I agree to some extant, that's one reason for cutting down the bonus from 3, 2 and 1 for 1st, 2nd and 3rd to 1 point each. Also as you said we can try it and see. We've changed scoring rules so far there's no reason to assume that we have to stick with something it's clear people don't like.

However, this is a *Metaverse* League and so participation in the MV is assumed. I will agree that the MV focuses *only* on score and that's not the only thing that's important. I agree that the purpose of the League is not necessarily to focus *only* on score but I also believe that score is one legitimate measure of a game. I can understand some folks objection to the MV's exclusive focus on score but besides speed of game what other quantifiable measure do you suggest on which to rank games?

If the only point is participation then give everyone 2 points for win, lose or draw and all rounds end up in a complete tie. Where is the motivation to improve in this scenario? I agree that both score and speed are imperfect measures of peoples skill level in the game but they're the only measures I know of. I'd be happy to include any other quantifiable measures that can reasonably be thought of. The purpose of bonuses is to adjust for evidence of skill that does not necessarily show up in the score. I'm not suggesting that this is the case, but if you really believe that score is totally meaningless then perhaps you shouldn't be in the Metaverse at all let alone a Metaverse League.


Fine with me.

The other stuff is immaterial to me. Bonuses are fine to have or not to have. The non-submittal penalty is a real sticking point with me, though.

The only people it punishes are those who stay in the league. It has no effect of those who leave. It just seems to be a counterproductive idea.

I'll remain vehemently opposed to this one thing and will continue to speak out against it. I will abide by the decision of the commissioner, but that doesn't mean I'll do it in silence.

Tend to agree. They must be evil in some way.

The mob has spoken. Non-submital penalty is gone, unless there is an equally loud outcry for it to remain.

Again i am starting to be lost in the midst of suggestions at where we are with scoring and bonus points. The 14 hour shifts i have been working for the last week are getting to me.

New proposal,

Team Bonus

Fastest team game time (average) 2 BP
2nd fastest team game time (average) 1 BP

Highest team score (average) 2 BP
2nd highest team score (average) 1 BP

Individual Bonus

2 and 3 year game time 2 points.

4 and 5 year game time 1 point.

1st, 2nd and 3rd highest scoring games 1 point each.

What do you think of that guys?

No penalty's.

This sounds good to me.

I prefer the average method because it's fairer than going with a cumulative total. Those who have a 5 member team would be at a disadvantage for speed unless someone didn't submit a game. Not the best thing to encourage, IMO.

Not on the penalty issue. I'm against it. Sorry.   



Yes, that would be unfair, but isn't an average either. An average would be only among the submissions. A 5 member team with 4 submissions wouls be averaged among the 4 submissions. To do otherwise makes no sense.

Has someone suggested that we divide 4 sumbissions by 5? If so, I haven't seen it. Then again, there are too many words to read and I don't have that kind of time.



In My Humble Opinion. I prefer IMO for In My Opinion.

As a starter, I think I clearly stated my own suggestions in Reply #1 of this thread.

In reply #6 of this thread I simply mentioned that I didn't care for the idea of using the normal empire ranking system as method of scoring for the MVL. I also supported Marshall's idea of using averages to avoid the problems with different sized teams. I also expressed my preference for the existence of many small bonuses versus fewer but larger bonuses. This has been a constant theme in all of my replies in this thread as well as some of the other threads as well.

Reply #23 was basically an aside related to getting some front page forum support for the league as well as a request for some support for the MVL from Kryo.

In reply #28 I restated my opinion about many small bonuses and expressed a dislike of artifical limitations on the number of bonus points any one player could receive. If I'm not mistaken I will have earned the most bonus points of any player for the first two rounds so my expression of support of reducing the 1st place bonus for score and speed from 3 points to 1 point is rather altruistic on my part. I'm not doing any of this to ensure that I always take the top spot, in fact I would expect that an unbiased view of my proposals would tend to imply the opposite. Also in reply #28 I expressed that average team speed should be a team scoring criteria just as average team score should be. Finally I also expressed dislike of giving bonuses for any particular racial choice because the implied disavantage of any race is very subjective.

