warreni

Join Date 12/2005

+86

Spore Creature Creator tempest in a teapot

Is this really all about people hating EA?

Go to any major gaming site (ign.com, gamespy.com, gamespot.com, to name a few) or the official Spore website and look at the forums discussing the Creature Creator, a limited version of which became available for download yesterday and the full version of which will be available for retail purchase tomorrow. You will invariably find many comments that say "I can't believe EA/Maxis/Will Wright/Will Wright's evil clone is actually charging $10 for this software; what a rip-off!" I'm having a really hard time understanding this mindset. I've seen some people claiming it stems from a distrust of distributor EA, with whom they've had some bad dealings in the past. Other people, I guess, are just cheap. Let me try to dissect this weird controversy.

Here are some basic facts: 1) EA/Maxis released a demo version of the Creature Creator, a component of the Spore game slated for release in September on June 17; 2) this demo version is limited to approximately one-quarter of the usable parts available in the "full" version, to be released in retail outlets and for download June 19; 3) the demo version is FREE to download, excepting internet-service charges; and 4) the full Creature Creator, as mentioned earlier, will be a part of the release version of Spore.

So given the above facts, where is the controversy? It seems to come down to two items: 1) that EA/Maxis had the audacity to charge money for what is seen as an advertisement for the full game; and 2) that EA is synonymous with EvilCo Ltd. I guess I have a lot of responses to those who adhere to the first argument. I would start by pointing out that the Creature Creator cannot logically be compared to a "game demo," which is a version of a full game intended to show off many of its core features. The Creature Creator is what it says it is; Spore, if one believes the hype, is considerably more. The full game allows the user to take creatures that have been built with the Creator module and guide them along an evolutionary path up from the "cell" stage to a stage where the creatures have societies capable of launching interplanetary spacecraft and colonizing other worlds. It's sort of a compressed (and paradoxically, at the same time, expanded) version of one of Wright's much earlier creations, SimLife. EA/Maxis may eventually release a true demo of Spore but this clearly is not it.

My second response would be to ask whether the complainant has ever purchased a "pre-release" version of anything? If so, (s)he should probably just go home and quit looking for things to grouse about. Why does anyone buy a pre-release whatever? Because you're expecting it to be almost like playing a full game? Because the developer will come to your house and upgrade your computer? I mean, really, what are people expecting? I have a pre-release from the old Bioware game Lionheart. It had a CD-ROM with some music files and wallpapers and a pack of trading cards. I have a pre-release for Guild Wars: Nightfall; it has a few in-game goodies and some music and some videos. I also have a pre-release for Icewind Dale II; if I recall correctly, it came with a mousepad and some music tracks and artwork. I think the real reason people spend money on pre-release items for games is that they're fanboys of that company/game franchise. Most of these "pre-releases" are hardly worth $2-3, let alone the average $10 they cost; however, if you're one of those people who likes to pimp out his/her computer with game-themed items (guilty) or you're just really into certain games for a while (also guilty), they're worth it to you.

So what does the Creature Creator let you do? Basically, it gives you the same tools that you will eventually have in the full release and lets you start making creatures now, three months before the release date of the game, that you can later import and start playing with in the full game. In practical terms, it gives you a head start on players who just buy the full game in September without having purchased the CC. People will be interested in this for different reasons. As anyone who's ever played a game with a multiplayer component can attest to, some people are really competitive and like to see their names on top of leaderboards for whatever the game du jour is at that moment. Some people just like to make creatures and movies and post them to Youtube to see what the reactions will be.

I tinkered with the demo version a little yesterday. It's pretty fun to toy with, but with only a fairly limited number of components, it feels like I'm missing out on being able to create more off-the-wall critters. However, it is perfectly adequate as a way of demonstrating how this module of the full game will work, and it's pretty clever, frankly.

