Wyndstar

Join Date 06/2006

+12

The Death of Morale Buildings

One player's choice

Alright. Well, I'm sure many of you are brilliant players who could leave me in the dust, so congratulations if you have a better strategy. However, I recently finally figured out how to work through the entire economy model thanks to work by Mumblefratz and Iztok. Going through the numbers it seemed like morale buildings just weren't worth it, so I thought I would play a game without morale buildings as the Krynn and see how I did.

I'm still not done, but the game is going GREAT. I am at around March of 2228 with 40ish colonies on a small map. My empire morale is already over +250%, and there is still one morale resource I haven't managed to capture. Every world is set for a population of 20 (6+7+7) or 19 (12+7), and my tax rate is at 69%. I'm raking in the money, and my approval is just over 60% empire wide thanks to higher morale on my 19b planets and my homeworld. This is just ancedotal evidence however, and I was thinking about it while at work today. The numbers for morale buildings just don't add up.

From a broad theoretical level, of course, morale buildings already have a problem. With low population numbers, they are very useful but unneccessary, so why build them? With higher population numbers you want them, but they are much less useful and every single one takes a tile. In theory I suppose they would be good in a middle ground situation, with a medium population taking up one tile.

But then I broke down the numbers. Thing is, every stock market that you can place is the same as a 2.5% increase in your tax rate. So, to justify a morale building you need the tax rate penalty for a 3% increase to be smaller than the bonus a single morale building provides. And THEN I started to go through the numbers in my head.

Say you run at a 79% tax rate. This is a penalty of -122. But to increase to an 82% tax rate jumps you to around a -158. That means I need to make up 36 points in morale on one tile to justify a morale building. Even a VR center can't do this for populations over 9b.

So you say, they are worthwhile for lower tax rates. Really? OK, say I run at a 69% tax rate. To jump up three percent to a 72% tax rate I need to get 15 points out of a morale building. And look, at 20b a VR center provides a 16% bonus, so building two farms and one morale building lets me set a 72% rate and make more money than two farms, a SM and a 69% tax rate.

But look closer at the numbers. Why are you at a 69% tax rate? Assuming (and I am making this assumption) you can get a native morale bonus of 100%, when are you ever at lower than a 79% rate? At 13b with no morale structures you are operating at 58ish percent morale with a 79% rate. All you need is to be over 40%, cranking up your morale for one week for government votes and offensive war declarations. At 16b you are at 43% with no morale buildings and a 79% rate. Still pretty good, and you are avoiding any possible revolts. Only at 17b and higher does it start to become necessary to move off of the 79% rate, and even then only by a point or two per billion population. And at 17b-20b, two morale buildings will easily take you from a 69% to a 79% tax rate. This is about the only scenario (i.e. range of 17b-20b) where morale buildings work, because you are trading +5% net bonus from two stock markets for +10% net bonus by being able to increase empire wide morale to 79%.

And morale bonus tiles don't help, because you can't set a seperate tax rate for each planet. Unless EVERY colony in my empire had a morale improvement tile, I can't figure that in to what my average planet uses. This is especially true if you are planning on managing 300+ colonies in your game. Micromanagement has to take a back seat at that level, even if you lose (a little) effectiveness. Or I suppose maybe you have endless amounts of time, I don't.

All this means is that overall empire morale bonus dictates population size much more than planet design and morale buildings. Currently, I would probably shoot for just 13b with no morale buildings with Yor, Torians, Terrans, Korx, Thalans and Custom races, 16b with no morale buildings for Drath, Drengin, Altarian, Arcean, Iconian and Korath, and 18b-20b with Krynn. And... it works! I'm testing it now, which was what my opening story was all about.

I still will always research the entertainment line, and early try to get to Zero G, because that gives you an empire bonus of +25, and ultra spices (so +40) and gravity accelerators. But after crunching the numbers I'm not going to be playing with morale buildings anymore. They don't have enough effect, and they take precious tiles, better used on stock markets. Or better used on anything that will actually have an impact on your empire's performance. I had just always used them, because if "felt" right, like I should. The numbers don't lie, however.

Just my choice. Please, no angry emails/responses about how ignorant I am and how your strategy that includes morale buildings is so obviously superior. Play how you like. I'm just describing how I am playing from now on.

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And morale bonus tiles don't help, because you can't set a seperate tax rate for each planet.

I still build on the bonus tiles. Sure, maybe they're not as useful as you might want, but a Zero G on a bonus tile still gives a healthy kick to morale. It's not just about the final morale when you reach 17B, it's about the 75% and 100% population growth bonuses getting there.

