Expansion Wishes: Racial Pick, Border, ChokePoint, Terror Star, UP & Ethics

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Join Date 03/2006

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Expansion Wishes: Racial Pick, Border, ChokePoint, Terror Star, UP & Ethics

There are 5 gripes for GalCiv2, hopefully the following will implement in the Expansion:
A) All races feel and play almost the same, in long term

No choke point on map
C) No TerrorStars
D) Ethic & UP is good but not interesting enuf
E) UI does not show all information for decision-making, poor use of focus & lack of keyboard shortcut
I assume the AI will know how to utilize them and will act even smarter.

I've tried to limit my 'wish' to the essential. I avoid UI enhancement here.

A) Races can be differentiated more by:
Make a slider of 0/1/2/Random number of unique racial pick in beginning E.g.
- All hull give 10 sensor range
- Aquatic habitat: a PQ10 planet for you is a PQ4 for other race, vice versa
- Orbital habitat: colony builds only at the orbit of planet, all of them is regarded as PQ10; succeed in invading means colony destroyed
- Non-resource starbase has base move of 1 parsec/week
- Double all surveying bonus and can build survey module in the beginning
- Omniscient: see the whole map in real time
- 3 random advanced technology
- +20% PQ to all colonies
- All border technology researched
- UP counsel member: 30% chance to pick topic at each UP
- Religious: 1% chance per week, presented with 3 galaxy-wide random event, you pick 1 of them to happen (e.g. econ boom, PQ boom etc)
- Ignore all effect of Nebulas
- Hive mind: colony will never deflect, etc etc

B1) Map can have more choke point by using Border Technologies

The following 4 different new Border tech. can be researched after Diplomacy, in no particular order:
1) Economic Border
- Any civilian ships can go inside the border. Military ships cannot enter, unless war is declared
- if other race's military ships is within border is already in the border when Economic Border is enforced, they stay without penalty or war declaration
2) Federation Border
- If the race relationship is neutral or better, the civilian & military ships of that race can enter
- Any other military ships can only go in after war is declared
3) Restrictive Border
- Only civilian ships of friendly (or better) race can enter
4) Closed Border
- The only way to for any ship get into border is to declare war.
0) No Border
- any ship can enter, the original border system in v1.1, no research required

A slider is used for player to choose which kind of border s/he currently enforce.
- New pre-game option to set one default border status for all races
- Any ships of Team or alliance race can always get into your border.
- Freighter can get into any border, regardless of the border status or relation.

Definition:
i) Border & Passage right
- Border is defined by the race's influence
- If a starbase or planet of another race is located within the border, that other race has the right of passage for its Civilian & Military ships to that Sector, regardless of the border status or relationship.
ii) Civilian ships are defined as any unarmed ships & (un)armed surveying ships. Ships that contains freighter/constructor module no longer carry any weapon in their design. Everything else is military ship

B2) (one time, semi-, or permanent) Wormholes
- There can be 1 way or 2 way wormholes
- Really expensive stargate can (only) be built in Military starbase, act likes permanent 2 way worm hole for team-mates
- The larger the hull, the higher chance that it never gets out
- Only 1 fleet will get out of it per 4 weeks, in random sequence

B3) Nebulas
- 2 types, both occupies a grid square
i) non-passable
ii)OR those passable one will reduce 20%HP for staying there each week
- Minefields act like those passable Nebulas, can only be built by surveyors, costing 1 weeks' tax income each
- Minefield is semi-permanent, 1% chance of self destruct per week

C1) Terror Star
New Super Project that allows movement of Military starbase, which open up a New starbase Movement Module
Each Movement module increase speed by 1 parsec, each additional one is way more expensive than the proceeding one
Movable starbase produce huge influence, when travelling at other non-team race's border
Cause a double minus in diplomacy for that non-team race, if residing within other non-team race's border
Cause a minus in diplomacy to all good race
Evil race have new achievement that +25% HP for all movable starbase

i)A New module: Shipyard
- can only be built in Military starbase
- very expensive, e.g. equal to all previous 0.125 year of tax income.