So that leaves the EA-haters, I suppose. I don't know what to say about these folks really. EA is a huge company that distributes a large chunk of the games put out on the market today, including a fair number of console titles. Because it's so huge, it's hardly surprising that people have had bad experiences over the years with customer service or tech support. But does this really mean that it's necessary to "dis" a game whose only input from EA has been that it acts as distributor? Is it not sufficient to let a game stand or fall on its own merits anymore? If Spore turns out to be a complete crapfest, are these people still going to blame EA? Doesn't that seem a bit absurd on its face?

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Better make sure that if/when you uninstall, you get the SecuROM off. In the meantime, enjoy having it phone home around your back.

Therein lies the rub for me; not the demo/$10 thing, not the fact that EA is publishing it. It's the DRM.

Reason enough to keep me far, far away from it.

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Quoting SanChonino,

comment 1

Better make sure that if/when you uninstall, you get the SecuROM off. In the meantime, enjoy having it phone home around your back. Therein lies the rub for me; not the demo/$10 thing, not the fact that EA is publishing it. It's the DRM.Reason enough to keep me far, far away from it.

Okay, I hadn't read anything about DRM for Spore. Where are you getting this information, SC? Do you have a link? Also, wouldn't purchasing a direct download from the Spore website eliminate any concerns about DRM?

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Just a couple of posts about it from GalCivII:

Show us your creature!

Warning: Contains Spyware

Another source, not from a Stardock site.

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I can fully understand why people are upset. Since so much of Spore is going to rely on user created content, they're essentially trying to charge people TWICE for the same content. You get the editor for $10, then you pay AGAIN for the editor when you buy the game. I personally think folk who pre-order should get the full version to play with.

Not only that, EA have hit on a brilliant money spinner. Charging folk $10 to create content for their upcoming game rather than paying people to do it. Awesome.

As for the DRM, a bigger concern is whether Spore will follow Mass Effect and have only 3 "activations". While I'm enjoying playing with the creature editor (the demo one. Refuse to pay EA for something I'll get if I buy the game in a couple of months anyway, plus it means there'll be less NEW content for me to enjoy on release day), the DRM issues is concerning me enough for me to potentially hold off.

The direct download of Spore is being done via Digital River. I've had both good and horrendous experiences with them in the past.

Bad: Worldwide Soccer Manager. Game wouldn't run and kept crashing. Ultimately wound up using a no-cd crack and all the problems disappeared.
Good: Anything I've bought from Matrix Games. This was just simple "enter the serial" stuff and everything works awesome.

If Spore has limited installs, as much as it pains me I may have to not buy it. I have at least two systems I need it on (my desktop and my laptop) and my kids will want it on theirs too. Not sure about the missus, but that's four installs right there.

Only thing I know for sure is I am NOT buying the disk based version unless something fairly major happens in regards to the DRM. The direct download, I will most likely wait a day or two after release. I'm tired of being the software industries bitch and having broken software on release day, so other suckers can try it out. I can wait an extra few days.

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CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

You get the editor for $10, then you pay AGAIN for the editor when you buy the game.

Or just wait for the release of the game and skip paying for the editor. The game comes with the full editor.

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Or just wait for the release of the game and skip paying for the editor.

Or not install a piece of software with SecuROM in it at all, no matter how 'cool' it seems.

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EA is evil.

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Don't get mad when you get half a game, only to be surprised by the announcement the day after spore is released :

EXPANSION ANNOUNCED! Spore:"The rest of the game" to be released Jan 22 2009!

Its already made. They will make money off it. Cha CHING from your wallet, not mine.

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Will some please answer this for me.

Do I have to buy the full creature creator or will it come with the game when it come out?

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As noted, you're basically paying twice. I guess you could look at it as paying a fee to get the use of it early, and ultimately it's the consumer's decision on whether or not to pay that fee or wait the extra 3 months. But it does seem an underhanded practice.

As a counterpoint to this practice, Obsidian released the NWN2 toolset for free 1 month before the game itself (if you had a pre-order code). You didn't have to pay extra for it, and it was the same toolset that came with the game.

And, of course, you apparently also get that lovely little malware package known as SecuROM 7 with the creature creator.

