Best Weapon path » Forum Post by ROBO

I perfer missles/beam combination over strait mass drivers and with some minturization techs space really is not an issue.

I found a fleet of 4-5 mediums with 3 Harpon III or better and armour will take out just about anything the AI throughs at you on normal anyway.

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I tend to go the Missile route and try to stay out of conflict untill I have at least basic torpedo techs, and then I just field massed swarms of single torp, single engine, and some deffenses if theres room fighters(tiny hulls). This has worked well for me, though you might want to keep plenty of money around to pay people to not fight you till you're ready.

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The best weapon path is, of course, the one against which you worst enemy has least defense.

I usually stick to one weapon/defense path that seems to be the most effective combo against the civs I see as threats in early game. But I have been sometimes forced to switch later because someone has adapted (the AI really seems to know how to do it!) to my ship designs and my generally good ships just suck against his tailored fleet.

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Deepnds on how long your game is.

NanoRipper is the only reason to even bother to go for mass drivers. Once you have it, you should abandon mass drivers.

If you can stay out of war long enough to bring large hulled ships into play (or just really miniturized mediums, Yor-style), missiles are a decent choice. They don't grow in size (on larger hulls) nearly as fast as lasers do. However, you need to have NLC-enhanced research for this to pay off, because missile techs are more expensive per size/damage ratio than beams.

If you want to kill someone in the early game, or just protect your early game borders, lasers are the way to go. Or, maybe you've got serious research going and want to bottom-out a weapon tree. Then go for lasers.

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Go the opposite of what everyone else is doing. And in 1.1 seems they all choose 1 path. Easy to counter.

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I agree with Nulkku. I watch the trades, and spy reports, to see which branches of offense/defense the AI seems to be concentrating in, and tailor my path to best counter theirs. While I proceed down that path, I use tech trading to try to stay not far behind the AI, so I don't have to start from the beginning if I need to switch techs. When you keep blowing fleets of his rock-throwers out of space with one medium ship armed with beams, the AI will eventually adapt. The higher the difficulty level, the sooner that will happen.

I think that there is no one weapon path which guarantees victory every game, which indicates the weapons are well-balanced. It's situational depending on your enemy. That said, in regular, non-campaign games, I typically see the AI ignore the beam path in the early game, making it a good path, usually. This is anecdotal, and not hard proof, but I've found beams very effective through most of the game. My advice is to find out what your likely opponent is using, and tailor yourself to defeat that.

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i dont know why u guys say that Ai go the same path ... its my 3rd game in 1.1 and they almost always research all 3 weapons types, even with tech trading

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You need good weapons? There is an easy and good fix for that: BE EVIL

Psyonic beam is a really much better weapon than nano rippers, and it is not topped in efficiency by anything below Doom Ray, not even Disruptors III. Also, you get top-notch military production due to Artificial Slave Center and a booming economy by brainwashing your subjects with Mind Control Center.

Sure, nobody likes you, but you have to make some sacrifices in the name of efficiency

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Nano-ripper is expensive. It has the cost of a high end weapon component. I've used ripper strategy before and more or less.. Now I just choose a path that my enemies dont have defenses to. I have a tech advantage and I use it.

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I used to go straight down the missile tree until I got to photon torps, then switch to beam theory and catch up quick later on.

Then 1.1 beta 4 came out and the Dread Lords started using the high end defenses on their ships (and I discovered this by getting shredded). So that forced me into mass drivers and I made a beeline straight to Nano Ripper. I barely use anything else now, until I get to disruptors. I always have a huge economy, so I can afford it.

What I'm starting to do now is make medium/large hull ships armed with nano rippers and optimized defenses, escorted by fighters armed with singularity drivers. It seems to be working pretty well so far.

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I recently played a game where nobody ever invented beam weapons, which was an interesting change. Mostly armor, mass drivers, and missiles, by the time things got hot, lasers were too low on the tech tree to be brought up fast enough. I found it interesting and fun to cover my ships with armor to counter the enemie's mass drivers, and use missiles against them because most of them had very little Chaff tech.

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usually i research up Mass Drivers till like Singularity, then research missiles or beam as far as i can...so when the AI finally catches on to my mass driver set up i can switch to a new weapon style that's twice as strong =P...i for one love missiles.

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The tradeoff for Mass Drivers is that they tend to be cheaper on a per damage basis then beams, putting aside the Nano Ripper for a moment. The net effect of this is usually not very signifigant, but it certaintly adds up.

While a good damage to hull space ratio is important, it is not the be all end all. If you expect to be in a situation where its important to rebuild lost ships frequently, you may want to reconsider going after beam weapons.

