Four Ideas to Stretch the Game Out

AngryPrairieDog

Join Date 12/2006

Four Ideas to Stretch the Game Out

I know a lot of people like to play a game in a night and so on, but I like to take weeks to play a game, putting a lot of work into a single effort to over take the odds by my simple ability to adapt to the computers lack of inginuity, or even fighting another player for that matter. So here goes.

Tech takes way to little time to research most of the time. I virtually dont care at all what tech I am researching later in the game so long as it is going eventually towards my goal. Seriously, there are no where near as many steps in terraforming a planet as there should be, yet there is an unbelievable number of weapons... The terraforming takes longer yes, but at the same time there is only 4 of them.

Solution: dont change current game modes, simply make a mode that makes technology research cost a lot more! At this time you should also change the balance of the game entirely, population will be responsible for the amount of production, research, and revenue, and these values will all directly relate to morale. Seriously, a happy worker is a hard worker. Create a system of trade both within the empire itself and externally, that result in goods that can be traded for added income, research, production, and morale. An outside trade route would generate much more income, but an internal trade route would generate more tourism, population balance, and vulnerability to attack.

Station Defense: Can I please send a ship to a station for defense and just leave it there. Guard and Sentry are both pretty much useless, and you still get prompted for action when doing both of these. If I select guard I should be given a prompt "Guard What?". Instead the ship says Guard....wow that does nothing. As enemy ships have flown past a "Guard" ship and attacked a colony/station. How on does guard/sentry work since they should be automatic yet they apparently require you to work hard to find out.

Population Morale: Lay off the insane penalty for population or reduce the amount of population that is increased with each farm, and increase the amout of morale that is boosted with each happiness building. Its insane that with one farm and anyone in the galaxy using espionage on me, I need to build between 4 and 8 happiness centers for a planet of 25b people...yes that is a lot but if you can provide for 25 billion people then you simply have 25 billion happy people. not 21b rebels. Happiness should be based on what you can provide, more tax payers means more angry people, but if you have 20 spaces to work with instead of 5 and still have the same population, you have a lot of people that are working, shopping, learning, and relaxing all over a planet instead of in a very small area. One would conclude from this that things were not overcrowded after all....

Borders! For crying out loud why can my enemy fly threw my borders at will?!?!

Influence doesnt make the US absorb more of Canada and Mexico... actually it is the other way around....

Anyways, I can understand an influence zone that allows you to alter a perception of your side in the eyes of another. I just cant tolerate the idea of a 2D surface, or even a 3D surface not having a definable border that a friend or enemy cannot cross. This by no means has to be the standard but seriously I hate the fact that the NPC can send ships to a planet and investigate that planet for defenses until it finds one it likes and attacks that.

Make it something you can vote on in the galactic senate, also as sensor technology progresses, you expand your border, say you have a 5 parsec range, you have a 3 parsec border. Stations should not only define your influence area but also your border, and the sensors on the station can enhance that border, thus making station more valuable as a barrier while reducing the combat capabilities of the station.

Even with research the way it is a player would be hard pressed to "corden" off a section of the map early and see a benifit from this barrier. However later in the game this could be used to lessen the burden on your economy by guarding less outposts than the planets you control and providing an early warning for you.

Other Ideas: Why is it that the Galaction Council votes on a random subject you are in no way in control of yet the NPC's are somehow. Say there is 4 races, then every 4th summit you should choose the topic.

Ship Upgrades: Can I get a button that upgrades all ships of a particular class to another class instead of going threw them all manually?

Weapons Balancing: Two class five lasers are equal to one class I missile...yeah so lets change hp's up a bit and damage up a lot so that weapons not only get smaller but actually do more damage instead of going threw a very limeted number of weapon types that really dont change anything in combat other than how my ship looks. I only say this because I fought a war against missile boats that were very poorly equiped and the size difference made no change at all, my ships were super fast compared to my enemy however in combat that made no difference at all. Basicly what it is now is I should arm ships to the teeth and put no engines on them at all.