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Will some please answer this for me.Do I have to buy the full creature creator or will it come with the game when it come out?

It comes with the game.

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Thank you for clearing that up for me.

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Actually, you don't pay for it twice. Look at EA's store and you will see that if you purchase the Creature Creator, they give you a code that gives you the price you paid for the creature creator off the price of spore. So in the nd, you pay the same for the Creature Crator and the game whether you buy it all at release or buy the CC in advance!!

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Darn, they should have to tell you if it has Securom. I torrent'd it. (day before second release), but since it has Securom... Bye bye.

Securom's a frikkin' plague. It never worked for disk protection on my laptop, either, instead opting for the no-go option. So I could install, but not play my games. Big brainy success, Suckurom.

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Or not install a piece of software with SecuROM in it at all, no matter how 'cool' it seems.

Or just stop invading every single thread related to Spore to pathetically whine about DRM instead of talking about the actual game. See the thread started by Multianna to share pictures of creatures that took all of two posts to get one of your ilk in there moaning about the evils of DRM.

Why don't you guys set up your own topic devoted to hating EA and acting self-righteous about how you'll never buy a game with DRM on it? That'd be great, thanks.

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The whining about Securom is getting very tiresome. Yes, DRM is a pain, but the fact is so long as it's transparent, if the product is worth it, I will tolerate it.

Starforce caused damage to my system. Caused me to burn disks that wouldn't verify and I wound up tossing about $20 worth of media before realising what was going on. Assuming the story of the demo of the creature creator containing Securom is correct, I can still burn DVDs without hassle. More than can ever be said about Starforce.

The irony of folk whining about DRM is depending on your definition, requiring Impulse and a registered account to patch Gal Civ II pretty much fits my defintion of DRM. It's a bunch of hoops you have to jump through to prove you legally own something.

Same crap, different pile.

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The whining about Securom is getting very tiresome. Yes, DRM is a pain, but the fact is so long as it's transparent, if the product is worth it, I will tolerate it.Starforce caused damage to my system. Caused me to burn disks that wouldn't verify and I wound up tossing about $20 worth of media before realising what was going on. Assuming the story of the demo of the creature creator containing Securom is correct, I can still burn DVDs without hassle. More than can ever be said about Starforce.The irony of folk whining about DRM is depending on your definition, requiring Impulse and a registered account to patch Gal Civ II pretty much fits my defintion of DRM. It's a bunch of hoops you have to jump through to prove you legally own something. Same crap, different pile.

QFE its all DRM just with a different skin

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The whining about Securom is getting very tiresome. Yes, DRM is a pain, but the fact is so long as it's transparent, if the product is worth it, I will tolerate it.

Problem is, it's not transparent. I've been closely following the Mass Effect situation and so far no one can tell what, exactly, will cost you an activation. Some people have burned all 3 of their activations and can't figure out exactly why. EA won't tell anyone exactly what hardware changes will trigger an activation and they refuse to tell you how many you've burned or have left.

No one knows for sure if reinstalling your OS will trigger one, although EA says it will. Interestingly, someone said they'd installed on the same OS 4 times after reinstalling their OS (2 times on Vista and 2 times on XP) and didn't have to activate 4 times. However, upon experimenting further, when he installed the same version of Vista with a different product key, the game required activation and he had to phone EA. The gist of it was, somehow the DRM knows it was installed on a machine with a different Vista product key. Conclusion: it can read your product key somehow. Does that not send alarm bells off?

One guy has been locked out of his game for two weeks, fighting with EA to get another activation because he burned through his when trouble shooting the game as it didn't work right when he first installed it. Upon trying fire up the game again, he got a pop up telling him he'd burned his three activations and would have to buy another license. No link or suggestion that he could go to EA tech support to get another activation. That was how he found out about the limited activations. He finally got a new activation granted just today. But now he's going to have to go through all that again if he needs a new activation for some reason down the road. Waiting for two weeks to fire up a game you paid for and want to play now? Doesn't sound like an optimal deal to me.

