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Metaverse League Round 4

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Neilo
FireBender
Join Date 10/2006
+7
Reply #226 December 1, 2007 3:40:37 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Something not mentioned in the rulebook and worth mentioning: Is a substitute game elligible to recieve bonus points?
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Neilo
Mumblefratz
Join Date 07/2006
+139
Reply #227 December 1, 2007 4:40:01 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Something not mentioned in the rulebook and worth mentioning: Is a substitute game elligible to recieve bonus points?

I would have to consider that an authorized substitute game is a legitimate game and worthy of bonus but that defeats or wins of the incorrect type are not.

Also in regards to unbroken ties I had kind of assumed it was understood how to deal with these in cases of large numbers, basically because it's sort of awkward to explain, but this is how that should go.

Let's say we're looking for the top 4 for bonus. Let's say that 2 people tied for the 1st place time and 3 people tied for the 2nd place time and 3 people tied for the 3rd place time. In this case 2 people tied for first place. However the 3 people with the 2nd place time did not tie for 2nd place they actually tied for 3rd place because all of them have two people ahead of them. In the same way the 3 people that tied with the third place time actually tied for 6th because there are 5 people with better scores. In this case we would award bonus points for only the top 2 times and give bonus to a total of 5 people. This is very standard but you see what I mean about awkward to explain.

Basically you take the number of top placements until you have at least the number of bonus points that you wish to award and then everyone that tied at that level or above gets points. In the case of four bonus points if four or more people tied in first place then only those people would get bonus, however if there are only three 1st place times then you need to add the 2nd place time to get to four bonuses and so everyone that tied with the second place time would also get bonus even though they technically would be tied for 4th *not* second. Is this clear?

[edit] This is how it works in money tournaments like golf. In golf they break the tie for 1st place but any ties at lower levels are left as is. So assume there are two people tied for 2nd. Clearly those two people together should get the money for both 2nd and 3rd place. So what they do is add the money for 2nd and 3rd place and then split that between the two players. The next folks on the list would be 4th and below and if tied they would do the same thing. However anyone tied at some level is only tied for the level below the total number of people above him. [/edit]
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Neilo
Silverbeacher
Join Date 09/2006
+35
Reply #228 December 1, 2007 12:17:57 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
We actually have had this happen in this round, and once the scores are considered official we will highlight that point.
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Neilo
dystopic
Join Date 10/2005
+41
Reply #229 December 1, 2007 12:22:13 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
i'm quivering in anticipation  
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Neilo
Silverbeacher
Join Date 09/2006
+35
Reply #230 December 1, 2007 4:40:19 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
OK, I can't submit official results yet (sorry guys!) since I still haven't received confirmation from Neilo and FireBender. That being said, for those of you that may be compiling scores on your own (I'm looking at you Kzinti ) here are some matters of interest to take into account.

All verified submitted games are averaged for team score; even if the submitted game is not a win of the correct type. This goes for score, game time, and submission time.

Mumblefratz touched on it earlier but since we leave ties unbroken please note that in this round we had multiple ties in the speed category. PlayJeff45 took the spot of the fastest game at 2yrs, but then we had 7 players who tied with 3 year games. This means that PlayJeff took first; then 7 players with 3yrs took second place, but the next player who had a
4 year game actually placed 9th.

Edit: Yes, Toshiro Mifune had a 3yr game but it is a win of the incorrect type and as such is not able to receive bonus points. That is why there is 7 instead of 8 who have tied.
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Neilo
KzintiPatriarch
Join Date 05/2007
+95
Reply #231 December 1, 2007 7:32:24 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
That being said, for those of you that may be compiling scores on your own (I'm looking at you Kzinti ) here are some matters of interest to take into account.


I believe I took all that into account, I'll send you a PM of my results if want to compare.


All verified submitted games are averaged for team score; even if the submitted game is not a win of the correct type. This goes for score, game time, and submission time.

PlayJeff45 took the spot of the fastest game at 2yrs


Congratulations to my team-mate PlayJeff on fastest game....excellent job!   

Kzinti empire2.JPG Sentient species taste better...
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Neilo
PlayJeff45
Join Date 02/2007
+13
Reply #232 December 1, 2007 8:28:02 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Thank you O Fearless captain of D


http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee294/thalanruler/TeamD1.png
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Neilo
Neilo
Join Date 04/2006
+128
Reply #233 December 1, 2007 9:11:39 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Mumble, Silver and FB.

I have set up a forum for points discussion and tallying over at the Tyranny of Evil forum site.

Tyranny of Evil

Silver and FB, you are already set up as mods of the forum. Now Mumble i know you are not a score keeper per se, but we could use the forum for anything related to the MVL so all 4 MVL admins should have access. It is hidden and private so only us four can post and read threads.