By the way, there's also the maintenance costs of morale buildings to consider.

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Me? I just open up the file and quadruple the power of moral buildings. They work just fine...

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Neilo

Join Date 04/2006

+128

I had learned that building anymore than 1 vr was not going to do my morale any good so i stopped building more than 1 some time ago. How much a factor are your morale resources in this scenario? How many do you have and are they maxed out, i assume they are, would no morale buildings be viable in a situation with little to no morale resources, because i find resources at times are counter productive, in that, when at war, the amount of money/time put into constuctors to always re-build them after AI destroys them could be far better used for military purposes.

As always Wyndstar, your insights into the game are excellent and quite thought provocative.

Me? I just open up the file and quadruple the power of moral buildings. They work just fine...

All well and good, but not worth a damn for Metaverse players.

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It's not just about the final morale when you reach 17B, it's about the 75% and 100% population growth bonuses getting there.

Oh, good point. I was making a few assumptions in my post. First off, it does not apply to early game. I would never start by putting my tax rate at 79%. It really applies after you have your +100% native morale. In the early game I was still building morale buildings, I'd throw an entertainment center on every morale tile I found to help the colony pop max out faster.

But generally, I have a "developing" template and a "finished" template that I modify as needed. When developing, you need more factories and morale buildings, to finish your structures and get your pop up. But I usually go back through and rebuild over at least 25% (if not more) of the tiles for a "finished" product. It is in these midgame/endgame worlds that I have forgone morale buildings.

The only other consideration to spend (waste?) time on morale buildings late is because approval effects score. You can get a higher score (in my testing) by taking the income hit and trading a lot of things to make less money. Economy can get you a lot of points, but it feels like at some point the value must be getting square rooted in final score. One of the things that seems to get you a fair amount of points is high approval throughout your game.

And we will see how it goes. I have one game under my belt with this strategy, and while it has worked great the system is not tried and true yet. I want to play around with a few more races and map setups to be sure my assumptions work out. But initial results have been very promising. Morale buildings later in the game are just inefficient.

Good luck!

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How much a factor are your morale resources in this scenario?

Very little, but you should adjust based on how many are in your game. The template for using this was set out by Mumblefratz:

25B+ = 500%
21B = 334%
20B = 250%
19B = 228%
16B = 193%
15B = 167%
13B = 150%
11B = 139%
10B = 130%
6B = 113%

And then modify by your race. You can get almost a 110% just from research and improvements. So say I was playing Torians... a +10% morale race. I can either put nothing into morale and get one resource to take me to a 156% which covers me for designing 13b pop planets, or I can boost my morale with ability points (perhaps government) to take me into the 146-156% range without resources, which also covers a 13b population. Probably I wouldn't take the government, and would just hope for a 4% increase from anamolies to take me from 146 to 150, and then cruise for my 13b from there.

But, say I'm playing torians, and I took +10% morale (so now looking at a base max of 130-140% based on alignment/research) and then I find 3 morale resources in the first year when I scout the map. Well, that means I could get to a 218% empire bonus, so I might well just design 16b pop worlds for my Torians.

The most flexibility is with the Krynn, who without resources can top a 190% morale. They essentially start the game able to effortlessly field 16b pops. Just two mining resources on a map will take the Krynn up into the 20b pop design range.

Hope that makes sense.

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Neilo

Join Date 04/2006

+128

Sure does. Haven't yet givin the Krynn a run in a Meta game, but i think i just might for my next one.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

25B+ = 500%
21B = 334%
20B = 250%
19B = 228%
16B = 193%
15B = 167%
13B = 150%
11B = 139%
10B = 130%
6B = 113%

This table is a conglomerate from DL, DA and the Wiki site. It appears that some of these data points are in doubt for DA. I definitely believe that the overall theory is absolutely correct, however, it would be a good idea for this table to be verified in it's entirety for DA. It might also be a good idea to mention which rev of DA this was for as well. Again, I don't think that the essence of the concepts are in doubt, but any conclusions based on precise numbers should be verified.

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The data I just ran, what yesterday, was using 1.5x.072 or whatever, the latest version of DA. I double checked my numbers so there would be no mistakes, but I did only check three population points. For DA, my testing showed:

11 billion = .72 base morale (so 139% needed to max)
16 billion = .52 base morale (so 193% needed to max)
21 billion = .30 base morale (so 334% needed to max)

All other points in the above chart did not come from me.