This version of SecuROM has the ability to collect hardware and software information and pass it back to the activation/authentication server for 'marketing purposes', which EA can use and pass on to other companies. Sound good to you?

Ever sell your used games? Do you think once word of the way this DRM works (limited to 3 activations) becomes well known that anyone will take a chance and buy your used game from you? Do you think you'll be able to pass it on to a nephew or one of your kids?

The game was cracked within 48 hours of release. Granted, that crack had problems, but a fully working one was out within 3 days of that.

This DRM is in no way transparent and is doing nothing to stop piracy, which is the reason EA and BioWare give for its inclusion on the disc.

Starforce caused damage to my system. Caused me to burn disks that wouldn't verify and I wound up tossing about $20 worth of media before realising what was going on. Assuming the story of the demo of the creature creator containing Securom is correct, I can still burn DVDs without hassle. More than can ever be said about Starforce.The irony of folk whining about DRM is depending on your definition, requiring Impulse and a registered account to patch Gal Civ II pretty much fits my defintion of DRM. It's a bunch of hoops you have to jump through to prove you legally own something. Same crap, different pile.

Not the same. You can play the game you bought right out of the box without activating it. I have no problem with being required to register or activate your game to get patches or DLC. That's an incentive to buy a legimate game. But this DRM on MEPC gives you no incentive to buy a legit game when it's just a matter of time before your game will not run for you and you have to beg tech support to let you activate it again.

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The fact that publishers backed away from the evil that was starforce should show the consumers (AND CUSTOMERS!) that if we rally together against a common foe we CAN change the publishers behaviour towards us, and perhaps one day in the future more companies will behave like Stardock does, or even better run out of business. Publishers behave in many regards like RIAA and the rest of the recording industry, they view us with contempt and behave accordingly.

Customers should remember that; without us, the publishers are nothing. If we stop buying games from the EAs and Viviendis there will still be indie authors and others out there with innovative and fun games available without hassle, and cheaper, hell - they might even give them away for free..

Although when our war is won, and the publishers change their behaviour to avoid consequences for their deeds (and earn money again) it is a bit like metallica now, or war criminals who work in a nursery home, they are still just as evil and should not be forgiven for their actions..ever. Just like the recording industry should never be forgiven. After all, they declared war on their customers, and shall reap the fruits until they are no more.

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Coelocanth - Could you please give us a link to this persons finding? To create a software and/or hardware key depends on quite a few factors and did this person verify this multiple times or was it triggered by something else? I would find it hard to swallow that its reading the product key, it is probably working from some other key that the OS creates which is based in part from that product key. Since OS has a different key that key would of course be different. Assuming it is reading your key and sharing it with others is well...very tin foil hat why would EA want to know your key? Could it be creating a key from that, could be, is it sharing that key without your knowledge, doubt it.

I can not defend a company that takes your personal information and shares it with others without your permission, but come on now, this DRM shares your hardware info. Wow, lets see it does not take much for your browser to spill its beans on you and you don't know it. Now to go out on a limb and say "Oh noes it reads all your email, finds your ex's, and lowers your credit score.." would be a huge issue, but is this the case? It takes your hardware info..wow like Steam...and then what....men in black show up?

Can this DRM be an issue, yes it can be, but is it effecting everyone? How many times do you change hardware on a whim? Oh you do very often, then lets see, you know when this will happen so you could call before hand. If you plan your upgrades, you could plan a call to EA. Will it be bubble gum and rainbows, I doubt it, but what call to ANY company is like that? Would it suck if your hardware dies and you have burned up all your activations, yes but again if your hardware fails, your biggest concern is the game?

This type of DRM is not as bad as many others and to hope and pray or boycott has done what so far? EA publishes this game, Maxis created it. They want to protect there work, there solution was this behind the curtain is this DRM, but then look at Stardock. You have no protection, but to get updates you have register with them. It is not the same form of protection but a different type. If you look around you can see that yes even Stardock has a activation limit. Would it be nice if everone was like Stardock, yes, will it happen soon if ever, doubt it. If you love everything Stardock does well then good for you, but they do not have Spore and many others, so I have to take DRM to play.