ii)A New module: Manufacturing module
- have an effect of building 1 more Factory on the starbase (for building ships from shipyard)
- these factory are updated instantly to latest factory tech, without cost
- its total number of them is restricted by its Logistic level (or something like 2X of such)
- each module on the starbase can house 1000m troops, used for defense & invasion
- each extra module get exponentially more expensive, but it give also more HPs, eg. 5, 10, 20, 40, 80, 100, 120, etc.
- add 1 ship slot for forming a fleet in starbase, regardless of logistic ability

iii)A New Module: Obital Gun
- can only be built in Military starbase
- Attack any fleet under the influence area without retailation, once per week
- very expensive, e.g. equal to all previous 0.25 year of tax income.
- allow attack of colony by Mass Drivers / Core Disruption / Tidal Disruption, if such tech is known

iv)Starbase & Population
- Starbase can be conqured by enemy troopers pod, only regular military warefare is allowed
- When attacking a starbase, attacker can choose an attack type called Strategic Bombardment instead. The defending starbase itself will have Dbl attack & defense value. If defending starbase lost, all military enhancement is distroyed, including Orbital Gun.

v)Economy starbase
- can only be built on a planet that is not inhabitated
- avoid abuse of building so many of them around to booast planet economy

vi)Misc
- Only 1 constructor can build module on starbase per week, others will be queued automatically subsequent week
- Once Orbital Defence is researched, fleets in any starbase automatically form a fleet, limited by logistic level
- Team ships inside the Military starbase's ZOC always attack first

D1) UP
- Add the UP meeting tab permanently
- 2 week before UP, the agenda & other race's decision (if espionage is high enuf) is shown
- Allow trading of UP decision with other race

D2) Ethics
- Ethics decisions choices continue, even after Xeno Ethics is researched
- If your Ethic changed to one different from what you've chosen when Xeno Ethics is researched, there would be NO morale bonus in ALL morale resource and building, until you are back to original Ethic.
- Use of Mass Drivers / Core Disruption / Tidal Disruption, destroying a colony, breaking alliance will make race more evil
- Some UP resolution that you support and been passed will affect your ethical standing
- A good race starting a war with another good race will make its race more evil
- A good race starting a war with another evil race will make its race more good
- A evil race that starts an alliance with good/neutral race will make its race more good
- A good race that starts an alliance with neutral/evil will make its race more evil

That is all I want for an expansion (when AI is smart enuf to utilize every new feature). I do NOT think the following are necessary:
New campaign, new race, new gfx, new music a different espionage, enhanced tactical ship combat, space captain/hero, terraforming PQ0, capturing ship etc.

PBEM & simultaneous Multiplayer is very nice, however I personally do need it.

Of course, if some of those wishes show up in v1.2, I don't mind!

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Knute112: I bet you also notice the map as of now is completely flat & featureless? If you mentally convert it to a Civ4 map, it is a map with no hill, no river; every galciv2 map is a square plains map with some towns scattered here and there. That's why I have a modest wish for devs to provide chokepoints. (but of course that means AI would need to be smart about path finding and know which area is important simply b/c it is a chokepoint etc, etc...)

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Frankly, the business about perceived trespassers could be handled with the ability to send a message to the offending AI similar to the "I know what you're doing" message and the AI could then decide what to do about your arrogance. The messages would have to be pre-determined (via a dropdown box, perhaps) because of the wildly varying use of grammer and word choice that the AI would have to interpret. [You would need a Universal Translator for REAL.

]

The current way to deal with the AI doing something that is offensive (both senses of the word) is to demand the surrender of the offending item(s), or be willing to blow it / them up. I really don't see how any of the "border" proposals change the basic facts of the matter. All the proposals seem to be an institution of a universal "Treaty". If you (or the AI) ignore the treaty, how is that different from the status quo?

The only bits of space that is YOURS is what you are physically occupying. If you want to interdict the AI(s) from an area, you have to physically blockade it. Potentially very expensive, definitely a PITA, but gee - that sounds like what you would have to do IN REAL LIFE. I don't THINK this will block any existing trade routes (not having tested it), but it will keep freighters and other "civilian" ships out as well unless you manually break the blockade for them.

