MV League Topic of Discussion thread

OK I'll start it off.

First the 3, 2, 1 scoring. I think this is just too many points for just coming in high score or fastest game. I think high scores and fast game deserve some acknowledgement but 3 points just seems like too much. I like the idea of perhaps more bonus points around that more people have a chance at earning, but no one person should be able to run away with it. I think the team should have a higher priority than the individual.

To that end I think the top 3 scores (and ties if it happens, probably unlikely) should each get a single point bonus. Also fastest three games and ties (more likely) without the use of a tiebreaker should get a single point as well. If you get that 4 year win then you get a point even if 4 other people got a 4 year win as well with no fussing around about who submitted first or whatever.

I also like a single point to the fastest cumulative team game years and if they're ties then all teams tying get a point. Same with cumulative score (although ties would be less likely). I would even be willing to make it 2 points for the team bonus points. This would encourage everyone to do better. Someone that did a 6 year game could help his team by merely improving to a 5 year game. So it wouldn't be all on one person getting a very quick game but the entire team doing well.

I would also support eliminating any kind of negative points for everything except the non-submital. Right now if I remember correctly we have a minus 1 for slowest game and lowest score. I don't think we need to add to someone's grief over their performance by giving negative points. Also adding the two team cumulative categories gives enough incentive to not be slowest or lowest. I think that's enough incentive.

As far as non-submital I think the policy we have isn't bad although it does seem that the 5 man teams do have a big advantage on this. In some sense I don't think it's fair to penalize the team for a single players failure but I do think this is the worst thing someone can do, at the least someone can post a loss or resignation. I think posting a loss is far more honorable than posting nothing.

Finally, although the team competition is a major part of the league I'd like to think that a major point of the league is the improvement of the game of all that join and play. The point is that even the so-called "worst" member of the team should feel that they can contribute something if only improving their 10 year game from last month to 9 years. People won't stick around and play if they feel they're simply always going to lose. However, if they feel that they're learning and improving by participating then winning or losing is not the only point of playing.

What Mumble said.   

Just a quick post, though it seems we are on the same page here Mumble,


No negative points, except non submital, both resign and defeat are just 0

only top two in fastest and highest category get bonus points (BP)...
2 for high/fast - 1 for 2nd highest/fastest

bonus points are only 1 per team, per category, a team cold have a BP from each category but not both the highest or fastest, the point moves to the next best in another team.

the relaxing of game settings, the way it is now it is structured so no-one has any advantage in getting a score, well we need to take away the focus from scoring as much as possible. If we relax the rules a little we might get more players, and even though there may be some exploiting of scores, it is about a win not the score you get.

With this in mind a win in the correct manner up to 3, to try and make the bonus's not so overpowering.

The team points, for the winner, i think should be 1 point only if all 4 players meet the required challenge.

Just ideas, guys....

Edit - I'd like Ghost's thoughts on how to combine the current league as it is and his original idea, not that i remember it atm, but i do recall there being a few players who did not make the move from that thread to the league.

Anything to get more players...

Hmmm. Not sure I can add much, I'm afraid.

The only thing you can really take from my original idea would be to make the teams as actual empires, since the empire system was what made me come up with the idea in the first place. I don't think that's really essential, mind you, but it would provide a built-in scoring system in the form of the metaverse (I keep wanting to spell that as "meatverse" -- is anyone else having that problem?).

Unlike many people who have opined, I do think that scores should matter, and that was also an aspect of my original conception of a league. I mean, winning isn't everything and all that, but scores are certainly a metric that one can use to see which team is "winning", as well as for players to gauge for themselves how much they are improving. Keep in mind that I am not one of the better players here; my scores are fairly average, so it's not like I suggest this out of some need to show off, heh.

Lest you think that I am complaining about the current state of the league, that is not the case. In general, I think it's going well, and I also think you're doing a great job organizing things, Neilo. I am confident that whatever doesn't work will get ironed out shortly.

If we're lacking in players, I suspect that has more to do with the needlessly complicated rules we started with, which, while not inherently a Bad Thing (TM), probably turned a few people off. Also, the idea for a league came at, perhaps, an awkward time: DA had been out for a while, we probably had less traffic on the forums, the sidebar was full of stupid religious posts, whatever. I am confident that we can pick up a lot more players once TA comes out, and we should try to make an effort to be more visible for that reason. An effort to simplify things will also likely bring us a few more players, IMHO.

OK, I guess I did have something to say. Go me!

Oh yes...so often it is no longer funny. Thank frak there is an edit feature, or we might well be playing in the Meatverse League...

The simplification of the rules is going to be an ongoing process, but yes i think if we can come up with a more simple way of doing things, we might attract some new players.

i tell you what would get us some new players, IMHO, a sticky or a quick front page post about the league....

