Arcean speed penalty » Forum Post by SunBloom

The strange thing is the arcean starting bonuses+penalties are such that you'd be better off just doing a custom race with arcean tech tree+bonuses (and picture

) anyway, since your starting abilities would be much better.

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Maybe I am not playing on the level you are, but I can usually turn around a small starting number of planets into a victory. I don't play Arceans (or haven't yet) but I have had some pretty rocky starts with only two or three planets that are even PQ4 inside my sphere of expansion and having to claw my way up from there.

My suggestion is, work on planetary invasion pretty early on. My recollection is that Arceans are pretty good soldiering so they should be able to take what they need. Beyond that, I am thinking that this was meant to be one of the race challenges to offset some of the other stuff they get.

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I won't even touch Arcean's unless I give them the +1 speed bonus. Hate wasting the points, but they are worth it.

Plus add one to creativity, put 1 research into their navigation centers, hopefully within a couple of turns you'll get another +1 speed bonus, hell, once in the first ten turns I received + 2 speed bonuses because i creativity popped them both!

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I did something similar to Tototot. The one game I played as the Arceans in TotA, I gave them a +1 to speed and creativity, skipped colonizing any planets whatsoever, and immediately started researching engine and invasion techs. Knock out a homeworld or two of the AI's and you dont have to bother colonizing at all.

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DivineWrath

Join Date 05/2006

+129

You could read the guide I wrote for players trying to figure out how to play the different civs.

TA 101

I hope you find it useful.

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Tototo / Piznit: Overwriting an intended faction weakness seems a little bit munchkin to me. And using the creativity perk is definitely munchkin, at least in this version of the game. Who knows, maybe I should do these things just to balance things out.

DivineWrath: I did read that. It's a sticky thread, kind of hard to miss. You don't cover the early phase, you just go over the various unique techs the Arceans have. There's also one thing you missed worth editing in: the Lite Construction Module does not appear on the default Arcean constructor. A player will have to custom build their own constructor with said module to get the benefit of cheapo constructors.

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I find that the Arceans are best suited to turtling. Buildings that increase your soldiering abilities, space cannons (which also improve morale), and weather control all do wonders in that regard.

One thing you might want to try bartering for are Ion Engines and Impulse Drive. Ion engines are small and cheap, which is a big advantage in ship building, and the impulse drives (which you can't normally research) negate your disadvantage.

There's no getting around it, though, the Arceans are slow. You basically have to rely instead on just being incredibly stubborn. The Arceans don't die easily, and once they start rolling they are very difficult to counter.

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I really don't like playing with the -1 speed penalty, and as has been previously said, a custom race is just superior.

In order to try out the Arcean tech tree, I paired it with a custom Super Isolationist race; it's a perfect match.

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Tototo / Piznit: Overwriting an intended faction weakness seems a little bit munchkin to me. And using the creativity perk is definitely munchkin, at least in this version of the game. Who knows, maybe I should do these things just to balance things out.

I'm not sure what "munchkin" means, I'm assuming it means cheesy. Although I don't see how overwriting an intended faction weakness is "munchkin". Your still penalized either way you look at it. The Arceans have to waste 5 points just to equal the others in speed (sounds like a penalty to me). Adding speed bonuses was put into the game to be USED Also, the other races can choose it as well, so the Arceans would still be slower than the opponents. I suppose you wouldn't use population growth with those races who have penalties in that category either, because that would be rather "Lilaputian", a close relative to munchkins. Hell, I think we should all put points in ship repair and loyality every game, because markedly increasing your economy and morale with bonus points seems pretty "Oompa Loompa" to me (another relative).

Now the creativity might seem more broken to some, and possibly I just haven't seen it really shine, but in all the games I've had creativity checked, its really only kicked in maybe 5 times MAX in a game. Whoopity-do, 5 techs a few turns early across the entire span of playing...real game breaker there. Now I know, I know. "But you can lower spending and put your slider at 1% research and have creativity finish something that would have otherwise taken 2543 turns." Yeah, you could that, but your not forced to. And if you did, I think you'd be suprised to find its not all that great of a strategy.

Anyhow, in your original post, you explained a few problems you had encountered as playing the Arceans, and felt as though you were cavemen, not Klingons. The above suggestions were simply ways to help alleviate your Cro-Magnum feelings of inadequacy. If they make you feel "munchkin", next time I will respond with the more standard (albeit, less helpful) suggestions: Play another race. Or, for slightly more humor, I could offer you the suggestion: Play the crappy Iconians, then the Arceans won't seem so bad. Who knows? Maybe you'll like those suggestions better.

