Dano13

Join Date 03/2003

My Thoughts on the Espionage System

Here are my thoughts on the Espionage System so far.

The Espionage System is okay (The little spy icon though with the fedora is VERY cool. Kudos to whoever designed it), but its nothing really revolutionary. I know this is just a beta, and this is why I am posting my thoughts here. These are suggestions, not complaints.

Of course - in all fairness, when was the last time that you played a game with a REVOLUTIONARY espionage system? They all boil down to the same thing. I get a number of spies and either put them on attack or defense. When on the attack, they do bad things to the enemy. The enemy tries to do the same to me. That's it. Spies either work too little mischief (when viewed from the empire perspective) in which case they are useless, or too much in which case they are overpowered.

Sure I would love a James Bond flavour to my ideal spy system. In my fantasies spies would come with their own strengths and weaknesses (kind of like the generals in Rome Total War). I would outfit them with slick gadgets and send them on their missions. Then I would read field reports of their brave exploits, narrow escapes or ... alas - their capture and or death.

When I capture spies I can Interrogate them, Execute them or do a Spy Exchange. There would be a myriad of missions that my spies could go on ranging from assassination, to destroying facilites, terrorism, capturing research, destroying star bases or grabbing ships. But honestly, this is only my ideal system and it would be damned hard to program this.

More realistically, I think the key to making espionage interesting is that it needs to touch another level of the game, and lets face it - when it comes to ultimate levels of the game the political battlefield is god.

So here is what I propose:

1) Spies can either be Active or "Laying Low". They only work their mischief when they are active, but are easier to catch. But catching a spy is not just a factor of how many opponent spies are working security. Its also a matter of the opponents internal security. Internal Security is a slider that can be set on the Domestic Tab. At high levels its nearly impossible for spies to work their mischief, but at the cost of lowered approval, trade income, economic modifiers and most importantly on the IMPROVING of diplomatic relations on other races. So ... If I am the evil JiggyBobs, and am concerned on the growing closeness between the Altarian and Torian sissies, then I can send in the spies. The actual havoc that they wreck is only a secondary objective. I am trying to force these two to increase their security to at least slow down the hug-athon that is going to happen between these two.

2) I think that counter spying should be inversely proportional to how "Big" your empire is. Not only is this realistic, but it prevents espionage from being just another hammer for powerful races to whack those less powerful.

3) I think that landing spies on planets should be a non trivial matter. The factors working against such infiltration should be a combination of the following: Number of military ships in orbit, Number of facilities on the planet (i.e. the beuracracy), Counter Espionage, Internal Security, and that race's influence in that sector. Factors that make it easier to infiltrate a planet would be a combination of the following: Spy level (I think Spies should gain levels), my relations with the race (the closer we are the easier they are to trick), my influence in the area, and most importantly ... whether I have a trade route to the planet. So if there is a manufacturing capital that I absolutely need to sabotage, but can't infiltrate then I have several options. I could put a trade route to the planet, build an influence starbase, or act really friendly to improve relations. Similarly, if they take a planet that has HUGE bonuses on it, then it will be important to land a spy on it while it is in development, rather than trying to after. If I discover that a certain race is causing a lot of havoc to me with their spies, then I can deliberately poison relations, or declare an embargo making it harder for them to land future spies.

4) Lastly, I think that if spies had the ability to poison relations between races this would definitely make things more fun. Of course this should be fairly difficult to do since its so powerful. Also, perhaps the person would need to spend extra money or influence to initiate such a mission. The spy would finance or start terrorist groups that despise the other race and spread racial hatred propoganda. If someone is doing this to me, then on the relations description it should show "Third Party Poisoning" or perhaps "Radicalism".

5) There should be a chance that when I catch a spy, I can identify who sent them. When someone catches my spies and determines their origin my relations should definitely take a hit, though this should be fairly rare, otherwise espionage will be too risky to use.

Anyway, these are my thoughts - though I imagine getting this whole level of strategy to work with the AI could take way too much time and effort.

Dano

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Great suggestions. Having a little more depth for the spies would be great.

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I was thinking something along those lines too would be heaps of fun. The espionage feature now is good, but it could be even better! It might be possible to do something like your 'James Bond' type spy, if the spies actions were treated as a kind of ethical event/planet colonization event (similar code), but giving only bad options to the owning race and also giving the message to the player, so they can see what havok their spy is causing. Although the spies would have to be much rarer or else it would be overpowered. Perhaps after a certain amount of time, a spy that appears will be a 'super-spy', with the chance of appearing being affected by the espionage trait,the creativity trait (spies need to be creative right? Also, to make the trait actually do something concrete!) and how much funding you are putting in. You only get maybe a few in a long game, so they are very rare. You could only have one super-spy at a time (who has a name/you can name him like a hero) who you assign to a planet like a regular agent, who then gives them various negative events. The super-spy will then either be killed, captured or retire after a certain amount of time. Could also help disrupt planetary defenders when invading the system. I remember in the character design contest Brad posting something about a Terran agent helping the Drengin fight the Korath? A super spy would be a great way to go to represent this guy!