I play games for FUN, this fun means for many publishers you get some form of protection, some not so bad - Stardock, some the spawn of Satan - Starforce. In the end you have do suffer something to play it, but it is just a game people! The comparisons to war criminals is uncalled for, what game have you ever installed/played that has killed anyone? Did the poor Mass Effect user have his life cut short, did he lose family members, what did he lose?

We do not like DRM, but it is everywhere, are you now going to boycott everything with DRM? You better look close and see what DRM and its ilk that you take every day but live with. In the end it is a game, society has accepted DRM, maybe one day it will go away or we just accept it, but if you want to play you have to pay. Is it fair, nope, but its NOT your game, it belongs to SOMEONE ELSE...read the EULA on other software you use.

If you want an invasion of your so called privacy, look around. Your grocery store, you have a discount card which they build a profile for ads and to be resold to others, your credit history is monitored by others and very often resold in some form or another, your car most probably has a "black box" that records certain events, and it goes on and on. If you want to rant on the lack of privacy I would hope you would have bigger issues than a game you buy.

PS - The creature creator rocks, it is great fun and I look forward to Spore. I wish that Sins had a ship creator, I mean look at the Sporepedia, almost 200K at this time and growing, imagine Sins with that diversity? Well back to the creator and Sins for more fun.

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We do not like DRM, but it is everywhere, are you now going to boycott everything with DRM?

As much as possible, yes.

Digital Restriction Management is hostile to customers.

And remember: books dont come with DRM, nor does a chair you can sit in, the sun shining down from the sky and the fresh air you breathe as you read it

Edit: not YET anyway.

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We do not like DRM, but it is everywhere, are you now going to boycott everything with DRM?

I made the mistake of leaving secuROM on my machine, BIG mistake. I plan on doing my research first, finding out what if any copy protection a game has.

Also, since we're on the topic of the tempest that is Spore Creature Creator...

Source: http://www.moreawesomethanyou.com/smf/index.php/topic,12208.0.html

For all those who are playing Creature Creator right now, please be aware that SecuROM is submitting your user-data to Sporepedia, not your E.A. account user name, but the user name you use to log in to your computer.

Potentially dangerous? Yes. Granted it is encrypted, but as we have seen lately, game companies know NOTHING about encryption, and neither does SecuROM. Not only that, you did NOT give permission to submit your computer user name through to Sporepedia.

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Coelocanth - Could you please give us a link to this persons finding?

Sure, right here:
WWW Link. The 4th post down by Sniper11 on page 4.

To create a software and/or hardware key depends on quite a few factors and did this person verify this multiple times or was it triggered by something else? I would find it hard to swallow that its reading the product key, it is probably working from some other key that the OS creates which is based in part from that product key. Since OS has a different key that key would of course be different.

Could be, indeed, and I'd be more than happy to find that's the case. Problem is EA isn't answering any specific questions about how this DRM works. So, as I stated above, it's not a transparent process. Invisible? Sure, but not transparent.

Assuming it is reading your key and sharing it with others is well...very tin foil hat why would EA want to know your key? Could it be creating a key from that, could be, is it sharing that key without your knowledge, doubt it.I can not defend a company that takes your personal information and shares it with others without your permission, but come on now, this DRM shares your hardware info. Wow, lets see it does not take much for your browser to spill its beans on you and you don't know it. Now to go out on a limb and say "Oh noes it reads all your email, finds your ex's, and lowers your credit score.." would be a huge issue, but is this the case? It takes your hardware info..wow like Steam...and then what....men in black show up?

No need to take things to the ridiculous. I don't believe I did that in my previous post.

Can this DRM be an issue, yes it can be, but is it effecting everyone? How many times do you change hardware on a whim? Oh you do very often, then lets see, you know when this will happen so you could call before hand.

I never change hardware 'on a whim', but I do change it fairly regularly. And do you seriously think EA is going to give you an activation back if you call them and say "I'm going to change some hardware soon, so can I just grab another activation right now?" I think it's far more likely they'll say "Wait until after. If you need it then, call back".