What do you say Kryo et al, have we done enough to get some recognition. Not for any ego, simply as a way to advertise and promote the league, and the Metaverse as well....

I agree that TA should bring some people back to the game, would still be nice to get a few more MV councilor's playing too......

Everyone start the Kryo summoning ritual, on my mark.

Ready? Go!

Kryo, by the power vested in me by MarcusCardiff, I do summon thee!

----------------------

Neilo, I just started reading through the original league thread, and it's notable that quite a few of the people who threw ideas in the ring did not actually join us. Might be worth asking them why...

My idea.



Resignation should still carry a -1. A resignation is still as bad as a no show. i.e I can just "fill in" my submission with a resign knowing that atleast my team won't suffer negative points. I think to keep the league healthy, this is the last thing we need.



Actually, the bonus points do, in a way, decide the victors. This would just make the points look more numarable. i.e. 2 teams of 2 players(example!) both players from both teams submit a game: 4 - 4 points. In this example we assume no player suffered a defeat.



lol. We are all on the same page, neilo. (I know its a bit childish)



I have had an idea to get us some more players for some time since you said "Go forth and bring the masses, Scot".

Here it is:
Private message invitations.

Just pick a person who has the game and send it.

I've already sent out 3 at the core.

And, I think that the fastest game tie breaker should be last game date not time of submission.

And the Celestial Crusaders rule!

-Scot

Seems like some varying ideas are starting to surface. That's a good thing.

IMO, bonus points are a tad heavy. I'd like to see only one point max for any bonus, beit high score or fast game. Maybe one each to the two fastest players or highest scorers, depending on the game.

Also, since the person submitting the game to the league takes the chance of being bested, I think the first person to submit a winning game to the league should get a bonus point. If it's a 10 year game, that's ok. First submission should count for something.

Then again, I, like most others, will go along with whatever the commissioner decides.

Here's a slightly different take on team scores and nonsubmittals.

If the team score for the round were the average of all members' scores rather than the sum, we would no longer have to drop anyone's score, and the penalty for not submitting a game would be inherent in the system. FTR, I do think there should be some penalty for not even bothering to submit a game, it's one of the worst things you can do to your teammates.

With an average score (sum of all players' scores divided by number of players), the Blade Runners' score for round 1 would have been 27440 / 4 = 6860. If the lowest of our scores had not been submitted (making it a 0 score), our score would instead have been 22655 / 4 = 5664. That's quite a difference.

The main benefit I actually see for using an average score is that fifth players' scores don't need to be dropped - you're dividing five scores by five players, so it evens out. Unless that 5th score is a 0, which will bring the team down.

I think using an average score makes the whole thing more of a team effort, and would go a ways toward streamlining the scoring system. Neilo or TP, do you have all of the scores from round 1 handy to do a comparison? I'm curious how it would have turned out using averages.

What do you all think?



I never sausage a pack of villains!

Yeah. I'll just do the Team D scores in your scoring system. Let's see here...

Their combined score was 40,710

Average: (475 + 22875 + 3875 + 13485) divided by 4 = 10,177.5

Since I didn't fully understand what your scoring system thing is, I'll leave the rest to you.




 

I wonder what teams E and F will be named.

-Scot

After reading that again, I think I should point out that I did not mean that I thought we should get rid of the points system - I like that as it is. I was only talking about the game scores - so, if we give a bonus point for highest team score, it is more of a team effort, and heavily encourages everyone to submit a game. And, as I said, everyone's score would count toward that team score, and no one's score would have to be dropped.

I think that clarifies what I meant.

I second this motion. And I also suggest that the cumalative years or the team should be counted and the team with the least years would get a 1 point bonus.

Also, I need thoughts on what I said before my last post.

-Scot

For the scores, Marshall, take a look at the league ladder in my op of the results thread. There you will find cumulative scores for the teams.

I like your idea too by the way. The same could be done to game time. Combine the years it took the team to complete the challenge, not the individual.

Based on Marshall's suggestions, and including mine of fastest team time, if i understand right, round 1 might have looked like this....

I included defeats but left out Darth's no show,

A Team score = 6071 - time = 4.75yrs

Blade Runners score = 6860 - time = 6.25yrs

Celestial Crusaders score = 12323 - time = 7.25yrs

Domination of Death score = 10177 - time = 8yrs

We could then apply a bonus point for the fastest team win and highest team score, forget individual bonus's all together.

Team bonus for all members completing the challenge 1 point.

If this way was adopted i would count defeats and non-submital's in working out the averages but they would still need to complete the challenge to get their 2 points.