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I haven't tried using my spies yet, but here are a couple of things that have me confused:

1) Isn't seeing the planet when you try to place a spy some kind of mistake? You can't see the planet by just clicking on it unless you have hit the required espionage level.

2) Re espionage levels, how can you build up your general info without the aggressive(?) move of placing a spy on an asset? Is there something like Dano13's "lay low" mode that I haven't spotted?.

I think these things might be related, in that separating agent insertion from agent activation could be a swell idea, or if something like that exists, the features need to be more obvious in the UI.

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I'd really like to see researchable espionage related techs.

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I was just thinking about the subject too, but Dano13 has put the subject really well! If DA would get a espionage system like this, it would be heaps of fun.

I especially like these ideas:

1) Internal security slider. Currently I don´t like the way you have to nullify agents with other agents. Instead Internal security slider would be a god send. More agents working on internal security the better the chances would be to capture enemy spies. Spies combined with internal security slider/funding would determine how well countering spys would go. And way less micromanagement! Excelent stuff!

2) When you catch a spy, there should be a chance to know who send him. At the moment its pretty much a guess game.

The other points are really good too, I just think the above are most important ones. One point I would like to add. I think a spy totally disabling a building is bit too much. I think they should eat up some % of building productivity instead. Maybe super spy ability could do more harm than your basic spy?

The idea of espionage research would fit this system like a glove. With better espionage skill spies would not be caught so easily. You woul need to research espionage to catch spies better and also make them more efficient while doing active duty on other planets. Maybe even throw spies some characteristics like experience. Have a tough war ahead of you? Send in your veteran one led eyed and half motorized Yor spy into the fray to disable enemy manufacturing capital.

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2nd the notion of espionage techs.

And I *really* want to know if there's a way to get the general intel that the old system provided without harming your diplo status with the AIs.

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The current spy system is a micro managment nightmare (IMHO).
First the problems;

Even before I have trained a single spy, as long as I can see a foreign planet, I can see all of their planets. Click on the planet and click spy.

After a while it doesn`t matter how much money you spend on epionage (2880 bc in one game), you cannot keep up with foreign spys. I know there will be further balancing.

Every turn (6 apponents) I get 2-3 spy insertions .I manage 1 every 5 or so turns.

Spy insertion needs somthing like the colony screen. (if the current system stays)

Personaly I would like to see each planet train individual spys, using manufacturing bc to fund them. Then they would either stay to protect the planet or you could send them off into enemy lands.
You could give them broad tasks i.e. economy or production etc.
The more inserted spies the more espionage, ala Galciv2.

And I would also like to see espionage techs.

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I think gigantic-map games might be really different in terms of AI spy use. I got near the end of my colony rush with a build 1 game and am not too far from a similar point in my 1A game, and I have yet to see a spy placed in my empire.

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Spy Techs would be a nice touch, ie Spy School.

Plus if you wipe out an AI the spy are wiped to like ships and such are.

I have noticed in the 3 games i have played so that if i don't place spies the AI never places one on my planets.

But in a game where i did use spies the AI was far out producing me.
I had wiped out all other factions and was down to one AI and on a couple turns it produced 2 spies at once. At the end of that game i had 22 spies on my few planets and i could not make spies fast enough to get rid of them.

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I've removed my post and moved it to my own thread.

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I don't know why, but I really like the idea of an "Internal Security" slider. Oddly it's the idea that's most appealed to me of all the ones I've seen in a _long_ time of lurking on these forums.

Unlike the other sliders, it wouldn't cost anything - it would just represent your civilization's policies, and it would really add a tricky and interesting strategic choice. Should your civilization be open and friendly, encouraging trade, diplomacy and public approval, but leaving it open to crippling spy attacks? Or should you implement a lockdown, with martial law making spying almost impossible, but also making trade and diplomacy very difficult and damaging public morale?

Could be really cool.

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Very interesting thoughts on changes to espionage. I particularly like the idea of the "Internal Security" slider. In it's present state espionage is too much like playing a game of "Whack-a-mole".

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Sir_On_The_Edge

Join Date 07/2006

All the spies need are specific tasks (missions) which take a certain amount of time, depending on the difficulty of the task and the amount of money the opponent is spending on espionage at the time the more successful the spy will be.

After the mission the spy could be reused with experience, making future (more advanced) missions more successful but also coursing a bigger loss when you finally loose him.

When he is spotted the opponent gets a choice, send in a spy to find out what the other spy is up to (low fatality rate) or to take out the other spy (medium fatality rate but the attacker has an advantage due to the advanced knowledge).

Another way of dealing with detection is to allocate spies to specific planets. It would be good way of making spies a better option for small races.