Events: There seems to be an insane speculation behind choosing good and bad for events. I can see there only being good and bad benifits, but the good is rarely something you want, especially considering the tech opurtunities it opens up. Bad however seems to be the way to go. Balance the events out more, and also put events in place that have a positive and negative to choosing bad and good, thus allowing a planet that is good at research to get better at it, and sacrifice population growth....or something to that effect.

Sorry for being long winded but I just thought I would put in some ideas.

ideas

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Borders! For crying out loud why can my enemy fly threw my borders at will?!?!

This doesn't make sense to me, you have an empire in space, anyone could go anywhere in theory.

I am getting so tired of seeing this response. There should be some way to have borders in space, some way of marking your territory other than pissing on a tree. How do the Klingons or Romulans somehow 'know' that the Enterprise has just breached their territory... in space!?! How many other sci-fi movies/novels use the concept of borders and furthermore utilize the concept into a part of the story, if not the whole story line? Those of you who can't see there being 'borders' in space attribute it to the vastness, among other things, mainly. Wouldn't you think that technology would bridge the gap? I saw the comment regarding the middle ages, and walls and such, and how in today's age, borders are pretty much 'hypothetical'. Hypothetical eh? Try running across the border into Mexico or how about Canada. Okay, tried it? How easy was it? Did you make it without incident? You might be able to once or twice, maybe a few more times, but eventually, you will get caught. Borders/zones of control should be in the game, they should draw penalties for breaching, and they are definitely feasible/plausible/doable. Maybe not in this game, but regardless, a viable thing.

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I don't know about borders (reminds me of the "Frontier" in The Last Starfighter) but what bugs me is the ability to build starbase on enemy (or even "friendly") territory.

I think starbase construction should be limited to either your own space or "unclaimed" space. Cultural domination would still be a viable option although it'd probably take some tweaking of the Influence effect so you could construct Influencers along an enemy's cultural border / influence / whatever its called

It also would make it more strategic if there was natural "barriers" to space travel, like black holes, dwarf stars, pulsars, etc. You could have choke points along your (or the AI would) civilization to strategically place battlestations or fleets. Not sure if this would work on smaller maps, though, just a thought.

I'm not a fan of the colonization rush . . . . maybe the range at which you could actually detect a habitable planet could be vastly shortened, making it a much more painstaking effort (for you AND the AI) to find the plums.

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Wouldn't you think that technology would bridge the gap? I

I agree. Simple sensor buoys located on the edge or your "controlled space" should do the trick. You could do this 2 ways in the game. First, have the tech joined with the sensor tech tree that is already in use. Second, just say that they are there and write code that reflects this.

Example. A ship enters your space alerting a sensor buoy. A screen pops up telling you the area and depending on tech level... who entered your space.

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There should be some way to have borders in space, some way of marking your territory other than pissing on a tree.

There is a way, it is clearly marked on the game map by a hazy line the colour of your empire... The point being made is that even though you and your enemies know where you border is there is no way to stop them crossing it.

You could say there would be a giant forcefield in space or something

reminds me of the "Frontier" in The Last Starfighter

but let us assume in the Galactic Civilisation universe that sort of device does not exist (It doesn't exist in Star trek or Star wars for example, so I'd say it was a fair call).

How do the Klingons or Romulans somehow 'know' that the Enterprise has just breached their territory... in space!

They see it using their listening posts/patrol ships sensors, just like you see it using your starbases/patrol ships sensors.

In startrek what happens if the enterprise crossed the romulan neutral zone?
The romulans send a ship to tell them to go away. So should you.

Simple sensor buoys located on the edge or your "controlled space" should do the trick.

Is this not just starbases with sensor modules built on them?

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The romulans send a ship to tell them to go away. So should you.

Problem is that the "Go Away!"-option does not exist.
Encountering a ship in your space gives you the option between full scale war and letting the ship do whatever it wants to until there is a full scale war.

Is this not just starbases with sensor modules built on them?

