Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

Wow have the econ and research treaties changed

AIs are definitely not neglecting them now!

I'm still not entirely comfortable with the one-way nature of the "treaties" DA adds to the diplo page, but that might be a modern expectation that treaties are mutually beneficial by definition (this system seems like submitting to tribute demands, not signing a treaty).

Pet peeve aside, I'm at a point in my first beta 2 huge-map game that is close to the same phase in my 1A games when I went out and pretty much stole all the tribute treaties in sight. The Treaties tab of the Diplo page looks *very* different (I'd post a cap of my Treaties tab if I didn't have to bother with a third party.)

I always play with 9 rivals and no one has been destroyed or surrendered yet. I have no tribute treaties, but there are 4 different mutual-exchange pairs among 5 different AIs. Whether or not I can persuade the devs about my language point, it appears that the AIs might be fundamentally inclined to think of these as "economic exchange" and "research exchange" treaties. Which I admit is a semi-backwards way of asking for both what I've complained about and what I thought I wanted...

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

Am I the only one who cares about these treaties? I was hoping at least to get some short-game observations, even if no one wants to help me rant about or let go of my twitch about the one-way thing.

I haven't gotten very far in a Beta 2 game yet, but in my latest one I think I've figured out that the best thing to trade for a given treaty is its counterpart, which didn't seem at all so in 1A. If the AIs are going to have a significant bias towards treaty-for-treaty exchanges, that seems like a very good idea to me.

Environment techs seem to be the second most persuasive offer (aside from unreasonable piles of cash). Please share some observations, folks.

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I'll chime in on the treaties. I like the idea but think there should be a little more control over them. Even just something as simple as setting the duration of the treaty would be useful. The few games I've played the AI seems to latch onto these things and will not let them go short of manipulating the two sides into war with each other which at times is more difficult then it is worth. Also I haven't quite nailed down the rules for what exactly I'm sending them versus what they are sending me. I know the couple of economic treaties I got boosted my BCs by a couple of hundred. That is no small amount early in the game. Research is a little fuzzier but only because it is a little harder to track down the exact amount of RP being produced empire wide.

It would be nice if treaties were something like:
I'll give you X bc for 100 weeks and you give me Y rp.
or
I'll give you X rp for 125 weeks and you give me Y bc.

Treaties might be explained better in the manual (why would I read that?!??

) but in game they are just something more to ask for in the diplo screen.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

Research is a little fuzzier but only because it is a little harder to track down the exact amount of RP being produced empire wide.

You can see the breakdown of your spending vs. treaties just below the title bar of the Research page.

Also I haven't quite nailed down the rules for what exactly I'm sending them versus what they are sending me

AFAIK, the treaties are one-way. When the arrow points to you, you get X (percentage?) of the tributary empire's income or research. When you give a treaty, you are giving away X. I'd also like the UI to make that a bit more clear regardless of what's in the manual.

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When you give a treaty, you are giving away X

You don't lose anything--they just get a bonus out of thin air when you give them the treaty.

Last I heard the percentage was 10%, I believe (for both treaties).

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D'oh! Thx G.W. for pointing that out. I would never have spotted that since the meat of that screen is the bottom.

Thx Kryo for the info. I've been avoiding giving away a treaty because I thought I'd then be losing something especially when I'm the larger of the two empires.

Any plans on the *out of thin air* part changing or is that just the way it is?

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I think the "out of thin air" approach makes sense as it is. If I ask my scientists to send some of their findings over to a friendly race once in a while, that would help my friends without diminishing any of the work they're doing for me.

As for the economic bonus, just think of it like passing trade policies which are favorable to the target government. Time is money, so simply waving their cargo and tourist vessels through customs rather than subjecting them to a thorough screening could easily benefit their race without any cost to yours.

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I agree AA those explinations make sense. I'd just prefer to have a bit more control over them. That's all

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

I've kept thinging, and the "out of thin air" thing makes some sense to me for the research treaty, but how do you give someone else's economy a boost at no cost to your own?

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Specialty trade goods, luxury items... countries do this all the time.. like USA and Russia, send us some Smirnoff (vodka) and we'll send over some Levi's (jeans).

It's kind of hard to use that kind of analogy on alien species as there may be too many appendages to fit in jeans, or alcohol have no effect. But there are/ can be things one race make that other race wants too.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

send us some Smirnoff (vodka) and we'll send over some Levi's (jeans)

That's still exchange, not "out of thin air." Or am I missing something?

p.s. Smirnoff's not a Russian brand (at least since the Russian Revolution), and is pretty wretched vodka

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It's an oddity, because really, the best way to describe it is a treaty that reduces the red-tape and broadens the profit margins for the trade good. However, that is based on the assumption that some trade already occurs once contact begins.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

Reiella, your reply #11 makes me vaguely remember some stuff I read about gift economies, but IIRC that stuff was about relationships between modest communities among archipelagos, not competing empires.

I'm still left wondering why the benefit is a flat 10% per recipient, regardless of who's on the "donor" side of the treaty.

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