Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

Unique tech trees reveal closet anarchists among major factions?

I posted something related to this earlier when I thought it was just a Yor thing, but if I'm scanning the XML files correctly for the Beta released on 12/14, the only cultures that can do anything to improve overall efficiency (adopt an advanced governance technology) are the Drath, the Korx, the Krynn, the Torians, the Terrans, and, most fascinatingly, the Korath.

I can read this situation at least two ways. First, cultures like the Iconians and the Yor are "anarchists." They have no government to improve. Second, this is still a beta thing and we have yet to see new items added in the unique trees after Alliances for some cultures like the Iconians.

I'm hoping the second reading is closer to being accurate. I can see how the notion of a Star Federation makes no sense for Yor or Thalans. But shouldn't advanced Yor have improved command and control protocals and advanced Thalans' hive queens produce more effective pheromones?

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I really like the idea of the Yor being able to build advanced C3-type super projects that approximate the effects of the meatbags' advanced governments.

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You have to remember the default government is imperial, not anarchal.

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DivineWrath

Join Date 05/2006

+135

I can read this situation at least two ways. First, cultures like the Iconians and the Yor are "anarchists."

They seem more like communists. It is even said somewhere is that the Iconians are the closest thing to a communist in nature in the GalCiv universe.

The Iconians are a race nearly destroyed by the Yor. Inaddition, they evolved in close proximitry to the Arnor, a species that had some individuals that not only could live without sustaince, but found sitting in a spot for centeries watching how the land around them erode fasinating. As such, one would expect that the concept of capitalism is a bit foriegn to the Icononians.

As for the Yor, they're machines. They can be built in such a way to better serve the collective, with each generation being possible better than the last. Their desire is to exterminate all organic life was implanted into them when the Dread Lords made them sentient. Its likely that the act of trying to do anything other than trying to complete their collective goal would be considered wasteful.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

I confess I was being a bit feisty with the word anarchists, but I did use shudder quotes at least.

My real point is that I would like to see more beta testers speak up if they agree that all the civilizations should have a research path like the Terran governments.

At the very least, I'm curious to see a justification for the *Korath* having advanced governments while the Drengin do not. Aren't the Korath basically Drengin with a bad attitude?

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I'm going to go out on a limb here... but personally, I think the DA government system lacks dramatic impact on the game. It certainly has some interesting aspects with the senate and popular votes. But overall it seems to lack the impact on the game that I thought it would. I just don't mind playing with the imperial govt all game and not thinking twice. I don't feel the need to rush to the star democracy and federation techs.

So...
1. As currently stands, I don't mind some races not having govt tech options.
2. I do agree the Korath choices are silly
3. I compare the govt techs to the ethics choices. Its a nice (not great) aspect of the game, but there is a lot of untapped potential. Hopefully they expand both.

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I agree that government techs should correspond to alignment and the general motivations of the race in question. Democratic Korath are a ridiculous notion. Good alignments tend to be at a disadvantage anyway, so linking the government options to ethics sounds like a great idea.

As for the government system having a dramatic input. I tend to go for star democracy early so that I can drop the political capital on my starting world and net the 50% morale boost. That doesn't mean that those techs are particularly worthwhile, but it does illustrate at least one potential use.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

I think the DA government system lacks dramatic impact on the game.

I agree with this in terms of interactive value--there pretty much isn't any, given the way the parliament votes are purely passive and the UP doesn't give a hoot about your internal politics.

But my overall strategy has so far depended on a fairly quick migration to "higher" governments because each level comes with very valuable additions to your basic stats for econ & diplomacy. That's what I want to keep regardless of what culture I play in TA.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

Brad's big overview of TA reminded me about the tech tree editor. It looks like folks with my gripe should be able to create techs to "finish" the branch after Alliances for civilizations like the Iconians.

But realizing that gives me a brand new question: Does anyone know whether adding (or modifying) techs will get you a cheat flag in the Metaverse? My tentative guess is "Yes," but maybe there's something about the new Tournament stuff that can enable a workaround.

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But realizing that gives me a brand new question: Does anyone know whether adding (or modifying) techs will get you a cheat flag in the Metaverse? My tentative guess is "Yes," but maybe there's something about the new Tournament stuff that can enable a workaround.

