CobraA1

Join Date 09/2006

+26

After playing for a while, I just don't like the new spy system anymore

After playing for a bit, I've come to the conclusion that I really don't like the new spy system anymore.

While I have nothing against the concept, the implementation makes the game one sided.

It all essentially boils down to this: Can you afford to make more spies than your opponents?

If you can, you have a quick and easy way to cripple your opponents' economy. And with their economy crippled, they don't have the resources to nullify your spies, so you can send them into a death spiral.

If you can't, then you essentially spend ALL of the spying budget you can afford in nullifying enemy spies so you can maintain some semblance of an economy, and you have to sit there watching enemy spies cripple your civilization.

Of course you can't counter their spies because your economy is crippled, so you can't afford to nullify their spies. Now you are in a downward spiral.

In addition, since the spies are all spent nullifying other spies, your ability to spy on other nations is severely crippled

.

It just seems to be a bit too powerful and too unbalancing - and too distracting from the rest of the game. Instead of focusing on what I want to focus on, be it technology, culture, economy, or manufacturing, instead I have to focus my resources on getting those pesky spies out.

The game just degrades to a spy war most of the time. I'd much rather concentrate on more important things.

I'm not saying remove the spy system completely - just re-think it a bit.

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I agree!!!!

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I dont use spies, and my AI doesnt tend to use them(minus Krynn), so it doesnt bother me much.

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I have never had that happen. If it's such an issue, go down the tech tree route that allows you to buld centers that prevent spies and put them on the planets you deem most important.

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I have never had that happen. If it's such an issue, go down the tech tree route that allows you to buld centers that prevent spies and put them on the planets you deem most important.

Problem solved. It is the second diplomacy tech that branches off in to counter-espianoge centers, which also happen to be one of the best morale buildings too. Never worry about spies again.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

The anti-spy building is no compensation for being unable to make counter-espionage a global budget priority--real estate is far more precious than line item spending.

I've mostly made my peace with the espionage changes in DA, but I remain mystified as to why the devs saw the situation as either/or. Is there no room in the UI to restore the old sliders and call them passive intel while labeling the new spy unit spending differently? I appreciate that a potential agent provacateur can also provide strong intelligence reports, but the new model denies the fact that watching and reporting is typically easier than watching and acting.

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I totally agree that the new espionage system is not fun. Every AI, even your allies, love to spy on the leader. So right when you ought to be having the most fun as you start to conquer the galaxy, you get inundated with spies. I was spending a full 25% of my budget (500 bc/turn I think it was) and still had 11 spies on my planets in the DA campaign. I never got to spy on anyone else the whole game.

My other beef is that spying should be separate from sabotage. Allies spying on each other is great fun. But why should allies (and worse, teammates) be sabotaging each other? There should at least be a no sabotaging treaty you can sign. But then I'd like to be able to spy and you can't without sabotage.

A whole other, and much longer, thread on this is here: https://forums.galciv2.com/?forumid=346&aid=152343

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Agreed the spy system is too simple, plus its now a pain to get full espoinage on all the civ's, playing agianst 9 AIs i will get 3 to 4 AIs full espoinage by the time the game ends on a gigantic map.

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While I have no problem personally with the spy system, I think what Swicord suggested, a hybrid of the old and new systems, would probably make for a much more interesting (and balanced) game

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Though I feel I have adapeted to the new style and typically can get all the intell I need on critical civs, and clear the spy threats from home space, I also agree with G.W. and drakonfire. There should be a functional separation between info gathering and active (and highly provocative) sabotage. Maybe even a third distinction, for industrial espionage (tech stealing) efforts.

drrider

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

Maybe even a third distinction, for industrial espionage (tech stealing) efforts.

I'm all for making espionage a minigame in its own right; I'm a complexity fan. But a political science background theoretically helps you remember to pick your battles

I'd happily settle for a few hundred words from dev-land about why they made the choices they did--e.g. did they consider a hybrid and reject it b/c it would take too much dev time, or was the blocking point based on how devs think players view the UI? Or, if they hadn't thought of doing a hybrid until we started griping, why no internal response to the idea?

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In all reality, you shouldnt have any idea what your spies are doing. The US dosnt have a clue what most of the CIA are doing around the world, much less the covert ops going on in other countries. We give them funds and trust that they use them for the good of the goal we give them.

Not only such, this is one more thing we have to micro manage. This game isnt about being a General and managing your troops on the ground or in space, and it does a great job doing this for you. Hoever I would like to be able to enlist skilled Generals or what not to combat.

In all the new spy system kills the game for me. I haven't played a full game for a few months now simply due to the Spy situation. I liked the old way better, but it should do more for you in times of war. From stealing ships to causing riots on planets. If your spending is higher and your technology is better then you really should have an advantage. But quite makeing me tell my guys what to do.

At least give me the option of using the old system.

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The new spy system is probably the main reason I am still playing DL.

It really just seems too much of a hassle to deal with.

Other things in DA are inviting, like the asteroid mining.
But the spy system really kills any incentives to purchase the expansion.

(This web site, as well.
C'mon Stardock. Can't you dedicate a server just for GalCiv? I am sick and tired of the snail-pace response times because your server serves so many different sites. Split them up a bit. It is literally the slowest site I ever browse.)

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Alstein

Join Date 07/2004

+55

For 1.7 I want an option to turn spies back to the old way. After trying to appreciate it, I realize that the spy system is horribly broken and I can't see a way to fix it, or any suggestions to fix it without massive code work. All it serves as now is a 25% tax on production.

