaged.....because 125 deefense is enough to handle the 250 attack, but no defense on the 250 attack ship means that all of the 125 attack gets thru, so tech being equal and similiar ship types ( large vs large), you're better off with balanced ships of both one weapon type and some defense...

Successfully updated karma reason!

Nothing helpful here but I'm still not sure WTF is going on with ship combat. I can't seem to get a grasp on 'what it takes' as any ships I build sooner or later become cannon fodder to a superior force. Then I redesign and get by, but only temporarily. There doesn't seem to be a method to the madness with this, but it still seems that the combat system has some 'quirks' to put it mildly. Just my observation.

Successfully updated karma reason!

if you had a ship with 250 attack and no defense vs a ship with 125 attack and 125 defense, the balanced ship I believe would win, although probably be severely damaged.....because 125 defense is enough to handle the 250 attack, but no defense on the 250 attack ship means that all of the 125 attack gets through, so tech being equal and similar ship types (large vs large), you're better off with balanced ships of both one weapon type and some defense...

The all attack ship won't take any damage if it has the first strike advantage and can take out the defender before it can return fire! This is likely if the attacker also spends just 1 race point at setup to get a 25% luck bonus which means he will roll attacks between 62-250 vs. 0-250, for an average attack of 156 vs. the defender's average defense of 62(0-125)!
Recall also that a weapon type is optimal against two defense types whereas, a defense is only optimal against one weapon type. The attacker not the defender chooses the battle and thus attacks with ships optimized to take out the defender.
Finally, in one-on-one ship battles, which are the norm when clearing planetary defenders, in the case of mutual destruction the attack survives with 1 HP (due to a bug usually is restored to full health).

Successfully updated karma reason!

It is easy for a human player to defend his/her planets using nearby defensive fleets to intercept the SLOW attacking AI fleets.

If the AI began using SLOW defensive fleets to protect its planets then I would add engines to my attack ships and transports to just go around them!

Since the AI will never be a match for a skilled human player when it comes to tactics, the best thing would be for combat ships in orbit of a planet to auto-fleet (thus do away with the need for an Orbital Fleet Manager) but not ships without weapons. That way the attacker could not pick off defenders one ship at a time and the defender could still build cheap empty tiny hull defenders as speed bumps.

In GalCiv2 ToA I've noticed some AIs building defenders with defenses but no weapons! If you want to block a non-armed transport it makes sense to purchase a cheap empty tiny hull defender; adding defenses without weapons won't stop even a weak attack ship and just adds to the cost of the defender!

So, why is this terrible AI behavior still not fixed after 2 expansions?

Successfully updated karma reason!

Yes! This is a really easy, simple solution to some annoying problems. I'm all for AI improvements when possible, and if we can get AI improvements to fix this stuff then cool, but the above idea to "automatically fleet" groups of orbiting ships is a good one.

I can't help myself but take advantage of the current behavior! I know I could just, like, not attack orbiting ships when they're practically defenseless because they're alone.... but it's just so tempting to destroy them mercilessly!

Successfully updated karma reason!