Hope that helps.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

Yes. These data points seemed to be consistent with the table in the Wiki and with those taken from DL so I *assumed* that they were all consistent. However, Magnumaniac came up with another three data points that contradict those I previously listed. The 13B number isn't that different than the one I listed but the 20B and in partuicular the 25B number are significantly different.

13B, 0.64 (-36%)
20B, 0.34 (-66%)
25B, 0.10 (-90%)

This changes the numbers you've used in your argument. If this 20B number is correct then the VRC doesn't give a 16% approval bonus at 20B it only gives a 13.6% bonus. From what I read of your argument this only makes it more valid not less, but I just wanted to caution folks from making conclusions from flawed data.

The 25B number is very significant. In DL that bottom end limit was 0.2, this halves BaseMorale which is used three times within the approval equation which makes 25B in DA even more ridiculus a goal than in DL. Also the effective limit of racial ability at 25B isn't 500% but becomes 1000%. I don't think you can get anywhere near the 1000%.

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Hi!

However, Magnumaniac came up with another three data points that contradict those I previously listed.

Different test race alignments (neutral / non-neutral)?

BTW in my money production test at that 25+B planet I remember VRCs giving only 4% increase in approval, so a base morale for that planet should be 10%. Now there's a discrepancy with my old knowledge: I remember reading that in DL the floor for base morale is 10%. But that's not consistent with my test:
- the test race was Drengin with evil alignment, so no bonus from alignment,
- planet class was 18, so it had +10% to approval from planet quality.

According to VRCs giving only 10% of their ability, then the floor for base morale in DA should be 0% , not 10% as I remember for DL.

I need to test that.

BR, Iztok

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

Different test race alignments (neutral / non-neutral)?

Unknown. Doubt it because Neutral bonus would have been in the other direction. Mag's points DA points were not the same as Wyndstar's, so Mag's points only contradicted points from DL (or Wiki) that I'd assumed were consistent. Again another assumption I would have normally made was that the Neutral bonus wouldn't be included in BaseMorale, but who knows.

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Yeah, I'm currently playing neutral, and neutral does not add an unmodified 10%. I just checked a couple of worlds on my neutral game that were below 100% approval, and the totals add up exactly per the formula Mumblefratz and I layed out. I don't remember if Xeno Ethics adds 10% on its own, but Neutral either adds +10% or +20% overall, because when I choose neutral as an alignment on the turn I finish Xeno Ethics, my EMPIRE morale jumps 20%.

I agree the added info blows away my earlier (incorrect) assumption that morale resources were not useful, they were just not useful for me because of the low populations I was dealing with. But it seems unlikely you could get over a +1000% even on a gigantic map.

The only thing about the cap, is once you get over it, you are over it. It will not be efficient from a tax perspective (heck, I might not even build stock markets on this world), but it might be fun just to make a world with the highest pop you can manage. I figure with a 59% tax rate it would only take you like 26VR centers to manage a 60% approval (with a 200% empire morale modifier) on 25B+, so I could turn a 28PQ+ world into a total farm world. Would finally be a good setup for a +300% food tile. Say, without bonuses a PQ 32 could go to a pop of 41 (colony, 5 adv farms, 26 VRs)... but what I would want is like a PQ 35+, again, no stock markets (this isn't for money, just for fun) - for a pop that could still breed and be around 60 billion.

At the same time, think about the income you are sacrificing for a completely useless high pop trophy world. I shudder to think. A PQ 35 could be a +800% income planet...

If this 20B number is correct then the VRC doesn't give a 16% approval bonus at 20B it only gives a 13.6% bonus. From what I read of your argument this only makes it more valid not less

Yeah, so 2 farms and one morale building only works at the one pop level of 17b, where you can then move your tax rate from 69% to 72%, but you would need EVERY world to be at 17b or 16b. Doable with the +5 farm, but if most of your planets are 16b you should be running at 79% not 72%.

And two farms, two morale buildings can't take you from 69% to 79% at 20b, they can only take you to 74%, so its a wash. You are losing 5% income from the loss of markets and only gaining 5% from the tax increase... so again, no reason to use morale buildings.

All the added data from Magnumanic (thanks Mag!) only makes it so the few areas I saw potential for morale buildings were because of flawed data. They are actually never efficient ever, ever, ever (in DA). The ONLY reason to use them is to try and boost score if you are playing a metaverse game. And again, this will only really work well on smaller pop planets (say 13b with one VR center would be a decent scoring setup, although a less efficient planet setup if your empire morale bonus is over 156%... which in my games I find is an easy number to surpass). In fact, it is a worse economy setup at 13b, because you still can't go to 82% tax, so you are only placing that VR center for meta score.