The round would have shaped out like this,

A = 6 challenge points + fastest team time = 7 points
B = 8 challenge points + team completion bonus = 9 points
C = 8 challenge points + highest team score + team completion bonus = 10 points
D = 6 challenge points = 6 points

An interesting concept, seems more streamlined to me...i like it, provided i even grasped the idea correctly...

In fact i really like it...again, thoughts?



Actually Ghost, i did pm i think, everyone who posted in that thread who did not make it acoss into the new threads...honestly, i cannot recall what affect that had, i think one or two of the late comers may have been from the pm's, but they/I was largely ignored. I did not feel the need to harras(sp) them so i left it be.

I would very much like those individual's input on why they did not play, perhaps we could have adjusted to accommodate them.....



Perhaps the first team to have all members submit a game could get a bonus. Though i could go either way on this.

Mumble, this is somewhat premature, but do you have any idea on what exactly Kryo would need of us to be compatible? The thread at the core about this seems to have subsided.

The Commish.

Well i started writing mine b4 Tp posted, so forget the discrepancy of who though of what, the idea still stands...

I have got to learn to type quicker.......

Do you mean the names of E and F Scot?

Let the players work that out when the time comes...

It seems there is a lot more to discuss then what I previously thought. New discussions are being born from the ideas of old.

With the opening of this thread we can safely say that the league is now indeed flexible and does facilitate the player's suggestions. Galciv2 rockz.

In a few days I will have my new graphics card. Maybe the Nvidia 7900 GS.
Is there any noticable difference between the 7900 GS and the 7900 GT?
I want a user's opinion.

-Scot

Yeah there's been a lot of stuff talked about here.

Although I like Ghostwes' idea about the empires which would then leave the normal empire ranking system in play, I think it may be too awkward of an overhead to require.

I like Marshall's idea of score average because it evens things between 4 and 5 man teams but still allows the 5th man to participate.

I don't like eliminating all the individual bonuses in favor of team bonuses or of restricting the bonuses that one team can get. My idea is that we have a lot of different kinds of bonuses but that any one bonus shouldn't be too much. I'd still prefer 1 point for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Maybe even add a point for 4th. I don't think making the base win 3 points is a good idea.

As far as a resignation I would leave it as a loss. It's a way for some to at least submit something and the fact that it takes so little time is fine. If something comes up in someone's real life I appreciate if they took a half hour to do something. It at least shows they care. I'd reserve the only negative points for not bothering with anything.


Probably $100. Don't know from personal experience but the 7900GT is supposed to be a lot more card than a 7900GS. I thought I looked at some performance data and effective bandwidth was close to double. You should be able to google it and find a comparison rather easily.

Here is a great site i use for comparisons. The two cards in question are in blue..

Personally i have a 7600gt and didn't think twice about buying it over the 7600gs...go the extra mile!

Toms Hardware card comparision

MarcusCardiff?

Oh no, don't bring that crap in here!!!!!

TP, I don't know where that quote came from, and I don't want to - please don't go there!!!

Seriously, what are you talking about?

Ghost said it in his kryo summoning ritual.



-Scot

Sure, I can sticky a thread for you guys. Which one do you want done, the results/ladder thread?

I think what Neilo was asking for was more in line with something about the MVL on the front page although he did mention a sticky as well. I do of course realize that front page acknowledgement of the League is a bit more to ask for than simply making a thread sticky.

I think the best thread to sticky would be the The Metaverse League thread, but that's just my guess.

Actually the preface of all this was simply the desire to promote the MV League and my own thoughts about what would best do this would be to get the MV League submission process along with a display of current and cumulative MVL results somehow incorporated into the AltMeta.

I know that we've had some back room discussions of the matter and that perhaps this puts you on the spot a bit, but how about it?

My 2 cents about bonus points would be more in line with Mumble. I think that more bonuses would help in a few ways.

1. It would lessen the probability of ties.
2. Allow people to work within the parameters for the round, but be creative in the path of the win ( like high score vs. speed )
3. Help "newer" or self proclaimed weaker players feel like they can contribute more to the team.

I would want to see that all bonuses be something simple, like +1. I mentioned in another thread some things you could consider. Obviously speed and high score, but maybe a bonus for high raw score of a team ( not needed if we use average score ). Or bonuses for winning with a certain race that would be stated at the beginning of the round. Of course, I know we are trying to keep it fairly simple, but having more options to shoot at for a bonus point would be fun to me. And you can always limit it per person, like no more than 2 bonus points could be earned or something. That way you wouldnt have someone with the fastest time and the highest score "hoarding" all the bonuses.

Thank you Kryo, yes as Mumble said the The Metaverse League would be the best i think. This is great, again thanks.



I like this one Piznit, maybe the race that has the least in common with the rounds challenge could have a 1 point bonus....nice



Yep, i think this could very well be used. We need to have a balance somewhere.