Missiles are an odd beast, since any given missile weapon will take more space then the comparable mass or beam weapon. If your all about swarms of fighters, this is a problem. But with missiles, you end up getting more raw damage faster, at least early on. Where slapping any one defensive item on a ship will work against beam or missile early on, it wont work as well against missile. If you prefer to get to medium and Larger hulls quickly, then missiles are quite viable.

END COMMUNICATION

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Mass Driver

[Name]Nano Ripper[/Name]
[DisplayName]Nano Ripper[/DisplayName]
[Class]G[/Class]
[Type]3[/Type]
[Size]9[/Size]
[SizeMod]4[/SizeMod]
[Cost]150[/Cost]
[Damage]5[/Damage]

[Name]BlackHoleGun[/Name]
[DisplayName]Black Hole Generator[/DisplayName]
[Class]G[/Class]
[Type]6[/Type]
[Size]6[/Size]
[SizeMod]4[/SizeMod]
[Cost]100[/Cost]
[Damage]16[/Damage]

Beam
[Name]DoomRay[/Name]
[DisplayName]Doom Ray[/DisplayName]
[Class]B[/Class]
[Type]5[/Type]
[Size]10[/Size]
[SizeMod]4[/SizeMod]
[Cost]150[/Cost]
[Damage]22[/Damage]

Missle
[Name]BlackholeEruptor[/Name]
[DisplayName]BlackholeEruptor[/DisplayName]
[Class]M[/Class]
[Type]6[/Type]
[Size]11[/Size]
[SizeMod]2[/SizeMod]
[Cost]160[/Cost]
[Damage]25[/Damage]

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Even though the Black Hole Gun mass driver is weaker, it is also smaller and cheaper by far.
So
3 Black Hole Gun =
48 damage
18 size
300 cost

2 Doom Ray =
44 damage
20 size
300 cost

2 Black Hole Erupter =
50 damage
22 size
320 cost

The smaller SizeMod on the missle may make it a better deal all the way around, especially on larger ships.
But the mass driver is a better deal than the beam.

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Typically I research beam, up to Laser II... Since I can then throw on 2 lasers for planet defenders. At that point I have a good idea which way my immediate neighbours are heading and pick the optimal weapon path.

Maybe it's because I play a non-aggressive style they are typically building defenses for other AI's weapons. Leaves me pretty clear to travel up the beam path unopposed until later. By then it's usually too late for them to adapt.

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I always get the Doom Ray just because of how it looks. Then I research at least one other complete line, usually the one not being used by the other races.

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First, let's talk about hull dependent size of each tech. Beam and mass driver tech has smaller base size but bigger hull size dependencies (ie. The larger the hull, the bigger the increase in size), while missile has larger base size but smaller hull size dependence. So if you're going to put weapons on medium hull or larger, missiles easily wins.

I'm going to ignore tiny hulls, cause seriously, who builds fighters using these anyways.

I'm also going to look at the advance stages of each weapon because they're the tech just before a power increase.

Assume 0 miniturization.

If we just look at small hull size 26, and look at the first useful comparable weapon tech levels, Laser V, Railgun VI, and Stinger IV, their power/size are 1/5, 1/6, 2/12. So Laser V wins out here.

If we then compare the next level, plasma III and harpoon III, you have ratios of 2/6=0.3 and 3/9=0.3 respectively. However, the total research cost to get to this point are 4125 and 4650 respectively, so you probably get to plasma III a few turns earlier (you should be producing more than 100 rp at this point).

If we include the abberation that is the nano ripper

, it's ratio is 5/10=0.5 and a total research cost of 6475.

If we start getting miniturization however and bigger hulls, the missile branch starts beating out it's comparable weapons in the other two branches. So once you reach mid game and even your small hulls have about 40 space, missiles are the way to go.

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I often use mixed weaponry, mostly beams + missiles. There is almost no enemy using BOTH types of defenses, so its really good to have mixed weaponry or mixed fleets.

Hey, I even got now 100+ Custom Ships (for my own race), each with a different job. There are Torpedo-Boats (small sized ships), Patrol-Boats (small ships with phasers and decent defense), Destroyers (small ship again, full of beamweapons, top notch), dozens of types of frigates and so on ... most of them outmaxed and really expensive, but combat worthy. Even my Dual-Disruptor-III-Fighter with Beam-Defense (5) is capable of destroying most enemies at that point of time, because most enemies are only using Plasma at this time

Favorite setting for a fleet: - 40+ Logistic

1 HUGE ship - 6 pts
- Focused on Beamweapons, TOP NOTCH all the time.
- Sometimes with at least one secundary type of weaponry, mostly Missiles. TOP NOTCH.
- Strong defenses, because those ships are focused by enemy.
- Job: Capital Ship of a fleet. I often create special Capitals for each fleet - a little Roleplay is fun

3 or 4 LARGE ships - 15 to 20 pts
- Focused on Beamweapons, TOP NOTCH if possible.
- At least one ship focused on Missiles. TOP NOTCH.
- Maybe one ship with mixed weaponry, depends on money and enemy.
- medium defensive-systems.
- Job: MCS (Main Combat Ship) - the "muscles" of my fleet. Too bad, they're too expensive to swarm the enemy.