AND tetleytea was right to bring up that there is ALSO an upkeep cost to take into account for morale buildings. And I'm even giving morale buildings the benefit of only considering VR centers. Imagine a world trying to do anything worthwhile with multimedia centers, or something else. Ug.

On my second game now since I started the no morale buildings test (Altarians this time) and it is still working like a charm. The numbers really don't lie, and Stardock gave us all the information we needed to work this out in game.

Ah well. Hope this helps some of you out there.

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One thing to consider about the Empire-wide morale bonuses is that the wiki says that is taken to the 0.75 power. That nerfs empire-wide morale bonuses to a small extent, but it also hurts you less if you don't have very many bonuses.

It looks to me like what's going on is, the native morale ability*base morale is always equal or less than 100%, or 1. That means you're "square rooting" a number that's less than 1, which makes the number bigger. So say you're native morale (adjusted for base morale) is 10%. Taken to the .75 power, that's 17%. 80% becomes 84%. 90% becomes 92%.

Kind of complicated, isn't it? This is, of course, assuming the wiki is anywhere near accurate.

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Taken to the .75 power

I'm pretty sure that is DL only. In DA they removed this modification, so you are just dealing with the flat numbers.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

The NativeMorale 'formula' for DL and DA are both different from that last posted in the Wiki. The modified formulas fit the data extremely well.

For DL v1.4 it's:

NativeMorale = BaseMorale^0.8 * MoraleAbility^0.5

For DA v1.5 it's:

NativeMorale = BaseMorale * MoraleAbility

However, NativeMorale is 'capped' at 100% in DA v1.5.

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Also there's the 1bc upkeep cost to Stock Markets. That more-or-less nullifies about half the 5% bonus you get over banks, but you're getting 5% influence in return. If you want to consider purely the money, a fairer comparison might be with banks, not SM's. I usually don't even bother researching SM anyway, unless it's for the influence.

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MarvinKosh

Join Date 08/2005

+87

The problem with morale buildings is that having approval really high doesn't really impact your empire when you no longer need to increase your population. In MOO2 at least, happy workers were more productive workers, so it was worth it to bag all the morale improvements.

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Maybe there should be production bonuses for high morale then?

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this is a very interesting discussion. i usually play as a star federation, and try to keep my morale at 70% or so.

i usually play with all planets at 18b (6+6+6 or 12+6) with 1 VR center, and stay above 75% approval. i'm wondering how high my morale would be without them, and i'm also wondering if just over 60% is enough morale to maintain my political party bonus undera dem. gov't. (i never let it get that low).

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You would see about a 16% drop in morale per world, so they would still breed. You only need a 60% for all forms of government (I usually play Federation), AND only on the individual week when a vote takes place.

Once you no longer require your pops to breed, you can run at a 41% and then up to a 60% on turns that votes take place for maximum income.

Hope that helps.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

i usually play as a star federation, and try to keep my morale at 70% or so.

Actually, I think it's already been mentioned somewhere in the thread but there's no need to keep your approval up all the time. In the Civilization Manager in I think it's called the Government screen where your political party is listed there's a countdown that indicates how many weeks until the next election. You need to keep track of this but you can easily keep your approval low (like in the 40% range) and then just lower your taxes to raise your approval for the week of the election.

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Mumblefratz - jynx! Great minds think alike, fools rarely differ...

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

Great minds think alike, fools rarely differ...

So which are we?

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you know, i'd always thought about that (spiking taxes on non-election weeks), but usually i'm too lazy to actually do it. i'll have to give it a try, maybe get myself up another difficulty notch.

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you know, i'd always thought about that (spiking taxes on non-election weeks), but usually i'm too lazy to actually do it.

That's about the only reason I don't do it - all of Wyndstar's and Mumble's work proves that morale buildings are completely useless. I just keep 1 on each 13B planet to keep approval in the green, so that I don't forget to change taxes and end up losing an election. Also supposedly helps the social component of the score - but I don't know for sure.

I've spent most of today (at work

) working out a) if there is any possible way to get more income from a 20B planet build, and still maintain a 70%+ approval - and the answer is a resounding no, you just lose too much from reduced tax rate and fewer stock markets.

is it possible to get above the 25B threshold whilst still maintaining a tax rate that can support your empire - and the answer to that one just laughed me out of the galaxy!

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