It'd be the same as with any modding. AFAIK the tourny maps are just scenarios, which may allow disabling of techs, and setting extra start techs, but no modification of the actual trees.

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You could trade to get the other government techs from other races.

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Yeah, I've ended up trading for advanced governments when playing anyone who doesn't have them.

It would be kind of cool if there were advanced government styles for all races, but then you could end up with Terrans using a "Collective" style government, or just make (or certain types) untradeable.

Anyway, I think - for example - allowing Yor to progress from Imperium to Collective (which would have improved morale and production, instead of economics. Perhaps the Iconians might evolve into a technocracy with +research, etc?

I guess the big thing is implementing the drawback. For the existing governments, it's elections. You could justify elections for just about any government style - the evolving Collective develops more perspective frameworks, or whatever - or just make them a bit weaker and skip elections entirely?

I don't know if this is a great idea, but it'd add a bit more flavor to the races, and perhaps shore things like Yor morale up. Of course, it could also make the whole system a mess.

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The best idea, is a SMAC/Civ4 like government system, with bonuses for certain races if the run certain "civics" and have different tech requirements.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

You could trade to get the other government techs from other races.

It would be kind of cool if there were advanced government styles for all races, but then you could end up with Terrans using a "Collective" style government, or just make (or certain types) untradeable.

I'd rather see civ-specific forms of "government" that can't be traded. The shudder quotes are for civs wehre gov't might make no sense at all, e.g. the Thalans or Yor, but the basic idea of a tech to improve empire-wide efficiency still makes some sense (better pheromones for Thalans, better comm protocols for Yor). At least if you buy into some form of maximizing-progressive-evolutionist type of world view.

Mind you, I've barely skimmed Brad's preview of the new Thalan tech tree, and I can already tell that I've been building a way different story for them than the "official" version will turn out to be. Not that I haven't read some SF where pheromone-type systems were important to an off-planet society...

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The best idea, is a SMAC/Civ4 like government system

Totally agree. That's by far the best government system I've seen and balancing the bonuses and penalties of the different areas of civics adds a lot of depth. I wouldn't mind seeing something like Civ4's vassal states either. Slave races, perhaps? It would be a viable alternative to surrendering, which results in total destruction whether they surrender to the enemy or a third party.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

Well, I've started my first TA as the Thalans, and surprise, they have the gov't forms on their tech tree. They have the standard names, but the pop-ups don't mention an overall econ bonus and IIRC in DL and DA you increased revenue when you moved to "higher" gov't.

@Master of all & rls669, I haven't done Civ4 yet b/c it had such a rep as an outrageous resource hog when it came out and this game has been holding all my playtime attention since I got a box that might run Civ4 OK. But I spawned many a 4X junkie by showing them the original Civ back in the day.

I think I basically agree with y'all, although I probably want to have my cake and eat it too. Why not have 12 distinct variations to "government" with Civ as a model and SF as inspiration?

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Civ4 is right now probably less demanding that GlaCiv2 Dark Avatar

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

Civ4 is right now probably less demanding that GlaCiv2 Dark Avatar

I suspect that this is a bit of a judgement call, at least from the reports I got from friend who tried Civ4 back when we had roughly similar rigs.

Or did my friend just never discover that Civ4 has the low-graphics options that made DA run OK for me on my clunky old XP box?

I could be suffering from Stardock boosterism, but I don't recall any other 4x game family that had such solid respect for "legacy hardware" owners.

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Civ4 is right now probably less demanding that GlaCiv2 Dark Avatar

I can't really believe that. Civ4 is horribly clunky to the point where even I can have some problems, at higher settings. GalCiv2, however, have always remained without a single hiccup, on any setting, and have comparable graphics (although not nearly as much of them).

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Civ4 is right now probably less demanding that GlaCiv2 Dark Avatar

Who the hell called that game the 2005 game of the year?
Sid Meier and Firaxis should learn that Galciv 2 will always be better than any Civilization game. Sid Meier should stop making those crappy Civilization games because Civ 4 has a crap load of glitches and errors, research takes forever, the graphcs suck, modding is almost impossible, to many units to select, the units always have the same voices and no interseller warfare!

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