In Reply #33 I bumped the thread because it had been inactive for almost a week and also suggested changing the start/end date to the 15th instead of the 13th (no big deal one way or the other).

In response to Neilo's (reply #36) summary of the discussion and a proposal of how to continue, my reply #42 merely expressed my opinion about the specific proposals that Neilo was essentially asking for people to vote on.

In reply #46 I mentioned that the idea of 4 or 5 on a team was not really relavent to the discussion about the scoring rules and suggested that such a discussion could occur once we get to the point of having to make such a decision. I also yet again expressed my preference to avoid adding rules and exceptions to rules that are involved by breaking ties and merely suggested that ties be treated equally in all cases. I also reminded folks about previous discussions we had involving ties where it was essentially agreed to try it with ties broken by submission date (which is what we used this round) and leaving ties equal. Since we have already tried it one way I was suggesting that we should at least try leaving ties unbroken before we condemn this method out of hand. I also (yet again) expressed my opinion that non-submittal was the worst thing that anyone could do because besides letting your own teammates down it undermines the existance of the league.

In Reply #48 I responded directly to Neilo's questions about my stance on leaving ties unbroken. I also suggested the potential of using submission date (to the league not the MV) as a separate bonus category instead of using MV submission date as the tiebreak criteria for game speed.

In reply #52 I responded to your proposal of elimination of individual bonuses as essentially duplication of the team bonuses. I merely pointed out that I had already supported the reduction of individual bonuses but that I didn't support their elimination. I also addressed the point you made about "just maxxing out points like the metaverse".

It was this response that you apparently took offense to. My precise quote was "I'm not suggesting that this is the case, but if you really believe that score is totally meaningless then perhaps you shouldn't be in the Metaverse at all let alone a Metaverse League".

Firstly I want to highlight that I prefaced this with "I'm not suggesting that this is the case". Secondly my point was that IF you think score is meaningless THEN ...

I was by no way suggesting that you should leave the MV or the League and that is certainly not my desire. I also agree that the score should not be the *only* focus of the MV and the League but I was pointing out that score should be *part* of the focus of the MV and the League.

I could go on almost endlessly, pointing out the positive suggestions I've made in the other 4 or 5 threads related to this league as well as point out the positive contributions I've made to the formation of this league to begin with but I hope I've pointed out enough to make my point.

Again I want to repeat I have no desire to see you, or anyone else for that matter, leave the MV or the League. If anything I have put far more effort than anyone else on these forums promoting the advancement of everything related to the MV for close to a year now. The actual point of the post that apparently offended you was, yes I agree that the score is not *everything* but I do believe that the score does have some meaning.

There certainly are people that believe that score *does* mean absolutely nothing. I have no issue with folks that believe that way, but at the same time everyone I know that truly feels that way does not participate in the MV. I'll say it yet again, IF you truly believe that the score of your game means absolutely nothing THEN you really don't belong in the MV. After all what is the MV but a glorified list of high scores. I feel this is a perfectly legitimate thing to say and is still consistent with wanting to encourage people to join and play the MV as well as join and play the MVL. I see no dichotomy in this opinion nor do I see it as one that anyone should take offense from, regardless of their opinion about game score.

This addressed the non-submittal penalty as well as the point of using averages which apparently was TP_Scot's question.

The point of using averages is that it evens the playing field between teams of different sizes as well as provides a method for the 5th players score to be legitimately used and not simply discarding someones score because it was the lowest (or slowest).

The point about dividing 4 scores by 5 only applies to a 5 man team where one player doesn't submit a game. In that case since all 5 players games count (the divide by part) but one player didn't submit (hence only 4 scores) that's what results in 4 divided by 5.

In a similar manner if someone on a 4 player team didn't submit a game then there would be 3 scores divided by 4 players. However, the normal course of events when everyone submits a game is 4 games divided by 4 or 5 games divide by 5.