+2

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I'm not sure what "munchkin" means, I'm assuming it means cheesy. Although I don't see how overwriting an intended faction weakness is "munchkin". Your still penalized either way you look at it. The Arceans have to waste 5 points just to equal the others in speed (sounds like a penalty to me). Adding speed bonuses was put into the game to be USED Also, the other races can choose it as well, so the Arceans would still be slower than the opponents. I suppose you wouldn't use population growth with those races who have penalties in that category either, because that would be rather "Lilaputian", a close relative to munchkins. Hell, I think we should all put points in ship repair and loyality every game, because markedly increasing your economy and morale with bonus points seems pretty "Oompa Loompa" to me (another relative).

What's the purpose of this wall of text? Oh, you're trying to be witty.

Now the creativity might seem more broken to some, and possibly I just haven't seen it really shine, but in all the games I've had creativity checked, its really only kicked in maybe 5 times MAX in a game. Whoopity-do, 5 techs a few turns early across the entire span of playing...real game breaker there. Now I know, I know.

Really. What map size are you usually playing on? I've had the War Rooms creativity bonus kick in about four times playing a game on Large. Just figured the same thing multiplied by 2.5 for a single starting point would get ridiculous.

Anyhow, in your original post, you explained a few problems you had encountered as playing the Arceans, and felt as though you were cavemen, not Klingons. The above suggestions were simply ways to help alleviate your Cro-Magnum feelings of inadequacy. If they make you feel "munchkin", next time I will respond with the more standard (albeit, less helpful) suggestions: Play another race. Or, for slightly more humor, I could offer you the suggestion: Play the crappy Iconians, then the Arceans won't seem so bad. Who knows? Maybe you'll like those suggestions better.

You could also not respond at all. That would be pretty cool too.

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It shouldn't kick in an extra times depending on the map size, unless your factoring in the higher cost of research slowing the game down. If you finish a gigantic game in 3 years, and you finish a tiny map game in 3 years, the probability of creativity functioning should be the same, as far as I know.

What's the purpose of this wall of text?

You could also not respond at all. That would be pretty cool too.

Well, my original purpose was to shed light on the problem, perhaps even offer a solution you might not have thought of. Seeing as you started the thread, if I have my concept of what a forum is intended for, people respond to your post and a discussion occurs. Now I know that sounds crazy, but thats usually how it works. After your 2nd response, I was continuing the discussion, and its true, being a little more witty (thank you for noticing, I appreciate it!)

If I didn't respond at all, that wouldn't be much of a discussion now would it? The majority of the time when someone throws up a post and they are frustrated over something, they are looking for answer of some sort. In the future, I will try to remember not to bother you with replies of any sort. But, I'm kinda dumb, and not very cool, so I tend to forgot...

Good luck with games!!

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It's fine, that last response just seemed like you were pouring it on a bit thick. Someone with 100+ metaverse games is obviously going to know more about the game than I do.

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DivineWrath

Join Date 05/2006

+129

DivineWrath: I did read that. It's a sticky thread, kind of hard to miss. You don't cover the early phase, you just go over the various unique techs the Arceans have.

Based upon what you said, I got the impression that you didn't read the guide. As such, I posted a link to it.

As for my guide, it was never intended to be a complete strategy guide. It was supposed to help those who knew how to play DA to figure out TA quickly. Thats kind of why I covered the unique techs and stuff. That said, I may add something more to the strategy section of the Arceans.

Let me think...
-The navigation centers tech cost 250 research, and provides a +1 parsec speed bonus civ wide, and a planet structure that can provide a +1 parsec speed bonus to all ships built there.
-Subspace drive costs 400 research, and it provides a +1 parsec speed bonus civ wide...
-Both researching both techs should make you faster than any other civ until they using and researching bigger engines. Since the costs are similiar, if you are able to research one, you should be able to research the other.

There's also one thing you missed worth editing in: the Lite Construction Module does not appear on the default Arcean constructor. A player will have to custom build their own constructor with said module to get the benefit of cheapo constructors.

Oops! I'll go make the changes with my next update.

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I explore mostly with colony ships anyway. I have yet to try the Arcean. We'll see. I do enjoy extorting their navigation and propulsion technologies from them.