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A few of quick thoughts. i would say that borders should be a purely diplomatic tool. basically, i want the ability to draw a line (where ever i want) and say "if you go in here i'll do X" and if someone goes there have the computer inform me (or just follow a preset set of instructions). this would add the realism of modern borders. the US ignored Iraqi borders, but canada is respectful of US borders. it would also give you more diplomatic options. if its late game and a new anomaly appears (an idea i'm fully in support of) it would allow me to claim it even if i'm far away. people bigger than me would ignore it, but small races would leave it for me. i strongly object to any hard borders (areas i can't move ships into).

i personally would like constructors to last more than one mission. i don't mind the time involved, but i would like the ability to just tell a constructor to build a starbase (which i predesign) and then have it shuttle back and forth between my planets and the starbase building it. it seems silly to me that such a huge infrastucture investment would only be able to do one journey. (maybe the first one should vanish, since its body is used to build the station, but is does it really take a whole constructor to carry a +1 sensor bonus?).

I'd really like fighters. I'd really like independtly controlable planets (or is this an option? i'm a bit confused about that), i.e. i want one planet fully producing and one planet not etc. i personally don't mind the races similarities. i think it'd be hard to make them truly unique without really rebalancing the game.

I REALLY want multiplayer. its the only time i feel challenged in these games (once i get to know them. i still feel challenged by the game right now, but i've only had it a short while. Multiplayer will make it last forever. I still play MOO2 all the time with friends).

I'd like more late game random events. more control over the council (if i control 2/3rds of the galaxy, why is it that i have NO IDEA what is going to be discussed at hte next meeting? seems a bit odd. i can accept that i don't get to write the agenda, but would the US or any coutnry really participate in an international body that discusses issues randomly?) i'd like a responsive council e.g. if two races go to war, i'd like a special session be called for the rest of the races to take a stand (or not) on the war much like the UN does. I'd like ethics to be more variable and continue to change over time (and not be a technology. i don't mind the idea of philosophy techs, but please. i should be able to be good/evil without researching it).

I apologize for not commenting more on the overall thread topics.

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I would like a new (invasion) tech wich allows to make a planet unusable (ie 100% PQ-loss) after you have invaded it successfully because these low quality planets like Mars really suck.
It takes more recources to defend them as they can ever produce, so I would rather destroy then conquer them.

Another solution would be to increase the number of improvable(with soil enhancement, terraforming) fields, so that you can develop a class 3 or 4 planet to at least 10.

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Frankly, the business about perceived trespassers could be handled with the ability to send a message to the offending AI

not really since you would need to have some code to form a frame of referance for the message otherwise with no in game borders then how will the AI know what the 'warning' is about. and if you are going to create enough of a system of fantom borders to have this warning ability why not finish the step and allow the players to SEE what the AI allready conciders our respectiave areas

for example i rather like it when i get messages FROM the Ai about how they dont like my starbases, yet i cant return them , why? it seems to me the spacial ques are allready in place, after all the AI has to 'know' that my SB is in a given section of space in relation to them right? after all i get no complaints about starbases that are clearly in my sectors, how come the reverse isnt implimented? why isnt the AI ques about where and when to complain about SB placement not visiable?

the only way i can really see implimenting any kind of choke points in space is either via SBs and interdiction fields that really work and work hard like reduce all non allied ships to 1 turn per week, or something like mine fields.

i do agree space is large, but its as large for them as it is for us. if we can scan it we whould be able to controll it given enough ships as the enemy and a comperable millitary. world class militarys can allready controll large areas from bases far away. hell those drones that are being used to attack terrorists are being actualy flown from Washington. why insist that when we move into space that somehow it then becomes the wild west with no sence of controll? there were no borders on earth when adam and eve were exiled but since the very first humans split off into deferent tribes then borders have become the norm by wich different cultures interact.

the British navy used to say that their ships of the line didnt have wheels but if it was wet then they could own it. space is just like that only more so , the only limiting factor in space is the range/logistics of ships ............ i expect that a claim on teritory would be even LARGER given the fact that unlike battle ships not being able to reach into the heart of Asia or Europe. space battle ships CAN reach any place in the universe. knowing that there is no river or mountian range between their homeworld and ours then borders "of the mind" if you will would become even MORE importiant.

