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Beefy jr
Beefy jr
Join Date 04/2006
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What determines 100% spending?

May 12, 2006 1:47:25 PM from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
This has been bugging me for a while now, but it especially bothers me after last night's potential spending spree. I had a economic boom event last night and I'm generating about 1000BC per wk (tax rate around 35%, spending slider at 100%).

If I still have excess income then how could I be spending 100%? I mean if I've got 15%Social, 15%Military, and 70% Research then none of those areas is maxed out and more money could be spent.

The solution I'm leaning towards (and I don't like it) is that your max spending rate is dependent on your max production capacity, max research capacity, and the chosen percentages (ie the slider values) of those capacities. Note: I'm not taking free production bonuses into account here.

(EX: if max production capacity (mil + soc) = 100, max research capacity = 100, and the sliders are set to 70% Research, 15%Soc, 15%Mil (or any combo that adds to 30%)....then your research spending will be 70BC (100 * 70%) and your production spending will be 90BC (300 * 30%). Resulting in max or 100% spending of 160BC.) Your actual spending will be determined by multiplying that max value with spending slider value.

Am I correct here? If so, I would propose that the social and military production sliders should add to 100% and the research slider be independent of them. All three would still be affected by the total spending slider.


Beef...I'm what's for dinner.
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Beefy jr
e-stab
Join Date 05/2003
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Reply #1 May 12, 2006 2:27:34 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
You're correct and your suggestion makes sense to me.
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Beefy jr
JavalTigar
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Reply #2 May 12, 2006 2:55:25 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
What determines 100% spending? The number of facilities you have.

(I know these numbers are not right but this is for example)

If you have 10 factories @ 5bc each & 10 labs @ 5 bc each, then your total spending is 100bc/week

If you are only making 80 bc/week and dont want to be in the red thn you need to adjust your spending. (basically laying off some labor)

Does this help?
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Beefy jr
Noumenon72
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Reply #3 May 12, 2006 3:13:47 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Think of it like this -- say you have a pass to Disney World that lets you go five hours a week. You can spend 100% of the pass without spending 100% of the time at Disney World. If you buy 20 passes (like buying more factories) you could spend 100% of your time at Disney World without spending 100% of your passes. So yeah, you have it right, youre spending 100% of your capacity but not 100% of your income -- that's how it's supposed to work, you need to build more factories to spend that extra income.
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zbiggie
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #4 May 12, 2006 5:22:13 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
hey i just had a bit of an idea. how bout overtime. so even though all your fact and res are at full capacity, if you want you should be able to get more out of them. so lets say they are at 100% capacity, to increace it to 105% you would have to double that amount for the 5%, and for the 10% increace you would need a 4 time increase in pay. I know if i was paid double or triple my wage i would gladly work 16 hour days, with washroom and lunch breaks for a while. Just a thought
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Reply #5 May 12, 2006 6:45:28 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
JavalTigar and Noumenon seem to be missing the point Beefy Jr. is trying to make. If your factories and labs are running at 100% capacity, then why can the Social, Military, and Research sliders affect how much the buildings produce? For example, even if spending was set to 100%, if you were to set your research slider at 100%, then there would be no military or social production going on, which means your factories are running at 0% capacity. This means there's no way 100% spending means 100% of factory AND lab capacity is being used.

So the question remains, what does 100% spending really mean?
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onowak
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Reply #6 May 12, 2006 6:56:34 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
check the threads from a few months back. i recall reading a fair bit of analysis explaining this phenomenon in an effort to split the sliders apart.

the end result was that its not gonna happen as it would change the game too much.

check it out, youll see.

-0.
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Heroine4Life
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Reply #7 May 12, 2006 7:06:12 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
BTW 1000 a turn isnt very much most games (including games where i have 2-10 planets) i am making 5 digit numbers. 35% tax extremely low aswell.
You can still make money since spending and creating money arent linked. If you build 0 factorys and just farms and happy places you can easly have 100% spending and create amazing money (no production of course really except your starting colony). You only playing for the spending that you can use. If you have 100% production and 50% military 50% reasearch its easy to calculate. Calcualte the max number of industry you can make on the planet (base colony only 10 i believe) then its at 50% so its 5 per turn, therefor your spending 5bc do to this production.
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Ajosin
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Reply #8 May 12, 2006 7:32:10 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
check the threads from a few months back. i recall reading a fair bit of analysis explaining this phenomenon in an effort to split the sliders apart.

the end result was that its not gonna happen as it would change the game too much.

check it out, youll see.