No,,just like a navigation bouy isn't an oil platform.

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Good points

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Problem is that the "Go Away!"-option does not exist.

Exactly! I think some of you are missing the argument (or maybe I am

)but this is the point. The 'Guard' and 'Sentry' options are inherently useless. Sure we all know what civilization controls said area of influence, that isn't the issue. The issue is that when you are managing say, 200+ planets, on top of the host of other tasks like constructors and ship building, you can't always check every square foot of the map for enemies.
Sensor buoys make perfect sense as well as saying that starbases are similar in nature. The problem is they don't 'alert' you to an enemy vessel. If these settings work for other players then great but in my games, where guard and sentry almost never really 'work', it would be nice to have some sort of early warning system that would snap me out of what I was focused on and bring my attention to the possible threat.

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it is clearly marked on the game map by a hazy line the colour of your empire..

This is considered your sphere of influence, not necessarily "your borders". For arguments sake however, the suggestion would be to use these as the borders. Only problem with that would be other Civs which already occupy planets within your sphere of influence.

The point being made is that even though you and your enemies know where you border is there is no way to stop them crossing it.

There should not be a way to stop them unless you have combat ships in the area. Nothing like a few Blackhole Emitters shoved in ones face to get your point across.

Simple sensor buoys located on the edge or your "controlled space" should do the trick.

Is this not just starbases with sensor modules built on them?

No,,just like a navigation bouy isn't an oil platform

Exactly. A sensors buoy could be the size of sputnik. (about basketball size) This could (automatically) be assumed to already be existing within the "borders" or sphere of Influence. You wouldn't have to build a million constructors just to protect your space. Just research better sensors.

it would be nice to have some sort of early warning system that would snap me out of what I was focused on and bring my attention to the possible threat.

Alas, this is where the problem lies. If this isn't addressed, everything else is just water under the bridge.

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The argument that because it is space and therefore not a tangible material that you can define a line into is probably the most idiotic thing I have ever heard.

As previously stated borders are zones agreed upon by two or more parties that determine all responsibilites within that border. If I shoot an intruder in my house, within my border, I am within my legal rights to do so. Even if the intruder is a police officer or the freaking president, you break in to my house and your gonna get shot. However if you set off a nuclear weapon and the fallout crosses the border and makes the neighboring country glow in the dark, you are responsible.

That being said, we do have a border in real life that is just like space, its called airspace. Fly into our airspace and you get a warning, if you dont turn around you get shot in the face.

Can you have a border in space?

Yes

Does it need to be marked by a million useless objects that simply drain your manufacturing ability and make the game overly complex, and also pointless as the borders would constantly be shifting?

No

Do borders need to be placed in game, and given the option to be open, closed, or specific to your allies?

Yes

Borders most likely will not make it into the game, it complicates the idea of cultural conquest because that system is flawed in itself. A cultural station should amplify the cultural output of the system it is in, much like an economy starbase, however if you want to project it in a specific direction you build the station so that its SOI still intersects your planet(s) and is in between your planet(s) and the target planet. Then in combination with the station, building cultural centers on your planet amplifies this effect. This does however make it impossible in situations to just conquer the Galaxy by placing station whever you choose.

Its too simple to cultural conquer as it is. Take as much as you can as many ways as you can but dont make it so easy to just place stations wherever you choose. If you have culturally converted as many planets are within your reach but your cluster doesnt allow you to reach the rest of the galaxy, then oh well, that is the luck of the draw, time to suit up the troops, or start making alliances....or even convice a race to give you a planet....which I have never been able to do as of yet.

Anyways, fix influence, add borders, and the game will be far more interesting.

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Do borders need to be placed in game, and given the option to be open, closed, or specific to your allies?

This poses a rather interesting question. The open, closed or specific to your allies part of the question, is what really intrigues me here.

At first, in my earlier posts, I was just trying to give a type of early warning system that so many of us would like to see in the game. Instead of creating a new border, just use the existing sphere of influence border and instead of having to build starbases all over creation and spending billions upon billions for early warning, I had suggested just integrating the sensors tech into the borders themselves therefore giving you the notice whenever someone enters your space. Increasing your detection ability as you research sensor tech.