But the point here is: this shouldn't even be necessary. Why in hell should the consumer have to check with a bloody game company if they want to change their hardware? And how many times do you think EA is going to give you a new activation before they say "Sorry. Too many activations on this product key. Go buy another license"?

And Riftguy, who went through this process, had to wait almost two weeks before he got an activation back so he could play his game? I don't know about you, but if I'm loading a game onto my rig, I want to play it within a couple minutes, not hours or days.

If you plan your upgrades, you could plan a call to EA. Will it be bubble gum and rainbows, I doubt it, but what call to ANY company is like that? Would it suck if your hardware dies and you have burned up all your activations, yes but again if your hardware fails, your biggest concern is the game?

Again, why should someone have to do that for a game they've paid for? It makes zero sense whatsoever, especially when you consider the pirate's sitting back playing his game, changing his hardware, and reinstalling his game at will without having to ask anyone.

This type of DRM is not as bad as many others...

No. In many ways it's worse.

...and to hope and pray or boycott has done what so far?

Well, the big backlash before the release of the game got them to drop the recurring 10 day activation. Do you think that would have happened if people just bowed their heads and said "Oh, there's no use complaining. It won't change."?

EA publishes this game, Maxis created it. They want to protect there work, there solution was this behind the curtain is this DRM, but then look at Stardock. You have no protection, but to get updates you have register with them. It is not the same form of protection but a different type. If you look around you can see that yes even Stardock has a activation limit. Would it be nice if everone was like Stardock, yes, will it happen soon if ever, doubt it.

Yeah, and it's damned well never going to change if every gamer just throws their arms up in the air and say "Well, there's no use fighting it. Boycotting is useless. May as well just suck it up and buy the games".

Every single sale of a game with this type of copy protection is a consumer saying to the company "Hey, this DRM is totally acceptable". I think it's a far better thing to try to effect change than it is to sit back and declare there's no use fighting.

If you love everything Stardock does well then good for you, but they do not have Spore and many others, so I have to take DRM to play.I play games for FUN, this fun means for many publishers you get some form of protection, some not so bad - Stardock, some the spawn of Satan - Starforce. In the end you have do suffer something to play it, but it is just a game people!

Exactly. It's just a game. Therefore, I can do without it, and I can let the company know why I'm doing without their particular title even though it looks to be a helluva fun game.

The comparisons to war criminals is uncalled for, what game have you ever installed/played that has killed anyone? Did the poor Mass Effect user have his life cut short, did he lose family members, what did he lose?

Did I make a comparison to war criminals? I don't believe I did. At least, I can't find it in my previous posts. Feel free to point it out if you like though.

We do not like DRM, but it is everywhere, are you now going to boycott everything with DRM?

As much as possible, yes. Just for the sake of clarification, there's a difference between DRM and copy protection. The former includes the latter, but also severely restricts your use of the product and has no real benefit to the user. The rights being managed are not those of the publisher/creator, but those of the consumer. This is what I have issues with.

You better look close and see what DRM and its ilk that you take every day but live with. In the end it is a game, society has accepted DRM, maybe one day it will go away or we just accept it, but if you want to play you have to pay. Is it fair, nope, but its NOT your game, it belongs to SOMEONE ELSE...read the EULA on other software you use.

I wouldn't throw EULAs around as any kind of backup to an argument. They've been torn apart in court more than once, and any contract that you cannot agree to before opening the box (which cannot be returned after being opened) is invalid IMO (and in the opinion of many courts).

If you want an invasion of your so called privacy, look around. Your grocery store, you have a discount card which they build a profile for ads and to be resold to others, your credit history is monitored by others and very often resold in some form or another, your car most probably has a "black box" that records certain events, and it goes on and on. If you want to rant on the lack of privacy I would hope you would have bigger issues than a game you buy.

