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Join Date 03/2006

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Default Systems Comprehensive Modification Pack (DSCMP)

Revamping the default system

Aloha!

It has been some time since I have done any mod work for GCII because I was waiting for the 1.2 release and because of family and work demands as well as a commitment to a very large project for another game title. However due to seasonal changes in business I find I have a few more hours free. So I decided to pick up where I left off. The working title for the project is Default Systems Comprehensive Modification Pack (DSCMP) - I'll try to think of a shorter one.

This primary purpose of this project is to serve as an optional default system for players. It is being meticulously developed to a very high degree of perfection with a core focus on game balance and depth of play within hard coded limitations. It is also being comprehensively tested through the development process. The project is being developed in three (3) phases. They are:

Phase I
1. Planetary System (done - needs more testing)
2. Ability System (done - needs more testing)
3. Political System (working on it)

Phase II
4. Race Configuration (Started preliminary work)
5. Version 1.3 Update Integration

Phase III
6. Tech Tree
7. Anomalies
8. Starbase Modules
9. Planet Improvements

Today I have been working on the political party system. I made an indexed table of the parties with their bonuses, penalties and opposition party and was amazed to find things seemed whacked.

For example the table shows that the Industrialists & Universalists have no opposing parties and that the Pacifists & Technologists each have two opposing parties. Moreover the big shocker was that nearly all the penalties negate the given bonuses. I have tried to find comments from Brad before as to why this is so but I did not have any luck. Nonetheless, I will assume these are mistakes (until told otherwise) and start reengineering the system.

Also if anyone interested in working with me on this project that would be great!

BTW: In case anyone is wondering my prior mini projects were the Universalistic Ability Bonuses (UAB) & Balanced Custom Planets (BCP) releases.

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(Please note: I am doing a reply instead of an edit because the format of my first post is messed up for some reason. It is showing all as one paragraph to me.)

Anyway I developed a provisional matrix for the default parties. The parameters I used are as follows:

Primary bonus at 30%
Secondary bonus at 20%
Tertiary bonus at 10%
Primary penalty at 20%
Secondary penalty at 10%
Tertiary penalty at 5%

I diametrically opposed the primary bonus for the opposition party. Although it appears that the penalty aspect of the system is not enabled in the current version of the game or it is only enabled if your political party looses control of your government. If the later is the case then I will need to make the penalty aspect match the bonus. This would explain why the penalties listed in the default system are the same as the bonus except they are not 100% identical.

Anyway the current specks are:

Federalists: Loyalty 30%, Courage 20%, Hit Points 10%
Populists: Morale 30%, Sensors 20%, Propulsion 10%
War Party: Soldiering 30%, Weapons 20%, Defense 10%
Pacifists: Diplomacy 30%, Planet Quality 20%, Population Growth 10%
Technologists: Research 30%, Creativity 20%, Luck 10%
Mercantile: Trade 30%, Economics 20%, Trade Routes 1
Industrialists: Espionage 30%, Social Production 20%, Military Production 10%
Universalists: Influence 30%, Repair 20%, Range 1

The opposition parties are:

Federalists & Mercantile
Populists & Universalists
War Party & Pacifists
Technologists & Industrialists

Note: that the Trade Route is listed as a % in game but I think it should be a number like the Range variable.

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That's pretty cool. I've always thought that the political parties needed a revamp, but I myself don't mod.

It's still not balanced (Pacifists and War Party would be godly, Technologists have gone down to moderate at best, and Federalists and Industrialists wouldn't be worth taking), but I'd take it over the current.

My idea for a revamp was similar to yours, but I would have assigned each party a certain number of points from the attribute list to make it balanced. For example, you gave the Federalists 6 points of abilities and the Pacifists 12, with the 6 (excepting HP) being useless and the 12 being horribly powerful. I would just have done 8 (or maybe 5) points per party.

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It is difficult to which bonus to give the parties relative to the others as the bonus list is heavy in some areas that are not relevant to the type of political party system.

The list is as follows:

Ability Index (ID)
Economics 0
Weapons 1
Defense 2
Propulsion 3
Morale 4
Population Growth 5
Social Production 6
Military Production 7
Research 8
Influence 9
Trade 10
Diplomacy 11
Hit Points 12
Repair 13
Sensors 14
Espionage 15
Soldiering 16
Interest Rates 17
Planet Quality 18
Trade Routes 19
Range 22
Luck 23
Courage 24
Creativity 25
Loyalty 27
Logistics 28
Miniaturization 29

Currently in testing the system I have had to expand into modifying the races. For example in my current test game I defined star systems for all the minor races. So far they are now "players" I am very pleased with the preliminary results. I have also assigned them political parties and will add racial abilities as the default set up is basically nothing but econ +100% with the exception of the Akilians and token development for the Dread Lords.

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looks like a good mod, i wish you luck, and by the way, vould you post your trade route line, as i did a bit of altering to the political parties and my trade routes display correctly... i think.