Closing the border of your space would of course be just words unless you have the "gun" to back it up. Not like you would have a huge fence to stop ships that are kilometers in length and weapons that can generate miniature black holes.

Why am I so intrigued with this? Simply because it poses a really interesting question for me. In DA, how do the Yor limit all non Yor units, to just 3 moves inside their zone of influence? What kind of technology is involved?

Anyone have any Ideas?

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What kind of technology is involved?

Probably some sort of gravity well or black hole emulator.

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In DA, how do the Yor limit all non Yor units, to just 3 moves inside their zone of influence? What kind of technology is involved?

Are you ready for the "it's a game" kind of reply?

As for the borders issue, the fact that more than one empire can colonize any star system doesn't really help with a clear delimitation of one's "territory".

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Are you ready for the "it's a game" kind of reply?

Sure Ice, I usually say the "it's a game" comment quite a bit when people scream and cry that certain things in the game aren't "Fair".I was just trying to spark a bit more conversation about how certain things are done. As far as...

the fact that more than one empire can colonize any star system doesn't really help with a clear delimitation of one's "territory".

This is very true as I stated in an earlier post. However, in DA I am quite sure you can colonize a planet in Yor space and be restricted in movement because you are within their sphere of influence. (Not 100% sure of this due to not being in the beta, so this is just an assumption on my part)

Therefore it should be quite feasible to implement borders.(using above methods)You would just have to get used to being alerted every so often when a ship enters your space heading towards that planet owned by someone else. It should not alert you to ships simply flying around in your territory, just to those that are crossing borders.

Bottom line, there should be no way to "close" your border, you should only be able to protect your border if you have the means, and with the proper tech, you should be able to, at the very least, monitor the traffic coming in and out of your territory.

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1. I'm on the side of the "Why is this galaxy so tiny, I thought it said gigantic"-people. I'd like to send two colony ships and a constructor into the distance and have to wait for a few months until they arrive at the next planet. I never even considered not playing at gigantic galaxies with abundant stars, planets and habitable planets. More than 6 races and a gigantic galaxy is just crowded like a New York subway. Hardly what I call 'vast space'.
Ships are just too fast for these tiny galaxies. Moves per week should be capped at 3 or something like that.
Trade the higher propulsion techs for some other improvement, like a Freelancer-like tradelane system that doubles speed along a certain route (that costs upkeep), or a starbase module that teleports ships from one starbase to another. There are quite nice military strategies such things would allow. Just somehow make the galaxies appear bigger measured against the speed of the ships.
2. I'd like to be allowed to shoot any alien military ship at will if they cross my borders. Then you wouldn't be able to just send your fleet to the AI and then declare war either. At the moment violation of my borders isn't a political drama as it should be, but absolutely normal.
3. Also agree with the domestic trade. There's just nothing happening within my empire except the odd alien ship taking a look at my planets. Domestic trade and some space-pirates would do some good. That would keep you busy.
4. The council is pretty strange too. Somehow I never get the chance to suggest something. I also can't ask other races what they'll vote for. It's stupid if I and another race vote for a starbase tax of 5bc, two other AIs vote for 2bc, but three vote for no tax and no tax wins. If I had known what the others will vote for I would've voted for 2bc and the law would've been passed.

All mentioned facts carry a "as far as I know". Due to GalCiv's shortcomings in galaxy size I don't play it that often. It just fails to create the athmosphere. I only play it when I think "This could've been such a great game", play two games and remember that actualy it isn't a great game. Currently I'm in the second game of this round and that's why I'm already beginning ranting about GalCiv's problems...

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I only play it when I think "This could've been such a great game", play two games and remember that actualy it isn't a great game.

*If* it was supposed to be a "real" space strategy game, yes, it could use a lot of work. Maybe it's only meant to be an empire building game with a space flavor. IMO less eye-candy and more content would have been better.