Creativity rarely kicks in and thus justifies the +1 cost. However, saving 10+ turns in the early game is a huge boost especially when playing for early victory

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The Arcean speed penalty is easily compensated for with a couple of easy researches and they are actually faster than standard races. Look through their tech tree. The AI is just unable to handle it and needs a massive overhaul.

Propulsion should be a priority in the beginning anyway and among the first techs researched. Otherwise you'll be just like the AI, spinning around in their little corner.

What is strange though is the custom race is much better. This is not the case for other races. +2 Logistics must just be worth a lot in Stardock's mind

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The Arcean speed penalty is easily compensated for with a couple of easy researches and they are actually faster than standard races.

Passively faster yes. With engines they will still get blown away by the Alterians and Terrans.

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The Arcean speed penalty is easily compensated for with a couple of easy researches and they are actually faster than standard races.

Navigation centers are great, but those don't kick in until after the early expansion phase. If you're saying I should put my colony ship construction on hold and research those things before I build any colony ships, you're out of your mind.

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The Arcean speed penalty is easily compensated for with a couple of easy researches and they are actually faster than standard races.Passively faster yes. With engines they will still get blown away by the Alterians and Terrans.

I hardly care about competing with the Terrans. If you want to play the fastest race in the game then play the fastest race. Arceans are already faster than the majority through much of the game, with engines. Taking into consideration the research bug and that there is no multiplayer.

Navigation centers are great, but those don't kick in until after the early expansion phase. If you're saying I should put my colony ship construction on hold and research those things before I build any colony ships, you're out of your mind.

Then that is the problem right there. How quickly are those first ships going to build. How will your precious yearned for eventual flood of slow ships going to compete with the AI flood of fast ships? Especially when you waste time building 1 move scout ships. The research spent of 5-8 turns in the beginning depending on picks is more than made up for by the +speed very soon. And this coming from me who likes to roll with +50 Mil. With a single research you have matched speeds with your opponents and negated the propulsion disadvantage. Don't want to research expensive propulsion right away, too bad, you're playing the Arceans, not the Terrans and not even the Drengins. The +speed benefits your survey ships too. I play on Tough and win easily. While I am aware there are many higher difficulty levels as no doubt you are as well, Tough > Challenging.

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Regardless, this situation is moot with the horrendous tech bug. Time for a break from TA. I've been in enough games conquering 2/3rd of the galaxy and having the tech grind to a halt; I would like to eventually see capital ships someday. Without playing Gigantic maps and taking an even longer time to absorb all the planets. Even worse when it happens before I militarize

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gigolojones: Thanks for the input. It was the answer I was looking for. I messed around with making a grab for Interstellar Navigation right off the bat and it does seem to work okay if executed properly. Do you colonize Hammer at the start of the game or send the colony ship out? I'm finding that a colony on Hammer helps speed up research. A lab on a 300% or 700% research tile make the the research go even faster, but otherwise I'm better off not building any.

+50 military spending sounds unwieldy, though. I tried that a while ago and noticed that social spending spill-over to military doesn't increase at all from the bonus. I only got extra military production when government spending across all planets was focused on military. I don't know if that's a bug or what.

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Screw the Arceans and their speed penalty. I offered them Impulse III & Fleet Warp bubbles II, and they still refused to trade Extended Life Support. They want to go slow? Let 'em go slow. They're in range, so I won't be needing Ext. Life Support to grind their colonies to dust anyway.

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The Arceans seem [edit]fundamentally misdesigned. Usually, you can't make a custom race that has all the same bonus abilities as one of the stock races. With the Arceans, you can come pretty close. In fact, a custom race that spends its bonus points to mimic the Arceans as closely as possible is actually better than the Arceans in most ways. Consider:

Arceans:
+20 Hit Points (free, normally 2 points)
+10 Soldiering (free, normally 1 point)
+8 Logistics (free, cannot be bought)
-1 Speed (free, negating this penalty costs 5 points)
10 bonus points

Custom Race
+20 Hit Points (2 points)
+10 Hit Points (1 point)
+6 Logistics (free, cannot be bought)
12 remaining bonus points.