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Hmmmm... I cant edit my posts and the first post changes everytime I come back to the thread - something strange is going on here.

Anyway, I added the following political parties today.

1. Totalitarian: Military Production 30%, Loyalty 20%, Soldiering 10%
2. Expansionist: Propulsion 1 ParS/M, Range +1 sct, Sensors +1 ParS
3. Imperialists: Military Production 30%, Espionage 20%, Economics 10%
4. Isolationists: Planet Quality 30%, Defense 20%, Morale 10%

The opposition parties are:

Totalitarian & Imperialists
Expansionist & Isolationists

I did so because I wanted a unique party for each race.

I also changed Industrialists to the following:
Social Production 30%, Miniaturization 20%, Espionage 10%

The game is playing better now but I'm still not happy with the variations and testing each one is getting rather time consuming (as expected). If any one has some concrete ideas please feel free to make them known. I'm only using the 30/20/10 concept as I figured it would be the most reasonable.

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Sounds sweet Spartan! This could be the thing that keeps us gaming untill DA

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DreadArchon - I would have assigned each party a certain number of points from the attribute list to make it balanced. For example, you gave the Federalists 6 points of abilities and the Pacifists 12, with the 6 (excepting HP) being useless and the 12 being horribly powerful. I would just have done 8 (or maybe 5) points per party.

The difficulty in doing such things is balance as some abilities have exponential impact, others are situational based and yet others have marginal or scaled application.

I believe the real questions what value should be placed on what abilities. In order to make things more clear I have divided all the abilities into three (3) core groups [see list below]. So the question becomes one of city/planet vs. government/race vs. unit allocation and the weight of each.

To illustrate my point it sort of feels to me that the 30/20/10 system I am currently using in some test games seems to fail to adequately address this question in terms of robust and challenging game play that feels finely tuned and dynamic with a solid sense of equilibrium. With the current system I broke things down based on archetype concepts for a given party. I then selected the assumed best primary ability and subordinates. I did not consider the category/group approach as a determinate factor. However I am starting to believe it is likely the best approach.

Does anyone have ideas on this issue?

1. City/Planet
Economics 0
Morale 4
Population Growth 5
Social Production 6
Military Production 7
Research 8
Trade 10
Planet Quality 18
Loyalty 27

2. Government/Race
Influence 9
Interest Rates 17
Diplomacy 11
Espionage 15
Trade Routes 19
Luck 23
Creativity 25
Courage 24
Logistics 28

3. Unit
Weapons 1
Defense 2
Propulsion 3
Hit Points 12
Repair 13
Sensors 14
Soldiering 16
Range 22
Miniaturization 29

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Looks pretty good so far. If you need any help to speed things along just let me know as I have some free time on my hands.

But in my opinion, it would seem to me that 30/20/10 could throw some things out of whack for things to be balanced. I wouldn't know what the correct procedure of fixing this would be unless you wanted to get very tedious in trying different combinations out.

However, the categories that you have placed everything in seems logical and would work out fine.

Keep it up!

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Tasty Gerbil - But in my opinion, it would seem to me that 30/20/10 could throw some things out of whack for things to be balanced.

That was my point. I based it on the default system and simply limited the limited number of bonuses added a weighted value for each one in order of priority.

I think the groups should also have a limited weighted relationship or tier value regarding it dependant variables. For example if we do something like a "class" rank system (A,B,C) for each category we would get something that appears more "balanced" at least terms of affects on the race. Moreover establish a level (1,2,3) within each tier relative to the category in order to further clarify value to the most precise level possible. Please see the Class & Tier Rank list [below] for specifics.

This method seems intrinsically more reasonable and evenhanded then the conventional method which is seemingly haphazard and inherently flawed.

With this type of system in place we can then assign a specific number of values for each group and class to be used when selecting abilities for political parties.

Class & Tier System

1. City/Planet

A1. Planet Quality 18
A2. Economics 0
A3. Research 8
B1. Military Production 7
B2. Social Production 6
B3. Population Growth 5
C1. Morale 4
C2. Loyalty 27
C3. Trade 10

2. Government/Race
A1. Logistics 28
A2. Influence 9
A3. Diplomacy 11
B1. Trade Routes 19
B2. Espionage 15
B3. Creativity 25
C1. Courage 24
C2. Luck 23
C3. Interest Rates 17

3. Unit
A1. Hit Points 12
A2. Miniaturization 29
A3. Range 22
B1. Weapons 1
B2. Defense 2
B3. Soldiering 16
C1. Propulsion 3
C2. Repair 13
C3. Sensors 14

As to your offer of help my MSN is spartan@thetrivium.org. if you use it please feel free to add me to your list and lets see what we can work out.

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Looking forward to this one

Feel free to post the minor race changes as a mod on its own for the time being as i would love to see the minors expand some more etc

Thanks and keep it up buddy!!

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Feel free to post the minor race changes as a mod on its own for the time being

Sadly I need to finish the political parties for that to be possible with any meaningful application. Moreover I have not really changed them much from the default at present other them assigning political parties.