On the non-submittal penalty, while I still believe non-submittal is the worst thing possible, there does appear to be sufficient support for the removal of this penalty so by all means let's get rid of it. After all, like all of these rules we're discussing, we could possibly revisit this if non-submittal becomes a prevalent problem.

Mumble, as reply no#64 clearly states the immense detail in which you look into things I must ask,

Are you archiving this thread???

Also, lets get rid of the discrepency of who did what. Since your the head of the MVC and a Ambassador of Galciv2, it clearly says that you contributed alot to the game and the MV system. And we(or me atleast) acknowledge that.

I am now clearly stating, lets not delay the beginning of Round 3. Round 3 will start on the 15th or 16th at the furthest. Which is tommorow(or day after that). Lets just get all this cleaned up. We have had alot of discussion. Now lets draw what has been decided on and what is uder discussion.

Two days to decide. I think it is confirmed that Round 3 will have multiple victory conditions. If it isn't I'm gonna get you, neilo! And your gonna pay!(in cash)   Just kidding.

The topics in discussion are:

1) The score division of 5 player teams.

2) Average team years or cumalative team years.

3) Ties in game time

4) Tie in team score or individual score

5)


Topics which have been decided on:

1) Date for Round 3 is 15th.(being extended to 16th if the need arises)

2) Resignation and defeat penalties are anulled. (I dont agree with resignation though since players have the option of informing us that they cannot make the deadline because of real life, both options have no penalty)

3) The average score from each team is calculated. And the highest average score is given bonus points. (how many is still in debate, correct?)

4) THE CELESTIAL CRUSADERS RULE!

5) Ditto on No.4!   

6)


As you notice I've left out one space to represent what will be suggested and what will be decided. Try to mention what you are with or against.

Also, since noone on my team has any objection to me taking the empty post of captain of the crusaders. I'm now Captain of my team.

Mumble, can you give me control of our private forums at the core?

-Fire

I dont agree with dropping the penalty for this round. I mean I would agree with dropping the penalty(for this round) but wouldn't agree if it were in the middle of a round.

So if neilo really did drop the penalty I really wouldn't agree. Are we all in agreement?

I agree with dropping it for this round (even though I just showed up for the end). If the penalty is not dropped, it seems like the teams with 5 members have a significant advantage. Regardless of this, I think the new round should start tomorrow. Lets keep this rolling!

Vilgan

A few more thoughts on non-submittals.

Basically we could continue this kind of format without having teams and it would essentially be similar to the tournaments that Wyndstar used to hold. In this case people could chose to participate or not from month to month and it's no real big deal. The fact that a league of individuals without teams wouldn't require a committment to play at any particular time is a strong motivation for doing it that way. I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea, in fact I think it would be good to have something similar to what we currently have with "random" games for individuals.

The downside of this is that you do lose the potential of having a team that can be greater than the sum of it's parts. Also with a team there is motivation for more experienced players to share ideas with less experienced players. Actually forget the more and less experienced part and focus on the fact that players will share information and strategies which increases the probability of improvement. The other thing is that we already do have a league of individuals, it's called the Metaverse.

I think that as soon as you form teams you essentially have to be willing to make a commitment to play because regardless of using averages or not if you don't submit a game you are letting your team down. I guess people need to decide whether or not they enjoy the team format enough to keep it going by making the required commitment.

Another possibility is to perhaps simply have larger teams so that a non-submittal or two spread over the league really doesn't matter. But again that's kind of what we already have in the current Empire system. I think the League arose out of the desire to have teams (or empires) that were somehow balanced so that it was a legitimate to compare teams/empires. In the current empire system what does it mean if one empire is ahead of another if the one that's ahead has 20 active players and the one behind has 2 active players.

If we simply have larger teams that people come and go as they please then this comes down to pretty much the same situation that we have in the current empire system.

I still think the bottom line is that if people desire to have a team structure then they need to commit to play. Certainly an occasional miss of a month with appropriate notice is fine. But to simply come to the end of the month and find that more than 20% of all players didn't submit games is very disconcerting. My fear is that if these kind of percentages persist then the league will gradually decay to nothing and I think that is regretable.