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Econ event happend and it had been on for about 3 years or so which made a good game, i had advance on the Krynn and looked at their budget as i was considering a economic treaty, and i started to cry when i looked at their spending.. since they put 10k a turn into spying, yet in that game (Beta version .3 btw) i never got one spy against me even though i was their number one enemy latter in the game. Its like 10k a turn could of just been spent so much better.

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For one, the spies get more expensive, and there isnt a way to save them if they are about to be killed. So it’s a one time shot to a more expensive and less effective funding.

I don’t see a way to fix the new system. I can understand having some slider options for espionage. Causing instability, Sabotage, stealing tech and funding or ships even! That would make sense.

But its obvious this was an avenue they wanted to improve something that was already good, not perfect but acceptable. For those that know of the Dark Ages of Camelot Atlantes expansion they would understand the reference as to say, its great attempt to improve, but fail miserably.

In other words, make the spy system how it was, and make it more known when your guys do something right! It would be awesome to have your enemy find that Lucky Ranger only for your Agents to steal there newly dug up prize!

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One more thing...
Sense when would you be able to get away with cutting off your Intelligence spending when you reach the advanced state? That should require maintenance, and degrade if you don’t fund it or the enemy's counter intelligence dominates yours. That’s just a multi level front.

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SO much effort went into the new spy system that I doubt they will change it much now. However, for GC3 I would like to see something different:

I think you should be able to spend money on spying on individual races, as before, but it should just be a flat fee. Either you invest the money or not. The money it costs depends on the size of their empire, and the amount of cash they invest in security. (You should also be able to invest in your own security).

What spying should do, is provide you with limited intelligence, such as showing you the blueprints when the enemy designs a brand new ship, or tell you when they begin constructing a super project or capital. Perhaps you can get budget info too, like their spending levels and what they are diverting to research or military production.

You should also have the option of carrying out missions, such as revealing what the surface of a planet looks like. Instead of planting spies, all it should take is a one off cost (say 500bc to examine a planet).

I think the main problem people have with spying is the sabotage, because the AI always goes for the top dog, and all it does is to prolong a game by slowing you down. The mop up is already one of the more tedious parts of the game. As soon as you reach a certain level of power, they all dogpile on you.

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I too would like to see a split from spying and sabotage and make the two of them completely different. An option in the setup to turn active sabotage off would be a nice addition too.

What i would hope to see in a future release is the ability to dedicate 'X' credits on a slider (say in the F5 window under each race) to general race spying as it was in the old version. This could work alongside the current spy system which could easily (ha ha) be changed to a sabotage only ability.

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The other option is to add a new ship class to the game... Spy satellites! These could be put into orbit around a planet to give you details on it. The idea could be panned out from there to give you a counter to these etc.. maybe a planet based laser or something.

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Hmmm, I just don't have an issue with the new spy system.
When I start the game I set it to 2 bc per turn and pretty much leave it at that level the rest of the game (obviously more bc go to it as my economy grows). I'll turn it down if I'm in economic trouble.

Once I get 3 spys I place 2 on one AI. I'll get to "low" within just a few short turns. I'll go round robin until I have low with everyone. I may lose 1 spy during all this as the AI doesn't seem to spend much on spies early.

Then I just bank up spies and try to get 6-7 of them. If I haven't been nailed by spies myself I'll turn it down to just enough to keep putting money in, even if it's 50 turns to a new spy.

Once the spies start coming after me I can immediately kill 'em. If I get down to only 3 or 4 then I push my slider up to increase the speed of new ones.

As for my use of them after I get low, I really don't except as recon on key worlds I may invade or to lower morale. I'll explain:
1) Just opening up the spy map for a planet will give you an idea what's on it. Will help you target a key world with a trade good or perhpas their econ capital. Take those worlds will cripple them
2) If a planet is already down to say 50 or 60 approval, plant a spy on any morale structure the turn before invasion. This will really drop morale and you can use the invasion tactic that brings people over to your side. You can get an extra couple billion troops this way and can really make a difference. Once you control the planet your spies are put back in the available pool.

Only once have I ever been crippled by other spies (play tough or crippling). I cranked up my money toward spies and eventually got rid of them. Didn't get blitzed again in that game and I won it (tech victory).

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[quote]SO much effort went into the new spy system that I doubt they will change it much now.

Sometimes you have to cut your losses and revert back. A new system isnt always better, I would be staisfied with the option of just using the old system.

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Sometimes you have to cut your losses and revert back. A new system isnt always better, I would be staisfied with the option of just using the old system.

I agree fully. This new spy system was a bad idea. In my last game I had to pay out 1255 bc per turn and wait 7 turns to get one single spy. I had six spies already on my planets, so it would have taken 35 turns just to get rid of them. I was the leading race until then, but I shut the game off. It's just no fun to play "I spy".

I hope that they at least add a switch, so you can shut spying off as an option.

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I wonder what the new expansion will bring out... or GC3?
Stardock needs a pay per month system so our programers can have a steady income. I'd pay 10 bucks a month to access Stardocks stuff and support its workers.

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I used spying substantially last night for the first time, and for the first time I actually stole some techs from my opponents. I'm not sure how I got those techs though, was it because I put spies on their research tiles or was it simply because I had multiple spies on a planet and got my infiltration up to Medium then High?

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I have the opposite view. At first, I ereally did not like it - but after playing for a while, I have come to like the Spy system more than I did. Once I figured out how it works, it is not that bad. Bonscott's post (reply #20) pretty much sums it up.

It could use improvement - the cost of spys later in the game can get astronomical, and the aI does not seem to use it well. I also don't like the fact that you have to cripple your allies to get info on them. But overall, it is not as horrible as a lot of threads here make it out to be, IMHO.

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