Mumble let me know if and when you sign up and i will grant you access.

My round 4 summary is there now for confirmation, please post your efforts in there too guys.

Another matter,

Do we want to get round 5 up and running now guys? Or wait a little while? I am ready to go and could have the round up in no time.

Please let me know.

Round results will be available shortly guys.
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Neilo
Mumblefratz
Join Date 07/2006
+139
Reply #234 December 1, 2007 11:38:27 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
All verified submitted games are averaged for team score; even if the submitted game is not a win of the correct type. This goes for score, game time, and submission time.

Edit: Yes, Toshiro Mifune had a 3yr game but it is a win of the incorrect type and as such is not able to receive bonus points. That is why there is 7 instead of 8 who have tied.

Actually I would think that wins of the incorrect type (or losses)should not count towards team bonuses as well as be ineligible for individual bonus. Clearly in this round a military victory easily out scores an alliance win. It's really not fair to average in a military victory.

Since team bonus are average base this doesn't hurt the team's chance at a team bonus but also doesn't give them an unfair advantage.

Mumble let me know if and when you sign up and i will grant you access.

I registered and am waiting for approval.

[edit]
Do we want to get round 5 up and running now guys? Or wait a little while? I am ready to go and could have the round up in no time.

Actually a couple of days breather would be fine by me. I'm continuing my game just for yuks to see if I can get any alliance. I've had the Korx with 8 plus factors and 1 minus factor for over a year now and still no close. I can possibly get one more plus factor (9 is the limit in DL) but with only two opponents left there's no way to get rid of a minus due to "close borders". I'm starting to come to the conclusion that an alliance is not possible in DL v1.4x although I can't imagine how that is possible.

[/edit]
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Neilo
Silverbeacher
Join Date 09/2006
+35
Reply #235 December 1, 2007 11:49:59 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Mumlbefratz, the only thing with not averaging them in is that then the game has no value whatsoever, since it would not be counted for any type of scoring purpose. I am personally somewhat torn, I agree in the spirit of what you are saying, but I also don't want any player to feel like they wasted their time.
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Neilo
DethAdder
Join Date 02/2004
+73
Reply #236 December 1, 2007 11:52:56 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Maybe divide the score of incorect types in half and then allow it to be added in the team average would be a good compromise
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Neilo
Silverbeacher
Join Date 09/2006
+35
Reply #237 December 1, 2007 11:54:48 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Unfortunately, this results in a Rule Change and thus if we are going to use it this round I need a ruling from Neilo at the very least.

Also, it wouldn't be advisable for a team to purposefully submit a win of the wrong type for a round since the possible gain in bonus pts would be negated by the loss of the 2 base pts
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Neilo
Silverbeacher
Join Date 09/2006
+35
Reply #238 December 2, 2007 12:15:49 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
CORRECTION;

AS STATED IN THE MVL RULEBOOK

Team Bonus Points

All team bonus points are based on the average of the team’s submitted games. Just as in the individual bonus point case only wins of the correct type are counted. The 1st place team receives 2 points and the 2nd place team receives 1 point in the following categories.


However, there are possible situations where a team could theoretically receive 1 Base Point from a victory of the wrong type but not have that game averaged into score/speed/submission time.
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Neilo
FireBender
Join Date 10/2006
+7
Reply #239 December 2, 2007 1:23:31 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Do we want to get round 5 up and running now guys? Or wait a little while? I am ready to go and could have the round up in no time.


I'd advise against that. Remember, Christmas is on the 25th. We really shouldn't press people to submit games in the holiday season. I'd reccommend waiting a bit.

I would have to consider that an authorized substitute game is a legitimate game and worthy of bonus but that defeats or wins of the incorrect type are not.


In the current round, the subsitute game is not elligible to recieve bonus points since it is a defeat. But I was just curious as to what we would do in case it does.

I'll send you the results shortly, silver and neilo. Bad weather here yesterday. Power outage.


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Neilo
Silverbeacher
Join Date 09/2006
+35
Reply #240 December 2, 2007 1:28:42 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
A valid substitute game of the correct victory type is good for any of the possible bonus points
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Neilo
Mumblefratz
Join Date 07/2006
+139
Reply #241 December 2, 2007 1:33:04 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Maybe divide the score of incorect types in half and then allow it to be added in the team average would be a good compromise

No not really. Doing this makes it more into a penalty. Plus would you double the games years as well? Now it's just complicated and again again a penalty.

Leaving the loss/incorrect win out of the average is a more neutral thing to do. It doesn't penalize a team for a low score loss nor does it reward the team for a high score incorrect win.