4 MEDIUM ships - 16 pts
- Specialized on specific weaponry, depends on enemy, ALLWAYS TOP NOTCH.
- Job: Damagedealer. They're often NOT attacked by the enemy, because they're not that heavy like other ships, so they even don't need densive systems - more space for weaponry !

=====================

42 Pts (with 4 LARGE ships)

I love this setting, because you CAN have looses without loosing the war. Try this with only HUGE ships

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Does it really make sense to talk about offensive output without considering the defences? Missiles might be most effective on a raw damage/size scale, but if point defence is ALSO most effective on protection/size scale then that must be taken into consideration?

I''ve been looking a little at the numbers today. And I have to say it's all remarkably well balanced. I go along with the posters who say the best weapon is what your enemy can't defend against. Which is nice...it'd be boring to research the same one every game!

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Franco fx

Join Date 04/2003

+59

Well, I am finding that what their defenses are is not that important if you shoot first and have more points of fire power than they have of firepower and defense. If you don't have the numbers you better go back to the drawing board.

In 1.1 the AI is really piling on the defense but I was slaughtering the YOR with 65-70 attack laser fleets with no defense against their fleets of 35-40 missiles with 15-20 shields. It is just a numbers game with the first shot carrying the day. Give me the engine before the defense.

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You can keep your engine. The most powerful, longlived ship I've ever seen was the only "Omega" class battlecruiser I ever built, (doesn't everyone name their ultimate ships omega at some point?

) the Behemoth. It had a beam defense of about 90, speed 9, a sensor range of over a parsec, and I Doom Ray for attack. It didn't need heavy attack, because it never got hit. I only made one because I was losing a war to the Torians, and soon afterwards lost my manu and economic capitals, and couldn't sustain it.

That damn ship could have had a game made about it's role in the war. It's six year role. At the time, pretty much everyone had been using beam technology (I had traded them plasma weapons early on, and suppressed the shield techs while playing diplomat and keeping shield-armed ships in my own armada, and of course everyone loved me, I wasn't a threat

)

So that one ship single-handedly beat the entire Torian navy. Even when they switched to missiles, my defence still counted to 9, which was enough to keep me alive against primitave missile techs.

Go with whatever weapons you want, but defend large and huge hulls with your entire economy. You might be able to fit 10 Black Hole eruptors at a squeeze, but I can fit and afford ships with 250 missle defence

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doesn't everyone name their ultimate ships omega at some point?

I name my meanest ship "Devastator Class Dreadnought". Or actually "SD" instead, since I can't fit "dreadnought" while naming it. Or "%name% Ultra Fighter" instead of "%name% Heavy Fighter".

Defense isn't all that useful at the low end, unless the enemy's attack strength is low. It's when you are one or two generations below the very highest tech that defenses really screw up an attacker.

I threw several fleets of fighters (of 21 each) at a couple of Dread Lord ships the same night I installed 1.1 beta 4. That was the beta where they started using defenses regularly. I had Stinger missiles; they had Aeron Point Defense. Guess which of us went back to the ship designer after that battle?

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Well, I am finding that what their defenses are is not that important if you shoot first and have more points of fire power than they have of firepower and defense. If you don't have the numbers you better go back to the drawing board.

Indeed, that seems the easiest way to beat the AI.

You can keep your engine. The most powerful, longlived ship I've ever seen was the only "Omega" class battlecruiser I ever built, (doesn't everyone name their ultimate ships omega at some point? ) the Behemoth. It had a beam defense of about 90, speed 9, a sensor range of over a parsec, and I Doom Ray for attack. It didn't need heavy attack, because it never got hit. I only made one because I was losing a war to the Torians, and soon afterwards lost my manu and economic capitals, and couldn't sustain it.

Just one question when you are attacked by a fleet,

Each ship attacks indidvually right? I mean if 2 attacking ships in the fleet have 6 attack each, their damage is 0-6 twice and defense applies to both attacks. Or do they do damage of 0-12 with defense applying once?

Extreme defense is not bad an idea, just like extreme attack, but the Computer AI, uses neither, that is the problem!

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Extreme defense is not bad an idea, just like extreme attack, but the Computer AI, uses neither, that is the problem!

Not true, I've seen AI ships with 15 attack, 50 defense or the other way around, both in my first and only 1.1-game so far.

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