Much of that you can opt out of (info tracking from cards, etc.) I'm not naive enough to think anyone has complete privacy. Hell, that's not even the major issue from my perspective, although it contributes to the overall whole. My biggest gripe with this DRM is the limited activations. But I also look ahead and wonder: if every game starts using this type of DRM, how many e-mails and phone calls are going to be in everyone's future when they start trying to play their old games again? It will quickly come to the point where you're 'renting' the games you buy or they'll just become 'play a couple times and dispose of it'.

Sorry, but I don't want that. Therefore, I'm fighting against it. If it doesn't change. Well, at least I and others tried.

I have no issue with some forms of copy protection or even having to register to get patches and additional content. No big deal at all. But this particular form of it is unacceptable to me and many others.

PS - The creature creator rocks, it is great fun and I look forward to Spore. I wish that Sins had a ship creator, I mean look at the Sporepedia, almost 200K at this time and growing, imagine Sins with that diversity? Well back to the creator and Sins for more fun.

Hey, have fun. Enjoy. I don't wish you any ill. But I'm not going to be participating. Yeah, my choice. And guess what? I'm not really going to be missing out on much, as I have plenty of other ways to amuse myself.

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

Ever sell your used games? Do you think once word of the way this DRM works (limited to 3 activations) becomes well known that anyone will take a chance and buy your used game from you? Do you think you'll be able to pass it on to a nephew or one of your kids?

This right here is why they're putting limited activations on games. Resale and transfer are not generally among the rights purchased when you buy a game - some companies allow it, most don't. The legality of EULA has been upheld by several US court rulings, as long as 1)they warn you an EULA exists on the outside of the box; 2)that the EULA is not implied, you have to click "I agree" in order to install the software. Theoretically, there must be a mechanism for you to return the software for a full refund in the event you will not agree, but I've not yet seen that come up.

If word of this DRM prevents you from being able to sell your used games, it's working EXACTLY AS INTENDED.

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Coelocanth the war criminal statement was from instant, sorry I got the two posts mixed up. Now for the rest of the statements on the invasion of privacy from this form of DRM, I still await further technical analysis. We are on the internet and anyone can make statements that are untrue and it takes a bit more to make me start a crusade on the evil or good of a product.

In my house we have several PCs and we have had and still have games that have this form of DRM and many worse. Is hardware changed at whim, sometimes, but I am always prepared. Maybe it is because I have using computers for over 30 plus years that I am always prepared for some funkiness that programs and hardware will give you. I can understand the issue many have with this feeling of limitation, but this has always been the case. I live with those limitations and really have yet to feel the effects.

Now Coelocanth I can understand your stance, but EULAs do exist and the legality of them is still being debated. You can not just state that the EULA has no bearing on the DRM as it is stated in the EULA what you are getting. What I can say is your stance against DRM is very similar to the issues with WalMart. Now how well is that doing? Again it is all money driven, if you or anyone else can say you will get XXX more or less by removing or adding DRM, the vendors would listen. So can anyone out there say no DRM means more sales?

Unfortunately piracy exists. It will never go away, it has been around since the beginning and will be with us until the end. DRM is just one way the vendors are trying to use in their vain attempts to stop it. Does it suck that many have to resort to bypassing DRM and other protections, yep. Look at it this way, if Stardock changed its mind and said DRM all the way, would you drop Sins? What is more important to you a vendors stance on DRM or what the product is?

I go for the merits of the product. I have no loyalty to any vendor for anything. It is always about the product. Yes I have to live with the DRM, but I have the product and that is what is important to me and apparently many others. Mass Effect is a perfect example of this, somethings were changed but still with its DRM (which seems to be identical to Spore) it sells. Again I have say if this form of DRM is such a privacy issues, then it is time for people to look at what else is on your system. Can you really trust any of your software? Where do you draw the line, OS is ok, but a game is not? Hmm, the OS is always running and you just said no to this one or many games, but why have you not said no to your OS?

PS - I can easily answer that question for my case - What other OS is there that does what I want it to do? Come on Linux, OSX, etc let me enjoy my games and apps on your OS. Again those OSes also have privacy issues.

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