whitt13

Join Date 02/2006

Hyperion Shrinker gives you less space?

In my current game I built a hyperion shrinker. I went to design a new scout ship and couldn't even add the same components that I had on the previous design? The new cargo hull was 93 space. Did the components scale up more in size and offset the increased space the shrinker gave me?

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Yup, it does that. Best advice is to not research the last two miniaturization techs.

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Did I read that right???!!! Aw man, whats the point then?

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This is news to me to.

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They really need to fix that. It's a downgrade.

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It's broke Jim! (er Frogboy)

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no way...i totally never noticed that...i gotta play some more and pay a bit more attention lol

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How does this effect games where you pick a race that already has miniaturization in their bonus??

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2393

I'd not heard of that before. If that is the case, then that needs to be fixed. I don't see how it could do that though. It just adds to the minautrization ability.

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On this thread there's a big graph of the error: https://forums.galciv2.com/?ForumID=274&AID=119681#926182 On a thread somewhere a person said they made a mod where they multiplied everything by 10 to fix decimal rounding errors. I'm interested in that mod.

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There's a file called: GC2Types.xml Well.... I think multiplying size and sizemod by 10 might do it. hmm... but maybe 100x might be best.

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ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!......X100

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Okay GC2Types.xml in your Data\English file, open it in a text editor and do a replace of "{/Size}" with "0{/Size}" *** NOTE REPLACE { and } with < and > (the forum messes them up somehow when I put the triangle thingies in) and then save that new file in Mods\Default\English and set it to use that as your mod directory. POOF! Fixed. A 130KB file instead of a 30MB or so patch. The only difference is that all numbers are in 100s, so it takes more mental skill, but of course this game is for people that want to think a whole lot. It's not starcraft where you click click click, but you sit and think and spend weeks on each game.

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Oh and the forum bug hasn't been fixed https://www.galciv.wikia.com/wiki/User:SleepAtWork/forumbug

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On this thread there's a big graph of the error: Link On a thread somewhere a person said they made a mod where they multiplied everything by 10 to fix decimal rounding errors. I'm interested in that mod.

Yes, that is also the thread where I presented my findings on the subject. I went about it in a different way though, just playing with the miniaturization values.

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so let me get this right.... if you research the last 2 miniaturization techs.... it actually makes everything bigger? So I shouldn't research them then?

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I don't understand how that can happen.... Minituarization isn't supposed to affect the component size, it only gives more space. Right?

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The GC2Types.xml states a Warp Drive MkII is Size:5,SizeMod:6.

In-game, on a normal medium hull, each one adds 7 units of hull space to the design; room for five. At supreme miniturization, (76 hullspace medium) each Warp Drive Mk-II adds 9 units of hull space; room for eight.

On a normal 80-space huge hull, Warp-II takes 9 spaces each; room for eight such parts. At supreme miniturization (160-space huge), they take 14 spaces each; room for eleven such parts.

@whitt13, could you post a list of componants to that scout?

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So what is the conclusion? Is it broken or not. Minturization creates more space, but also components increase in size so it is not a linear fit for more modules. You get some more, but not as many as you woulld expect.

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Yes: Paying nothing extra for a standard 80-space huge hull gets you room for nine warp-II engines. Investing an incredible fortune in research (nearly 20,000 research points) nets you a ship with room for only two more warp-II engines.

As to broken or not: I'm still curious about the assertion that there is a ship model that is unbuildable at a higher miniturization level. With a list of parts and hull, we can examine where it went wrong.

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heres an example (using info from mikeswi from the link further up):

W= size of Laser MK V and E= size of a Hyperwarp III, C = size small hull.

Advanced mini(no shrinker): C = 36, E = 6, W = 5

Expert mini (No Shrinker): C = 40, E = 7, W = 6

so, say you had a ship, 6 W and 1 E, taking up total size 36 (completely full small hull) with advanced miniaturization.

you get expert miniaturization, and these same components take up 6*6+7=43 space, but hull capacity has only gone up to 40 - -your ship is now illegal, you must REMOVE a component after having researched more miniaturization!

This is just one concrete example, there will be many other combinations where this happens (and others where miniaturization would work as expected)

The problem (as others have stated) is with decimal rounding and the size mod which adds a percentage of hull size to component size. - when you research a level of miniaturization, certain compnents will jump up a size when placed in a certain hull, instead of a smooth increace. So combinations of components many of which have just 'jumped' after a given miniaturization tech can end up increasing by a larger percentage than the miniaturization percentage, and may no longer fit in a given hull they fitted in before.

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Looks to me the decimal rounding is the problem then. As far as I can tell it just truncates and takes the integer value so if the calculations show a component size of 6.8 or 6.4 it is taken as 6. Like in your example above for hyperspace warp engines, Advanced mini on small ship = 5+ 0.05*36 = 6.8 . The game takes this size as 6. Expert mini on small ship = 5+0.05*40 = 7.0 . The game takes this size as 7. The scaling of component with ship size isn't technically a problem causing you to be worse off, it's the rounding that is a problem. If we ignore the rounding and use the raw numbers for advanced mini you can fill the small ship with = 36/6.8 = 5.29 engines. For expert mini you can fill the small ship with = 40/ 7 =5.71 engines.. Of course you can't have less than 1 of an engine, so in actual fact both settings allow 5 engines.

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The cargo hull was 93 after the shrinker changed it. So I'm not sure what level of miniturization that is. Before the shrinker I had 2 hyper warp engines, 10 sensor IV's, and 3 life supports. After, I added the life supports, engines and I think I only got 8 or 9 sensors to fit

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What about increasing the span covered by the miniturization technologies? For instance, instead of a 10% gain for the first step, have it at 50% gain. And for the last one, instead of a 100% gain, have it 500% gain in hull space.

Would this reduce the effect to negligible, and at the same time allow enough room to put additional equipment on a ship?

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Well, NONE of this would help with Metaverse, so I think I small quick patch is in order (especially as a good solution seems to be at hand). Until then, is there a definitive level of miniaturization that people who play on the Metaverse ought to stop at? I mean, if we go to Expert (or whatever the one before Ultimate and Supreme is called) with no shrinker and not Yor or Thalan, will ALL ships hold more components, or only a few? If we go all the way to Supreme with a shrinker, will we sometimes see an improvement, or will it always be a step back? Basically, is there a certain place on the scale that will be best in the vast majority of situations, or does each have its benefits and drawbacks? (I'm about to go for the miniaturizations in my current game, so if you know, speak up please!)

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I basically taught how to patch, but my question is though, should I have increased the sizemod value or left it the same? I only multiplied size by 10.

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