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I'm sure the devs are busy beyond reason, but I think the spy system talk from the beta testers might gain a lot if we had a bit of Stardock input, especially if anyone can lay out some broad parameters about what cannot change before RTM and what might be able to change.

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I love the idea of an internal security funding...sort of like funding an internal police service, and the more money you give them, the more oppressive they become. Oppressive police will route out spies pretty quickly, but at the cost of approval from the citizens...think the Gustapo marching into houses and rounding up everyone they suspect to be a spy. But a more lax funding means the police are fewer in number, and less likely to act against possible threats. Sure, they'll still turn up one or two every so often, but typically foreign spies would have the run of the empire.

Also, a spy tech tree would be an excellent idea. It would give the player, and the opponents a chance to beef up their spies to make them harder to capture, and also allow for options to spot enemy spies more quickly.

I don't have the beta yet, I just pre-ordered the game, and haven't gotten around to downloading the beta, so I'm not sure how they would work entirely, but I think they should be able to infiltrate infrastructure (to disable planetary improvements or outright destroy them), social (to incite people to revolt against the current regime, or even to cause the entire planet to defect to another empire), research (to steal research points, or entire technologies from another civilization).

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Excellent ideas Dano13!

I especially like your suggestions about having an internal security slider, spies gaining levels and the 'active' and 'lay low' options. An espionage tech tree would be great as well. IMO Stardock should really think about implementing those ideas in an update or the next expansion (I doubt they would have the time to include them in DA).

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I agree with most posts here.

I REALLY don't like the changes to the Espionage system, for basically all the reasons listed above.

1- too hard to get basic info about other reaces.
2- no way to get info without taking 'aggressive' action of using a spy on their stuff
3- takes too long to get spies
4- because of how long it takes to get spies, takes too long to get opposition info
5- because of how long it takes to get spies, is overly difficult to counter-espionage

I like most of the improvements suggested above, particularly the internal security slider. In the same manner, I would like to see the previous espionage system returned as a 'passive espionage' slider against other races, using only the agents as 'active espionage'.

But yeah, I used to bump espionage all the time pre-expansion, now I hardly ever use it at all. Just too much work for too little reward with too much aggression risk.

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Foley, you've pretty much written the post that I was intending to write. Thanks.

After a few games of DA, I'm bothered by the difficulty and contradictions of getting good intel. This is especially the case when it comes to friendly civs, whom I would rather not actively hurt simply so that I can find out what they're up to. I'm also really wishing for a hybrid of the DA and DL espionage systems, such as you described here:

In the same manner, I would like to see the previous espionage system returned as a 'passive espionage' slider against other races, using only the agents as 'active espionage'.

This is not to say that I don't like the new "aggressive" espionage. It's great to hinder my enemies without going to war with them. I just feel like DA has put aside passive spying in favor of more aggressive activities.

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I basically agree with posts 17 and 18, but it seems that the devs are in bug-crushing mode. I don't think we should hold our breath for a way to split espionage spending between "offense and defense" (or however you like to label the categories). Software can't stay in beta forever, at least if you want to see large numbers of people using it.

But even though I *really* want to see NotMoM2, I'm also tempted to try immediately starting a begging campaign for what to include in the first major DA update. The intel vs. covert action problem is my #1 concern.

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My thought on Espionage: come on, they're aliens. I'm not exactly worried about alien squirrels infiltrating my civilian population and stealing all my secrets. I don't think espionage should be all that involved, and it definitely shouldn't be spy-based. It should be high-tech based, possibly augmented by researching Sensor IV. That's how you perform espionage: you put a spy probe on that neighboring class-0 planet, not plant E.T. in the Pentagon.

I remember the opening episode of the original Battlestar Galactica, where the Cylons used a human traitor to do alien espionage on the humans. I didn't find that very believable even then (the new Battlestar Galactica I don't find believable, period, but that's a different discussion...).

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I'm also tempted to try immediately starting a begging campaign for what to include in the first major DA update.

I'll second beginning a begging campaign. Possibly a bribing campaign too. To whom do I write the check?

Seriously, the current state of the espionage system is my biggest worry with DA. It's the only feature that, if not handled correctly, threatens to be less entertaining than its DL precursor. Everything else, at least from the playtesting I've done, is shaping up pretty nicely.

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FortyTwo, I appreciate the second but I was pretty deliberate about the word "begging" b/c I don't earn a great deal and I'm *really* interested in what Stardock will do when they set to work on NotMoM2 (the fantasy TBS yet to be named). If we're lucky, we'll benefit from the fact that Stardock devs are also players.

I'm also conflicted about whether the Stardock Boosters Club should work to get more paying customers for our dear devs. The software industry is sadly littered with examples of heavy cash flows warping (or outright destroying) once-excellent product lines, e.g. Office, MoO3, and the latest HoMM (4?).

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I like just about every idea mentioned in this thread. Especially the idea that spying on larger empires should be easier. After all, almost every rag-tag band of rebels resorts to covert ops when fighting an evil empire.

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