Do you have a link to the discussion? Thanks.

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onowak
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Reply #9 May 12, 2006 8:10:20 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
i'm sorry, i don't have the link. admittedly, i am too lazy to search for it. but i can assure you it was written about extensively. check threads around march or early april...

try the search term "economy" in the search field--there are some interesting discussions that might be of context...


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random50
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Reply #10 May 12, 2006 9:57:12 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
No need to do a search, beefy has it spot on.
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Reply #11 May 15, 2006 1:55:35 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Well, at least now I know I'm right.

I suspect that the reason the economy is set up this way is one of the following:

Possibility a: The factory began as THE production facility for all Mil, Soc, and Rsch output so having all the sliders add to 100% made sense. However, that was too simple of an economy so they broke out the research and created the labs, but left the sliders as they were.

Possibility b: The economy was set up as I suggested, but it created balance problems for research and tech trading. Economic power houses became tech power houses and tech victories became too easy.

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random50
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Reply #12 May 15, 2006 3:44:38 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
If efficiency is your thing, it's perfectly possible to ignore factories altogether...if you build up all your planets with nothing but research facilities, you can get enough production from the focus buttons to maintain a military. Not as absurd as it sounds....whilst you will only produce ships very slowly, it won't take you long to have such a strong tech lead they'll be almost invincible.

A strong economy is vital. Not only are you GENUINELY spending at very nearly 100% of capacity, but also if you plan on building up the planets you conquer, you will probably have to buy the first few research facilities in order to get the rest built at a reasonable rate. (Personally I don't bother with that...I just use the extra income to finance extra production around my core planets via economy starbases. This is also more cost effective since you get half the bonus for free.)

You could also take the mirror image approach. IE build nothing but factories and focus on research. This approach is even more viable because:

a) There's no need to carefully balance exactly when to make the shift from military/social spending to research spending.
You don't have the problem of it being very slow and/or expensive to build up your conquered planets.
c) Can't fund full production yet? No problem. Just don't build ships or social projects on a few planets. With the research based strategy, if you want useful production levels you HAVE to pay for the research. The other way round you can get the research without having to build anything at the time.

Also, nobody is going to be able to beat you to construction of the wonders. Even suicidal is not too bad with this strategy, at least WITH tech trading. Without tech trading...I suspect it MIGHT still be possible, but you need a little bit of luck with starting positions. An early war will cripple you since your ships will be well behind techwise.
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Kimo Hardy
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Reply #13 May 18, 2006 3:46:33 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Great question - another way of thinking about it is physical plant vs. capital. My understanding is that the 100% is how much of your income is spent on production - the actual amount of production this produces, however, is limited by the amount of physical plant (factories,etc.). So if Ford decides to run all it's factories at full capacity (and still has the money to do it) it will cos tthem 100% of the operating cost of the factory, not 100% of their income.

If so, it's logical economically but as a game model it doesn't seem intuitive compared to say, civ . Probably has it's own advantages other ways.
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Richrf
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Reply #14 May 18, 2006 11:59:51 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
If so, it's logical economically but as a game model it doesn't seem intuitive compared to say, civ . Probably has it's own advantages other ways.


Yes like making it easier on the AI....
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Reply #15 May 19, 2006 5:24:10 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
It just means that same manpower sometimes works in factories and sometimes in reserach lab.
If you pu 100% to labs, noone works in factories and they don't do a thing.
If you put 50% research and 25% to social, 25% to military, 50% work in labs, and 50% work in factories (with half on military and half of research).
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Ajosin
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Reply #16 May 23, 2006 2:46:40 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Yea, why do factories or labs have to allways be partially empty? Why can't I keep them both full if I have the money? This part of the game setup is ilogical.
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Reply #17 May 23, 2006 9:19:33 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I like p22's way to put it. It's as if making more factories means your workers work more efficiently and take higher wages.