IMHO the best for everyone is to leave the loss/incorrect win out of the average.
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Neilo
FireBender
Join Date 10/2006
+7
Reply #242 December 2, 2007 1:38:26 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Would the Teams mind posting the banners that they would like representing them in the reselts? I can't find the links.
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Neilo
Silverbeacher
Join Date 09/2006
+35
Reply #243 December 2, 2007 1:41:14 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
In any case the MVL Rulebook is clear on how to proceed at the current time. Myself and Neilo have already come to this conclusion and our score tallies reflect all current rules and standards put into place for the MVL. If, after this round, individuals wish to discuss possible rule changes may I suggest the MVL Rulebook thread where we can reference the current rules that are standing.
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Neilo
Mumblefratz
Join Date 07/2006
+139
Reply #244 December 2, 2007 1:43:54 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Mumlbefratz, the only thing with not averaging them in is that then the game has no value whatsoever, since it would not be counted for any type of scoring purpose. I am personally somewhat torn, I agree in the spirit of what you are saying, but I also don't want any player to feel like they wasted their time.

I submitted an incorrect win and am happy that at least it would have counted for 1 point towards base score if it had been needed. In my case it wasn't needed and I'm fine with that but it's not fair to add my 32K in for an average, particularly since it could have been 100K.

In my case adding the 32K as part of the average is an undeserved benefit to the team. In the case of the loss the intrinsically low score of a loss causes a lower average than if it was not included. I would think that someone whose contribution was negative would feel better if it wasn't counted.

As far as feeling like they wasted their time no one that knowingly submits a loss or incorrect win has any real expectation of being rewarded for it. Generally they're doing so specifically to cause the least harm possible to their team. In the case of posting a loss there's not even the possible 1 point for base score but it's at least saying "Gee guys I'm sorry, but at least I'm still here trying". There's a kind of honor in that.
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Neilo
Silverbeacher
Join Date 09/2006
+35
Reply #245 December 2, 2007 1:47:15 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
yes, after discussing it with Neilo and reviewing the Rulebook, we have come to the conclusion that games of the incorrect type are not used for averaging. They are only used for Base Points, if needed. If others wish that this be changed we can discuss it after results have been finalized for this round.
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Neilo
Mumblefratz
Join Date 07/2006
+139
Reply #246 December 2, 2007 1:52:32 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
In any case the MVL Rulebook is clear on how to proceed at the current time. Myself and Neilo have already come to this conclusion and our score tallies reflect all current rules and standards put into place for the MVL. If, after this round, individuals wish to discuss possible rule changes may I suggest the MVL Rulebook thread where we can reference the current rules that are standing.

Exactly correct.

Also I think the rule on loss/incorrect win is best as it currently stands.

If anything we may want to revisit the tiebreak situation having had 7 ties in this round. I've probably been the biggest proponent of leaving ties unbroken but 7 is a bit much. Again this should go in the rule thread, so I'll make this suggestion there as well.
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Neilo
dystopic
Join Date 10/2005
+41
Reply #247 December 2, 2007 2:05:16 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I've probably been the biggest proponent of leaving ties unbroken but 7 is a bit much.


i don't know if i agree. this is certainly unusual, but i think the high number of 3-year victories was directly related to the game settings and requisite victory type. this could reflect fore-thinking on part of several teams; while changing the rule for future rounds is a matter of debate, i'm not sure if you're suggesting that it be changed now, for this round's scoring. i wouldn't agree with that.
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Neilo
Neilo
Join Date 04/2006
+128
Reply #248 December 2, 2007 2:12:46 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Agreed on all points here gentleman. I think points like these highlight the need for a dedicated forum so i am glad we no have one. (note the smug tone;))

If anything we may want to revisit the tiebreak situation having had 7 ties in this round. I've probably been the biggest proponent of leaving ties unbroken but 7 is a bit much.


Yes, i agree. I really don't like that many ties, but also agree that it is a discussion for another thread and at another time.

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Neilo
Neilo
Join Date 04/2006
+128
Reply #249 December 2, 2007 2:15:41 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
i'm not sure if you're suggesting that it be changed now, for this round's scoring. i wouldn't agree with that.


No of course not. Im of the believe that he does indeed mean for suture rounds. This rounds rules are concrete.
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Neilo
KzintiPatriarch
Join Date 05/2007
+95
Reply #250 December 2, 2007 2:30:45 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
this could reflect fore-thinking on part of several teams; while changing the rule for future rounds is a matter of debate, i'm not sure if you're suggesting that it be changed now, for this round's scoring. i wouldn't agree with that.


This certainly was our purposeful strategy for Team D, and if the rules were changed now (for this round), I would be very pissed indeed.

Kzinti empire2.JPG Sentient species taste better...

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