So, the custom race loses 2 points of Logistics for +1 Speed *AND* 2 bonus points. 7 bonus points for just +2 Logistics seems pretty steep to me, and that price point would just make the Arceans *EQUAL* a custom race. Compare some of the other races:

Terrans
+10 Speed (free, normally 5 points)
-10 Military Production (free, negating this penalty costs 1 point)
+30 Diplomacy (free, normally 5 points)
+1 Trade Route (free, normally 3 points)
+6 Logistics (free, cannot be bought)
10 bonus points

So, the Terrans get 13 points of abilities, less a penalty that costs 1 point to offset, for a net of 12. A custom race trying to mimic the Terrans would thus only have 3 bonus points left to spend. Plainly, you just cannot mimic the Terrans as a Custom Race and come anywhere near matching their abilities. The same holds true for most of the races - except for the Arceans.

I get that the race bonus points/super ability/tech tree combos are balanced as packages, but it seems like the Arceans have had almost all their value shuffled into the super ability and tech tree - and neither one actually seems good enough to justify their terrible bonuses. It seems like it's breaking either the custom race option or the Arcean race. If I'm just missing something, and the Arcean super ability and tech tree really *ARE* that awesome (and my total lack of metaverse badges should show that there's a lot I've missed in this game), then maybe the custom race option should be modified with more total points, but with each tech tree and super ability costing points to use, so a custom race of faux-Arceans wouldn't show up the real thing quite so badly.

[edit]I also get that bonuses you purchase just aren't as good as racial inherent bonuses, because racially inherent bonuses can be combined with purchased bonuses. Plus, some inherent bonuses are just bigger than anything you can purchase, like the Altarian +25 research bonus, when the most you can buy is +20. So I recognize that the real Arceans will be able to specialize more heavily in Soldiering and Hit Points than the custom race faux-Arceans. I just don't think that the advantage is anywhere near big enough to justify the terrible lack of bonuses the Arceans get. This is especially true when you consider that an inherent penalty is also worse than the cost to redeem it, because not only does it cost 5 bonus points to negate the Arcean speed penalty, but it also makes it impossible for them to actually get an effective +2 speed bonus.

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Ynglaur

Join Date 05/2006

+11

You can research Sensors to make up for the poor speed, at least for exploration purposes. A ship with Speed 3 and Sensor Range 3 traveling in a straight line can discover 21 new squares per turn. A ship with Speed 2 and Sensor Range 4 traveling in a straight line can discover 18 new squares per turn. It's not as good, but it helps.

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The Iconian and Thalan are pretty glaring in how much better a custom race using their tech tree is. Arugably, the Drengin are in the same boat (particularly since you can choose a better super ability). I think that Custom races are impossible to perfectly balance with such diverse tech trees and are probably the strongest option in Twilight (possible exceptions: Altarians, for the research bonus as you mentioned, and Terrans, who can dominate with focused diplomacy).

I don't think this means Stardock did a poor job designing the races. I think they are balanced quite well on the whole. With any system of this complexity there are however going to be cracks if you also allow customization (think what Starcraft would be like if players could tweak their race before each game?). In this instance, choosing one of the best tech trees and one of the best super abilities while avoiding the lack of starting bonuses these races were given to balance them is going to yield a much stronger race. Twilight isn't even competitive for metaverse purposes anyway, so I don't think this narrow lack of balance is going to have a negative effect on much.

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I think my problem with the Arceans is that I just don't see them as having one of the best tech trees, or having one of the best super abilities. Oddly, I never noticed how terrible the Thalan bonuses are - about 6 points of bonuses, and about 10 points of penalties, and only 8 bonus points - and I play Thalans all the time. My issue with Thalans has always been their broken tech tree - defenseless starbases FTL.

What is it about a tech tree with absolutely no engine techs that seems good? Yes, their navigation techs compensate, but as soon as you get up to +2 speed engines, you've compensated for the Arcean navigation techs, and it only goes downhill from there. I like mobility, so I gave up on Arceans long ago. It may be personal idiosyncracy, but that's just how I play.

[edit] I just checked the Iconians, and they're not nearly as badly off. If that +100 Espionage were replaced with something. . . useful. . . they'd actually be good. +20 morale is sweet, and +100 Espionage is more than three times as high as the best buyable espionage bonus, which admittedly only costs 2 points. That's still about 6 points for the espionage, and 3 for the Morale, plus 7 bonus points, so they are at least arguably not getting ripped off. Plus, they start with 10 logistics, which seems to be more than anybody else in the game. On the whole, it looks like they get *ENOUGH* bonuses, it's just that they're not terribly useful bonuses. I'm more willing to forgive that situation than the situation of the Arceans and Thalans, who just didn't actually get much of anything to compensate for their fairly brutal penalties.

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