Link <- a previous discussion on this matter

Obviously it IS illogical, you'd need independant sliders, or sliders that are not only relative.

"This would change the game too much"? as in you would have to be extra careful about your economy because otherwise you can't go for the oh-so-good-looking 100%? As in these sliders that are perhaps the most important choices for your empire wouldn't be as simple as they are? I mean many screens are quite complex with lots of information you don't need and lots of possible tweaks, but the things that let you choose how to run your empire's domestic area are extremely simplified. I'm not saying people should be forced to enter bc values of each spending, but that it should be possible. Perhaps with a general spending bar for fast spending decision, 2 sliders to choose how much of the absolute research and military/social productions are to be used if the spending bar is at 100%, and one for the relative split between military and social.

I fail to see how this would hurt balance on the whole, as the sliders change could come with less mp per factory or tp per lab, or with more expensive ships/techs...
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Reply #18 May 23, 2006 3:03:47 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
In summary, 100% spending is *actually* 50% spending.

You are spending between 0-100 on industrial (military and social combined) and 0-100 on research, yet you only have 100 points to distribute.
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bcswen
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Reply #19 May 24, 2006 10:08:33 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Actually 100% spending is NOT really 50% spending. Example: set the spending slider to 100%, then set research to 100%. You will notice that you are using up all your research capabilities, say 300 tp per turn. Now, keep the spending at 100%, but set social production to 100%. Now you are using up all your production capabilities, which MAY or MAY NOT be the same as your research capabilities (e.g 450). So, your spending may be set to 100%, but the actual expenditure changes according to how much you distribute to each section, which, IMO, is very confusing.
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random50
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Reply #20 May 24, 2006 11:07:53 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
In summary, 100% spending is *actually* 50% spending.


Nope. Much as bcswen says in post 19, it depends where the sliders are and how buildings are distributed within your empire. I outlined above two strategies for which 100% spending is *genuine* 100% spending (or at least, very close). They both have their drawbacks. They're both quite a fun change and challenge too!
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DreadArchon
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Reply #21 May 25, 2006 12:04:56 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
If you're making enough that you can operate at full tilt and still want more, drop your Social and Military to the floor and just BUY your buildings and ships. It's a pretty limited solution, but it works often enough to matter.

Example: I have my Social at 5%, my Military at 5%, and my Research at 90%. My shipyards on high-industry worlds gradually churn out ships for me, often with focused-in points from a research facility on a bonus tile, and I have a couple low-industry worlds that I can "Buy Now" ships from if I need more in short order. Likewise, my many worlds all build and upgrade themselves slowly, but I can expedite the process by buying buildings FROM LATER IN THE QUEUE while my early projects chug away.

(And once I max out my tech, I jack military to 100%, outfit a fleet, and set the galaxy ablaze. )
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Reply #22 May 25, 2006 10:04:15 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Think of it like this -- say you have a pass to Disney World that lets you go five hours a week. You can spend 100% of the pass without spending 100% of the time at Disney World. If you buy 20 passes (like buying more factories) you could spend 100% of your time at Disney World without spending 100% of your passes. So yeah, you have it right, youre spending 100% of your capacity but not 100% of your income -- that's how it's supposed to work, you need to build more factories to spend that extra income.


I hope you understood that.

I find this comparison far simpler,

If I had a duck a dog and a cow, and 2 buckets of feed and 5 bottles of water,
And only worked for every 4 minutes out of 5 (80%)
, I coule feed and water half a cow for 8 hours plus feed 27% of a duck for a week and the dog can feed itself and drink all it wants for 5 minutes.



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bluebeholder
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Reply #23 May 25, 2006 2:24:57 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Okay let me correct my last statement.
------------------
100% spending ranges from 0% to 100% actual spending, depending on your buildings. Generally it is closer to 50%.

This is because you can spend between 0-100 on industrial (military and social combined) and 0-100 on research, yet you only have 100 points to distribute (and 200 places to put them).
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