If the "locals" don't like your there, they can tell you about it. Then, you decide if moving there is worth any risks. The borders are in your mind, not in actual space.

i disagree, since a border has atleast 2 sides it needs to be established in atleast 2 minds. and since its having to be established in 2 minds then why cant we have a map that shows that agreement?

im not advocating that the game should flat out stop AI ships from being able to get close to my space im just asking for some way of atleast being able to stop them without a flat out anouncment of war. if i wandered into your living room would you settle for either jumping into a brawl with me or just letting me stay? if after i was in your living room i then started building a poker table and calling some of my friends to come and play cards later, would you still want to have either a knock down drag out or again just let me stay? in real life there is several options. all we are suggesting is that there should be in the game too.

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I kind of like the mine field idea, and I am all for enhancing the diplomatic aspects of the game.

I happen to disagree with Fighters, and enforcible borders. I dont like the idea of fighters because I just dont think it will substantially add to the enjoyment of the game, and make ship building a great deal more complicated. I dont like enforcible borders or terrain, because Douglas Adams said it best. Space is big.

Minefields I can see being somewhat workable, but I see them being expensive.

END COMMUNICATION

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You are right Knute you can control space with enough ships. you want to secure your borders its simple, just build 100,000 ships and position them at the edges of your influence, problem solved. This is the nature of the unimaginable vastness of space. I believe the problem fo borders can best be solved using a historical solution, namely the convention used for setting territorial waters. No country with any meaningful coastline can constantly monitor its entire territorial water, but moving a military vessel inside the 200 nautical mile limit without consent can be considered an act of war. Give every inhabited star system a border of a given radius (say 5 parsecs), say this radius is established by interstellar convention. If a star system is held by two or more races then the terirtory is disputed and any of those races and enter the border freely, but large military buildups would cause a fall in relations. Otherwise any military vessel entering the range without some right of passage agreement starts a war. This border would be totally unrelated to influence, whih would remain as it is.

I don't think mining empty space makes sense, but there is an alternative. Make it possible to mine planets (friendly or neutral). Any attempt to attack (or colonise) would result in damage. Perhaps allow for miltary ship to attack the minefield and slowly destroy it.

One little note about interdiction fields: Each space is a parsec, being about 3.2 light years (if I remember correctly). Whatever particles make up the field can only move at light speed (particles don't have hyperdrive) so once you turn the device on it will take 3.2 years (about 160 turns) to get to a 1 square radius. This means that by the time the field gets big enough to be useful the game will be over.

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I really don't see how you can have impassable borders in an immense 3-D space. Chokepoints are usually caused by the inability of a unit/supply route to negotiate the terrain. Space ships should be able to go wherever they phyiscally can. If the "locals" don't like your there, they can tell you about it. Then, you decide if moving there is worth any risks. The borders are in your mind, not in actual space.

I don't see what people don't understand about the borders. Just because the environment is 3 dimensional doesn't mean we can't have borders. OUR world is 3-dimensional yet we still maintain borders. Why? Because we have the ability to detect incoming warships. Are you telling me advanced races such as those in game don't have the ability to detect incoming enemies? Many of us aren't trying to suggest implementing actual impassable borders, we merely want the ability to have a type of radar around the planets that act as a "border." When enemy ships enter this region you or the AI will become alerted and the relations automatically drop.

I also proposed earlier that these "borders" be allowed to expand and contract based on the amount of money put into the system(whatever it is). That way you can develop a strategy to block off certain sections of space if you create radii large enough to overlap between two systems. Of course, this would be very costly to maintain.

Anyway, I don't think this is unrealistic at all and it's one of the things I wish they would improve.

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One little note about interdiction fields: Each space is a parsec, being about 3.2 light years (if I remember correctly). Whatever particles make up the field can only move at light speed (particles don't have hyperdrive) so once you turn the device on it will take 3.2 years (about 160 turns) to get to a 1 square radius. This means that by the time the field gets big enough to be useful the game will be over

heh you pulled that right out of yur hat.

since ships move at greaeter than light speeds, what makes you think that other particles cant?

weapons must move at greater than light speeds to hit ships that can, you suggest that interdictions beams cant?

really it makes much more 'realistic' sense to me that a interdiction beam can move at greater than light speeds , than that we can stuff 500 million troops into one ship

