cyberj914

Join Date 02/2006

Attack rule test

Ok in another thread there is discussion about whether or not an attack roll is computed as 0-Max or 1-Max on a per weapon basis. Well I did a quick and easy test in game (so no outside confusion) and this is what I found.

First the test setup:
Large Hull with 136 Space.
13 Rail Gun V - 1 attack rating.
No defense.

I built two of these ships named one Attack Drone (AD) and the other Target Drone (TD). The target drone I gave to another empire just so I could attack it with the attack drone. In the game I used to test I did have bonuses for weapons via a military resource. I ran the test twice with two separate empires as the target drone.

Listed are the actual combat rounds from the viewer.

Initial for Test 1:
AD HP = 58
TD HP = 56

AD Attack = 20
TD Attack = 15

Results Test 1:
AD - 18
TD - 13
AD - 17
TD - 14
AD - 18
TD - 15
AD - 3 (TD Dead)
TD - 14

Final result I won by 2 HP.

So you can clearly see instead of each round the AD doing 20 points of damage it did something less. Each round the TD did something less then its max of 15. So if attacks are 1-Max as previously thought this data is incorrect. If AD did max damage with each individual weapon then it should have won in 3 rounds not 4.

Initial for Test 2:
AD HP = 58
TD HP = 48

AD Attack = 20
TD Attack = 17

Results Test 2:
AD - 15
TD - 15
AD - 20
TD - 17
AD - 13 (TD Dead)
TD - 13

Final result I won by 13 HP.

Ok so again you can see that save for round 2 the ships did not hit with max force each time.

Now I will grant you that maybe my premise for this test is flawed. But I think this clearly shows that even though the combat viewer doesn't show each individual weapon firing they do not fire 1-max which in this test would have been 1-1. So building a ship with nothing but 1 attack rating weapons does not break the current combat system.

Locked Post

Advanced Search

Watch this post

Do not email me updates for this post Email me updates for this post

Successfully updated karma reason!

kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

But I think this clearly shows that even though the combat viewer doesn't show each individual weapon firing they do not fire 1-max

Quite the opposite actually. Your test ships had 13 guns each, and never dealt less than 13 damage per round (final blow excepted). The only variance lay in the extra provided by your military bonus. I'm not entirely sure how that is applied on a per-weapon basis in the DA system, but I'll try to pin CodeCritter down on that. For the record, just how much military ability did you exactly have (55% or 60% it would appear, but specifics are best)?

Successfully updated karma reason!

So I figured maybe the flaw in my test above was that I had multiple weapons on the ships. I went back and tried it again this time with only one weapon on the ships.

Setup:
Large Hull
1 Missile
No Defense.

I'm not going to list the combat rounds since the battles went to max. Now heres the confusing part. Same naming as above so AD had 58 HP and TD had 56 HP. In the first test TD won by 8 HP. What I'm confused about is that AD (who attacked) got 50 shots off while TD (defender) got 51 shots. The final shot from TD is 7 damage. But that doesn't add up since that would have been only 57 HP damage from TD (50 rounds of 1 + 1 round of 7). Also if AD had done only 50 points total then TD should have won by 6 not 8.

Second test had TD winning again but this time with 6 HP left. Again its final shot was 7 damage.

So then I thought ok this is hitting the 50 combat turns limit so lets see what the smaller ships do. I ran the test 6 times with laser, missile, and gun using small and medium hulls. Each time the AD won by the HP difference and the combat rounds equaled the HP of the defeated ship.

From these tests now I have no idea what to think. For multiple weapons the system works as I thought on a per weapon basis. However when you've got only one weapon on the ship it does not miss. Save for the odd results when the HP of the ships is greater then 50 every time the ship with the more HP won by the amount of the HP difference.

Help

Successfully updated karma reason!

Ah... ok now that starts to make sense. So in my first set of tests the attack range was actually 13-20 for AD and 13-15 for TD. Interesting...

Now I know you didn't see the next post but what about the situation with 1 weapon and the large HP hulls?

I just checked in game my weapon bonus is indeed 60%.