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As far as GalCiv not being a great game, I wouldnt say "Great" but its been worth the money for sure. For me, a lot of that has come from this single thread as the community in this game is awsome. The people that post on threads actually seem to think about what they say, and continue to add constructively at a minimum, or atleast be entertaining. Definately something I look forward to every time I come here to check on progress. My congratulations goes out to all involved in trying to make Galciv better.

Now, for the borders, I dont believe that you should put a physical barrier in place, yes because the resources would be staggering but also because there is no border in the air between the US and Canada but you dont see them flying fighter planes over our soil unless they are invited. The idea is meant to be a basic line of demarcation that says "this is my stuff". Then you place restriction on your border via open, close, and so on. This will remove some of the frustration of having npc ships flying around in your space as well as having the advantage of preventing them from knowing the full extent of your resources. Basicly like Civilization series where you have a map that you know, and you can trade that map for knowledge of what others know. These keeps you enemies from knowing exactly where to strike, and when.

The open, close, nuetrel, and restricted settings would allow people to travel or not travel based upon your choices much like the civilization model. Strategically it could be important to your allies as if your empire is in between two waring parties you could strategically give your ally a head start by denying access to your border to the opposing force, making them detour around your space to reach your friend. While your friend flies right threw. This could get you involved in a war though but your choices will have consequences either way.

Open would allow anyone to travel in your space, but not fight in your space.

Close is obvious, cross my borders and we are at war.

Nuetrel is how you start out, and anything goes.

Restricted is better described above but limits who can travel in your space.

The black hole thing is a great idea though, as lining you border with these would not only deny access to your space but also deny your enemy and everyone the ability to see past your black hole with sensors. Allowing you to do whatever you want inside your borders. However this would make trade impossible and alien tourists would be non existant as well. Every sacrifice comes with a good purpose though so in a heated war you could funnel your enemy with these to choke points in which you could fight your opponents more efficiently that having the biggest military in the game.(or just the best military)

Think different technologies along these lines that determine border range from planets and stations, and also can cause specific effects like reducing sensor penetration and making your fleets seem more powerful.

Just a few more thoughts.

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You are right, I did take the freedom of being subjective for once.
Of course GalCiv2 is a good game. I like the folks at Stardock and congratulate them to the game. There are just some things that I would've wished for to make it a better game for me. Wether that would've increased sales - I don't know. But it would sure have made it a better game for me.
I can only give feedback and say what I would like. It's not my decision which of this influences the game-series. I'm not making demands. I'm giving feedback.
Sorry for not explaining the spirit I'm writing in before.

For now a simple solution for me is to remove the higher propulsion techs with a custom mod to increase the galaxy size relative to the movement rate of the ships. That doesn't turn bronze into gold, but at least it get's a copper-ish hue to it.

I'll have to take a deeper look at modding to see what I can fix manually.

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This is from one of my posts:

It has come to my attention that Galciv2 needs borders. All nations have borders. All through out history there have been borders...and if a hostile nation crosses it, well it won't be pretty. I KNOW about the ring of "influence", but it is not a border. It makes no sense NOT to have one! Technically you can't own space, but in all good sci-fis there are borders to say "hey keep out" or "I'm bigger that you! Stay out!".

To me, It seems kind of fishy when enemy ships are going around your planets to get at the enemy on the other side. Wouldn't YOU want your space to be free of alien ships? Plus, it would create fun and challenging scenarios. EX:The biggest civ is in the middle of you and your enemy. You can: 1) Go through their borders and risk retaliation 2) Go Around Go Around! 3) Anything else you can think of!

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Here are some of my best forum links: (some are old, but they have good ideas. The linker was actig strange, so just copy and past.