I believe the problem fo borders can best be solved using a historical solution, namely the convention used for setting territorial waters. No country with any meaningful coastline can constantly monitor its entire territorial water,

also not true, the US as an example monitors its coast in real time, and fully. we have the ability to know every ship and plane in our waters. that doesnt mean we know that what that craft is transporting. but we know its there. and thats here in earth with storms, and deep oceans, and other forms of bad enviroments that disrupt our 'sensors' in open space with no such enviroments it would be even simplier to know whats in our 'radar' range. hell if we can spot missle launches by N korea on the other side of the planet from us AS THEY LAUNCH we can surly spot an incoming fleet of warships from parsecs out in the distiant future.

if we are to swollow that things like the eyes of the galaxy can let us see across thousands of light years from a freighter than i dont think that detection can be argued against the border idea

jbauer said it pretty well though imo with his last post. this isnt rocket science. especialy given all the other future tecs we are asked to swollow for the sake of game play. such as cultural 'fliping' of whole planets. we can cause whole civilizations to surrended to us due to our big mac's and soap operas but we cant guard the Sol system out to 1000 lightyears or so? piffle

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Oh wait I think I get it-- A thru E are things you want the expansion to FIX. Ok.

A) Making races more unique is a good thing. I can get behind that.

This is a radical change, while it may be good or not remains to be seen. I'd like to see it as an option maybe. Also see Brad's thought on Features. What may sound good may be a beast to get the AI to use and use it well.

C) I don't agree with terror stars if they would destroy planets and stars. But being able to make some bad ass starbases I would like to see too! Although this too the AI must be competent with or its unbalancing the difficulty levels.

D) I can agree with those too.

E) I am with you there too.

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Prince of Crows:

moving a military vessel inside the 200 nautical mile limit without consent can be considered an act of war. Give every inhabited star system a border of a given radius (say 5 parsecs), say this radius is established by interstellar convention

I do not think assigning e.g. 5 parsecs radius is a better solution than using influence as per my suggestion.

Reason #1 is, somesimes 5 parsec is not enough fill the games btwn your planets to form a frontline (or a corridor of control that your ships travel safely)
Reason #2 is, influence zone has the ability to maximize its area of effect. However, it is a very strategic play to disrupt that, if you really want to get to the other side of others "frontline" peacefully by making a peaceful infl. war, i.e. building infl. starbase, colonizing those small PQ planet for the infl. effect etc.

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The more I think of it, I like the idea of having a "border spending slider" that decrease the radius of your border control if you are not spending that to 100%. I always found I have more $ than I need in late game. Maybe this spending should increases over time, so player still have to care about effect of money.

To avoid cheesy tactics, this slider can only be moved 1% per week.

This spending of border conceptualize the $ spend to monitor the border (say be non-armed immigration ships, sensors etc that does not show up in our map)

As I said many times above, this border is more about being a policy, a dipomatic tools for bargaining.

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Supreme Shogun: thanks for your support. I have read Brad's feature and I of course assume Brad will work hard on this new border feature

I am just convinced that border feature will provide so much more fun than many other features requested in this forum. Sure it may be complex, it may be hard to balance, may be AI need major work. But I think it offer a great level of strategic depth.

I just don't buy the saying that 'space is so huge, so everyone can go to my lawn and BBQ.'

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I have been quite shy in saying whether a TerrorStar should be able to destroy planet or stars. The following is open for discussion:

C1 vii) New Stellar Converter constructor Module
- Pernmanently reduce the neighboring planet's PQ by 1 per week; detroy population, planetly improv in pro-rata basis.
- This action continues automatically until PQ=0 or if the StarBase is 2 or more parsec from a planet.
- If the planet is habitated, the crew on the stabase will refuse unless they are of evil race and war is also declared. This action increases the 'fear' factor in diplomacy.

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If the planet is habitated, the crew on the stabase will refuse unless they are of evil race and war is also declared. This action increases the 'fear' factor in diplomacy.

On top of that I would like to see a invading force not commit mass genocide on a conquered planet killing every last man woman and child. I find it funny that in such a game like GalCiv where there are morals and they do play a part in the game that they overlooked the fact that you do kill every one on a conquered planet. The morality of the game has always made me like it but that is rediculus.

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