I don't think there'd really be any problem with uber powerfull starbases, just like castles, walls, forts in the past. Just go around them.

The only problem is for resource bases, you get a bonus even though you might not control the area. The solution is to make resource bases have to ship the bonus back to a local planet. If you can't defend that supply line, you don't get the bonus.

The biggest problem with the current setup is that is not worth using, and that the AIs are not programmed to not use it... So something should be done here. To me, the easy way to go is make them stronger, and auto-upgrade. That would surely help the AIs.

Well, I agree that the actual combat modules for a starbase are not cost efficient. However that is true of many many options in this game. Morale buildings, trade routes, espionage, etc. all feel like they should be integral parts of a strategy, but are all underpowered and overcosted and best left ignored when playing for max efficiency.

IMO its the AIs mistake to even be attacking the things. I haven't lost a starbase in, I'd say somewhere between my last 30 to 50 games. You should never be in a position where they get attacked. Conversely, if a starbase has even more than about a +40 to its attack I just go around them. You can't put enough in a sector to even block an attack to one planet, forget about stopping a dedicated fleet. It would be the Maginot Line all over again... Look at my +100/+100/+100 starbase your fleets are flying around to get to my planet. I rockz!

That is the base reason I don't think combat modules will ever be the equal of mobile ships... you can't ever attack. Indeed, I hope when Brad reworks the AI for TA he includes giving the AI the tactical decision trees to just ignore unimportant, over defended starbases. Seeing as they are doomed to be worthless no matter how strong they are, why get worked up over it?

Stardock intends for a lot of stuff to work, and sometimes it only really ends up being viable on the Tough/Painfull or below threshhold. Look, if you REALLY want to make a super starbase, it is much quicker to get to the top of the starbase fortification line than it is to get to the top of any other weapons tree. Starbase fort III offers 6 upgrades that will easily last you into mid game.

But you should never build them. You shouldn't build fusion power plants either. To each their own.

~ Wyndstar

That's what I said, and that's why Starbases need help. For example, you could give military starbases an upgrade that lets them 'fire' hyperdrive-equipped torpedoes through space. They travel 1pc/week and have a little bit of guidance capability, and attack anything that comes within the sensor range of the starbase. They could have 5pc range, for example, and only be able to steer 45degrees. So a fast-moving ship could easily avoid the torpedoes, but a starbase with a warp destabilizer would require a concentrated push with expected casualties to knock out the starbase itself.

In other words, starbases need things that give them a way to proactively attack somehow. They shouldn't be able to, and I'm not even IMPLYING, that they should eb able to float off like enormous battleships and devastate the universe. They should, however, have some sort of weaponizing effect with range.

Starbases really have nothing going for them in terms of military use.

I think this fact alone, if properly addressed could do wonders for the game.

If you look at Magic the gathering, they have walls. Generally they suck, for the same reasons. (they can't attack)

However, they are cheap, and are effective at slowing down attacks.

To me that's exactly what military starbases should be. They should be orders of magnitude cheaper, and more powerfull. Then they could actually be useful. Right now unless you are playing a tiny map with slow research, they are just pointless. (and again, the AI doesn't understand this)

Couple points here: Yes, ships have to have engines, which take up room that starbases can use for weaponry. However, how much room is devoted to the funtional parts of the base: the mining modules, the trade centers, the ship-assist modules?

And if a starbase is a city to a warship's tank, does that analogy continue beyond size? A tank can be armored pretty heavily, while a city would be pretty difficult to protect at the same level. Even if you could protect a city at that level, how much funtionality would you be giving up to do that? Would it even be possible to function as a city under such such design constraints?

Overall, I think I agree with Wyndstar. The game has several built-in sub-optimal choices simply to allow players to make mistakes on the off chance that occasionally these choices are useful (yes, occasionally a planet has enough manufacturing bonuses to make a fusion plant viable. It's rare but it does happen.) Simply rebuilding the starbase would almost always be more efficient than spending the constructors to fortify it to the extent necessary to survive any real attack anyway.

I agree. Let the SB reach out and "touch someone". It is a crying shame they are so nerfed. Long range missiles and localized fighters should be standard options as well as as well as increasing ranges for the area effects in general. SB should be feared and not "walked around" or attacked only if bored.

Eh. It's something at least.

Thank you for explicitly stating my objection for me, then. If starbases were armed and armored on anything like the scale your new analogy would suggest, they would be completely indestructable once built. No possible fleet, even of ultimate weapon huge hulls, would be able to destroy such a starbase. Exactly how many tank shells would be needed to sink the Bismark?

IMO maybe a doubling of the current weapons/defenses and 3x the hit points may be justified, certainly no more. Still ultimately pointless, but not game-wrecking. Also, AI capability would need to be tweaked, as it doesn't generally build the all-offense ships which would be needed to breach the defenses of one of these monstrosities. Without such an adjustment, this type of starbase would become a player-favoring exploit, as the player can find a way to combat it, and the AI can't.

2. One of the problems that starbases face when it comes to upgradeability is, the starbase fortification techs can progress independantly of ship weapons and defenses. To make them much more powerful could result in players getting starbases appropiate to end-game during mid-game or in rare cases, early game.

Possible solutions to this problem has already been posted. Having starbases reflect your current ship techs, automatically getting better weapons, defenses and miniturization as you get them available works. However, the other posted, where you could design your own starbases would work too. Having to balance role specific modules with starbase defenses would result in having no one to blame but the player if the starbase couldn't take a hit (assuming that they could be built powerful enough).

I don't agree with you on the above, and here's why. I don't see end game starbases in the early game as a problem. The player had to put a lot of research and build tons of contructors to get those starbases. That took a lot of resources that didn't get spent elsewhere...like on fleets or planet improvements. So it's a trade off. It's also not all that off balancing as it's the holding of planets that wins or loses the game, not starbases. It actually works out the same as when a player pumps all their resources into getting the end game weapon/defense techs and ship hulls. At least, that's how I see it.

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So, how about a couple of larger hull templates for Military
Starbases? (medium, large)

You could mod up to your hearts delight?

Thankx,

Prof.

  

Any analogy will break down if taken too far. In this case, the Bismark may not attack me directly, but it supports surrounding warships, or boosts economy/influence, or occupies a resource I may want to take - or at least deny to the enemy.

Starbase defenses are usually a waste, but that doesn't prevent the AI from building them. I'd prefer not to give them the firepower to make their bases unkillable.

How's this as a possible compromise? No additional firepower or defenses, just massive HP increases. Bump the starting HP up to 200, then the 3 fortification techs double the available HP, so a maxed base would have 1600 HP. The base could still be taken out by concentrated efforts, but the battles would take enough rounds to give the base a chance to do significant damage in return. There is already a repair module, so a maxed out fully supported starbase could still stand swarms of smaller ships over several turns but could be destroyed by high-powered large hulls.

Hmm...I must be typing in invisible ink.