)

This one is about Espionage:
https://forums.galciv2.com/?forumid=357&aid=141105#1100450

this one is about the music in Galcv2
https://forums.galciv2.com/?forumid=247&aid=138172#1099820"

This one is about land combat:
https://forums.galciv2.com/?aid=136901#1067597

Pirates:
https://forums.galciv2.com/?aid=138018#1071198

Civilization ordinances:
https://forums.galciv2.com/?forumid=247&aid=104368#953709

Special races:
https://forums.galciv2.com/?forumid=247&aid=134131#1039125

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Sorry for not explaining the spirit I'm writing in before.

I was actually agreeing with you

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I agree with both of you, I understand a first person shooter being graphicly intense and short, mainly because shooting stupid NPC's gets old and its all about the multiplayer. Stratagy should be less about aww factor of graphics and more about providing people with something that keeps them entertained for a long time, with tons of variables, and cool features.

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Well, Civ2 had the Encroachment warning, "Get away from my city or its War", I think that for all save freighters it should be employed, unless that race is your ally (again, just like Civ). Starbases don't count IMO.

Of course that should count for space that is only X parsecs / distance from your planets and not occluded by the fog of war (I can't think of an instance where space near a planet isn't visible, but you never know . . . )

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I was actually agreeing with you

That's nice. Though I still felt that I needed to explain my views.

About the idea of modding for my purposes. This is where I currently am:
1. Using a "propulsion per mass"-concept isn't possible in GalCiv. So the propulsion tech tree is gone completely. So are engines. All ships move at 2 parsecs a week. For ever. Sounds drastic, but works.
That means that the galaxy is really big now. Also that means that even in the endgame small fighters are just as fast as capital ships. Also those rediculous 12 parsec/week constructors are gone now. No more jumping into the enemy empire and building a military starbase with 6 modules in one single turn or something like that.
It's not even possible to reinforce a battle anymore. It just takes so long for the ships to arrive!

(Latest strategy: Send 4 fleets towards the enemy. By the time they arrive you have researched a new logistics level and can merge them into two fleets.)
2. Eye of the universe is gone. Now I need to keep an eye on my tradelanes myself. Starbases are useful.
3. All weapon stats were multiplied by their damage.
That means a damage 1 weapon stays the same, but a size 10, 50bc and 5 damage weapon now consumes 50 space units, costs 250bc and deals 25 damage. Only big ships get the huge guns, and I mean huge. If they hit basically everything is toast. It'd be a good idea to counter with a mix of smaller ships.
The balancing of the weapons is untouched by this. I'm just forcing you to build 5 weapons on the same slot. 4 times 5 damage isn't possible, only 5 by 5. So weapons come in damage classes of 1, 4, 9, 16, 25, etc.
In my testgame I have weapons that are so big I can't attach them to anything. I need to uncover the later techs so the needed size goes down and I can actually use them. I like that.

Miniaturization becomes important here.
This obviously needs some tuning, but it's a nice quick fix.
4. Orbital terraforming is gone. I would've liked to substitute it with another level of creating new tiles, but GalCiv2 doesn't support that.
5. I'm thinking about including a 'Starbase' class ship that has more space for weapons than a capital ship, but moves at one parsec a week. Every ship in the galaxy can run away from it, but not a single one can move past it without a fight, because that'd require 4 parsecs a week. That'd be something nice for strategically important places, like crossections of tradelanes.
6. Troops transport capacity is cut down to half. Now you either need a fleet of transporters or have to use the nasty assault strategies.

If anyone wants a copy of the edited files I can pack them up and send them via mail. I wouldn't call it a mod yet, merely a hack.

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

Using a "propulsion per mass"-concept isn't possible in GalCiv. So the propulsion tech tree is gone completely. So are engines. All ships move at 2 parsecs a week. For ever. Sounds drastic, but works.

You could give engines a small size, large sizemod value, and set them to only allow one per ship.

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I like it vain, you should also look at jubjub15's thread on espionage, would be nice to see the enemy tech in the tech tree, if you can mod would be a nice addition.

The weapons sizes are the best, I hate that small ships in current game are pretty much useless unless equipped with far superior technology to that of your enemy, now small fleets would be great to counter the super star destroyer type ships your building.

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