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Damn

Oh well guess i will have to be patient and wait for the full mod then

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A brief update: After over 10 hours of work on things today I finished the revision to the Ability Bonuses. I'll update my UAB mod file in the library shortly with it for others to test. Currently we are starting work on the racecon aspect. I will also be doing some more work on the political system sometime tonight.

Some notes: There is a mistake is mod guide as abilities options limited to 4. I could have sworn it was more before but hay it has been a couple months. Additionally, the first logistics option set to 6 points for 0 cost due to game handling issue.

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Another update-

Spartan and I have been spending several hours working on organizing Race specs, abilities, and what not for preperation of the Mod. Development is expected to start shortly provided everything is in order and no further changes need to be made with the new systems we plan to implement.

Balance is key in this Mod and so far the default systems don't seem up to par in that area. The default data tables are made and are already being changed by the time you read this to a more well-balanced system. We'll be sure to coordinate our work with the release of the 1.3 patch as well.

Keep your eyes open for further updates.

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Things are progressing nicely we have finished all the basic data matrix's and fully developed our ability and penalty system.

Currently we are in the process of establishing new variable sets for each race, both major and minor, as well as political parties and star systems.

We will also release our default data matrix for the community as stand alone PDF and Excel workbook files, so others can use it/them as a quick reference resource for mod projects.

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UPDATE

Political Parties are now developed and balanced! We also added four new parties to boot.

Now we are in the process of going through the races from scratch and giving them their own Race Bonuses as well as Race Penalties.

After the Major Races are done, then come the Minor Races who will be revamped to have a larger impact on gameplay.

Any ideas or requests, just ask.

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Update: Sorry guys. I was very busy with work and family the past couples day and on top of that I got a cold. So I have not done anything since the last update by Gerbil.

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UPDATE

Race Specs are done and are now under review! Once the beta testing is done and once we are confident that everything balanced, you should be able to expect this mod fairly soon.

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I got a lttile sidetracked with RL this past week. So was not able to finish the review. I guess it is was for the better as I really want the 1.3 update to be released before I do anymore more code stuff.

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I've taken a look at 1.3 now, and I didn't notice any changes in this area of the game. I also took a look at your UAB mod, which I think, focused a little too strongly on "negative" bonuses. My gut feeling is that there should probably only be at most one negative point option per ability... otherwise stuff just gets a little too weird...

Thanks for digging in to this area, though. I think it does need quite a bit of work, and it seems like you're generally headed in the right direction.

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Thanks! The first pack was mainly designed to equalize the points per ability and in doing so the pros and cons had to match. Moreover there were hard coded limits to contend with hence the appearance of a negative focus.

Anyway, for the new system we established different parameters and the new systems look pretty damn good I think. Unfortunately do to real life responsibilities for both Tasty and I as well as an apparent lack of interest in this project by the community the development work has been basically been suspended. Sadly we have developed all the tables and data systems and all that is needed to plug-in the numbers and do the testing; then any final adjustments.

If you are interested in helping out please feel free to contact me via MSN or email and maybe we can work something out.

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In spite of the fact that I'm pretty unstable emotionally, I'd be happy to do the "plug-in" work myself and take a look at what happens. This game is one of the primary coping mechanisms I'm using right now so I don't have to focus on how my life is spinning out of control. Sad, but true...

My email is kfoelsch@gmail.com if you'd like to send me what you have thus far, and I'll be happy to mail back anything that I come up with...

I, for one, think that this is an excellent project, and that people will begin to appreciate it once we have something concrete for them to play with.

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Email on the way.

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I've been thinking about racial abilities quite a bit.

I see the fundamental problem with the differences between the races is that bonuses you get for being evil are a very heavy advantage.

Now, in order to remodel the races, we need to make a decision in order of how much to "value" being good vs. evil, and we need to think about whether we try and preserve the original advantages of the races in "vanilla" (pre-modded) Gal Civ II v1.3.

Anyone want to weigh in with an opionion on this question? Hypothetical or even not-so hypothetical opinions are also welcome on this question.

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Okay, after looking at the values assigned to the different technologies that the different races, the results were VERY different than what I expected.

In the GOOD department, the Iconions totally dominate the Altarians

In the EVIL department, the Yorians totally dominate the Drengin and Korx

In the NEUTRAL department, the Drath, Torians, and Thalan are way ahead of the Terrans and the Custom Race... but if you're going to play the Thalans, why not just play the Yorians?

So, basically, any kind of balancing concept here is kind of hard to come by, at least in terms of what makes sense to me. I'd still rather play either the Drath or the Yorians.

I think that we should shoot for some kind of balancing factor, but as to what that might be, I'm open to suggestions. In terms of technology, it makes sense to me to just pick a target number for all the races. Similarly, the easiest thing to do with racial abilities is to pick a number of "off board" customization points and assign them in addition to the 10 customization points every race starts with.

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