Successfully updated karma reason!

kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

Save for the odd results when the HP of the ships is greater then 50 every time the ship with the more HP won by the amount of the HP difference.

When a battle reaches the round limit (50 for single combat, 300 for fleet), the game just decides which side is "tougher" and that side proceeds to fire single insta-kill shots at the enemy, regardless of the actual attack or defense powers involved. From your results it just looks like there's some strangeness or bugs in that process, but that's what's happening.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Well thx for clearing that up Kryo

.

I know those were extreme cases since once you've gotten better weapons it makes more sense to up your damage potential. But I wonder how well it works out More Guns vs. Better Max Damage. I guess the ideal is lots of guns doing lots of damage

Successfully updated karma reason!

kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

Ok, the military bonus is applied in its entirety to the first weapon of each type that fires. So in your first test, the first laser would roll 1-8 (1-1 +7 bonus), then all the rest would roll 1-1. If you'd had, say, 13 mass drivers on those ships as well, then the first mass driver to fire would also get a +7 bonus to its max roll.

While on the topic of bonuses, I asked about starbases too. If you have a starbase assist bonus, the total amount of each weapon class provided by the starbase is treated as a single weapon. However, the starbase can only target one ship even if it provides multiple classes of attack. Starbases in combat themselves behave the same way; each type of attack it has is totalled up as one shot per class, but it can only target a single ship at once.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Gotcha. And since fractions are thrown away that would explain why 1 weapon with 1 attack would not fire anything above 1 unless my attack bonus is 100%. All these under the hood goodies

.

So if I understand starbase assist correctly you are saying that if I add beam assist +2 that is a single weapon. If I then add +2 missile assist that is now 2 weapons right? So if a ship had 1 laser it would have attack of 1-3 for laser and 1-2 for missile but against only one ship?

Starbase combat is 1/1/1 for first battle stations. If I add say Atlas Sling I get 1/8/1 for attack. You are saying that is 3 attacks on one ship?

Successfully updated karma reason!

kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

So if a ship had 1 laser it would have attack of 1-3 for laser and 1-2 for missile but against only one ship?

No, the starbase would fire independently of any weapons the ship has in the same class. So the ship would roll 1-1 beam, 1-2 beam, and 1-2 missile, though not necessarily in that order. Both the firings from the starbase would have to be targeted at the same foe, though, while the 1-1 from the ship itself could target that one or another if the case merited such.

Starbase combat is 1/1/1 for first battle stations. If I add say Atlas Sling I get 1/8/1 for attack. You are saying that is 3 attacks on one ship?

Yes, the starbase would roll each class as an individual roll, but all targeting the same ship.

Edit: ignore anything I say if what CodeCritter says contradicts it or is more specific, he would know better

Successfully updated karma reason!

So if I understand starbase assist correctly you are saying that if I add beam assist +2 that is a single weapon. If I then add +2 missile assist that is now 2 weapons right? So if a ship had 1 laser it would have attack of 1-3 for laser and 1-2 for missile but against only one ship?

In your scenario that ship would have 2 beam weapons ( 1 with max attack of 1, another with max attack of 2) and 1 missile (with max attack of 2)

Starbase assist shots are fired AFTER the ship fires all of its weapons, and all starbase assist shots are targetted toward the ship's current target. (basically they all fire simultaneously at one ship)

Successfully updated karma reason!

Cools...

Well thank you both for your time in clearing this up and giving us players a glimpse at the under the hood fleet combat system. Much appreciated.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I'm not going to list the combat rounds since the battles went to max. Now heres the confusing part. Same naming as above so AD had 58 HP and TD had 56 HP. In the first test TD won by 8 HP. What I'm confused about is that AD (who attacked) got 50 shots off while TD (defender) got 51 shots. The final shot from TD is 7 damage. But that doesn't add up since that would have been only 57 HP damage from TD (50 rounds of 1 + 1 round of 7). Also if AD had done only 50 points total then TD should have won by 6 not 8.

I found a bug that caused some of the damage to not be displayed in the combat viewer. This has been fixed and should correct this discrepancy. Thank you for reporting it.

Successfully updated karma reason!

You're welcome.

Successfully updated karma reason!