dusabre

Join Date 08/2003

Starbases - too important in game - option to turn off

I know this will sound controversial but I would like to request an option to turn off starbase production or massively scale down the importance of starbases in the game.

I played a lot of Galciv and have played through the campaign in GC2 as well as played quite a few normal scenarios.

As with previous games - resource control and starbase construction are extremely important - in some cases even more so than planet improvement or control (not always, but often).

This is for a variety of reasons:
1) fully developed resources grant extremely large bonuses - in a large enough empire control of a resource is more beneficial than the control a whole planet or system of planets.

2) it is extremely hard to build a viable economy without creating trade routes and placing trade route enhancers.

3) influence centers can allow easy capture of enemy planets - if built within your borders, planetary rebellions will easily increase your empire size without causing conflict.

I however find this aspect of the game extremely tedious, imbalancing and boring for these reasons:

1) as mentioned, resource control is more important than planet control - which seems a tad unlikely and shifts the game to control of starbases rather than planets. In frustration I call the game Gal Starbase Builder.

2) the economic bonuses granted by bases imbalance the game massively - it is possible to add multipliers to trade route profits granting almost unlimited bc resources - this aspect appeared in GC1 and was the only real economic strategy viable at higher levels. With a friendly trading partner, this is an easy but tedious route to economic - and therefore military supremacy - without having to go through with tech development (you can buy what you need)

3) starbase construction is incredibly tedious - you must build fleets upon fleets of constructors to fully develop and protect starbases. Huge constructors which an add a couple of levels of defences or enhancements are currently not allowed under the game (is this a bug or a deliberate design? - multiple modules do not allow multiple building...). Yes you can use rally points to make construction slightly less tedious but rally point management is tedious. And I don't want to be building constructors for most of the game - I want to be building battleships.

4) you can never really 'finish' starbase building - in that the amount of levels you can add to a starbase is high (50+) and the numer of starbases allowed by logistics multiplied by the levels you can build means that you would have to build hundreds of constructors to reach the limits of building - now granted most games will finish before you reach these limits or even near them but it still means that starbase construction is a never ending task - even more than technology research. For the reasons related to economics that I have already stated - if you allow the AI to gain an advantage in starbase construction, you will lose the game - so you have to continue your escalating starbase building campaign throughout the game.

5) starbases are difficult to build and easy to lose - causing massive frustration when the bc, resource, time, clicks and concentration involved in them is lost when they are destroyed by an easily (bc, resource, time, click and concentration) built fleet of enemy ships. Before anybody says that starbases are more powerful than ships at the same tech level - yes this is true but a fleet of ships is easy to build and easy to run away with and hide but a starbase cannot hide and will be destroyed by concentration of power - static defences rarely work.

Having said that, I like military starbases and to some degree can accept a minor starbase presence. Could it be possible to add an option to games that switch off economic & influence starbases (or any one of the 3 or combination) or limit their numers or maximum upgrades? If possible, allow multiple construction modules to be added to ships to allow faster construction - this is especially important at the end game. If I can build a massive battleship in a couple of turns, why can't I build a hulking starbase constructor?

I am resigned to my wish not being fulfiled.

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I really agree wtih this, as starbases tend to becom to much of a chore to deal with. Though they are of course fun to some extent. I would like to have the option of setting a limit to either the amount of starbases of a given type per sector (of for all types, which would force specialization), or alternatively an optional limit to how many bonuses from different starbases that can overlap. As it is now, i feel more or less forced to spam economy starbases all around my planets.

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Starbases are supposed to be important. There may be some tweaks here-and-there I'd like, but overall I like them as they are.

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Starbases are my only major complaint about the game.

The ENDLESS (but necessary) upgrading and management of constructors and way points to keep the bases upgraded.

Maybe if there was a blanket "send constructor to nearest starbase with room to upgrade" button or something I'd feel better about it.

But as I posted in a related thread, I swear I spend 80% of my time following the initial colonization rush just managing starbase construction. /yawn.

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as mentioned, resource control is more important than planet control - which seems a tad unlikely and shifts the game to control of starbases rather than planets.

This allows the game to be something beyond just rushing colony ships and grab the best planet.

starbases are difficult to build and easy to lose

Good, so take out the enemy starbases and don't bother with them if they are so difficult to build. If enemy possess the incredibly unbalancing mine base, take that out first.

the economic bonuses granted by bases imbalance the game massively - it is possible to add multipliers to trade route profits granting almost unlimited bc resources

I find that you can gain much more from tax than trade. While you can add multipliers to trade routes. The +% to social/military/research only increases maximum you can spend, it doesn't give you free bonus.

When you build a LOT of starbases, you will find that each starbase would cost so much that it is not worth the effort.

So if you don't like starbases, don't build them. If the AI are building lots of them, take them out (you said they are hard to build and easy to lose..)

With that said, having the optio of just turning starbases off won't hurt.

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I do like the idea of multiple constructor modules on a ship, though.

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I instead of turning starbases OFF would add option to choose minimum distance starbases range , with 3 default like now it could be nice to be able to increase it, or may be increase automatically according to galaxy size.
This would take care about "too many starbbases" issue.

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Starbases are what make this game different from other Space Civs. I actually like them and enjoy them. It lets me play a game without ever going to war, and still winning. So I disagree with you, but I can understand if you want to remove them from the game with an option. Although they are such a big part of the game, I don't know how well that would work.

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Personally, I love the starbase feel. Being a militarist, I don't generally don't build zillions of them, I'm all about choosing and knocking out my first victim as fast as possible with only a few defensive bases built. I could definitely see this problem if you are more of a tech/influence builder.

I would suggest an easy possible fix (might already be moddable) to increase the density range of starbases from 3 parsecs to maybe 8 or 10 parsecs. This would make starbases few and far between and make you choose which ones you wanted more carefully.

I would like to see multiple constructors on a ship (yes it would be a bit of code work with the dialog box, but I bet Stardock's interface man could do it in a few hours). This would greatly streamline the late game construction efforts.

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I would like to have the option of setting a limit to either the amount of starbases of a given type per sector

the stickies said their will eventually be a blanket maximum of 4 per sector, same as the AI has. But I've won military victories (when I have cultural off) where I've never built a single transport. They really are too powerful

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I, too, would like a limit to starbases. I don't mind them if you could choose them only to be buildable upon existing resources, but to be able to place them anywhere leads to...well, cluttered space full of them. Starbase spam.

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Can I know how you play? Even with 10 trade routes and 5-6 economic starbases, my trade income is never more then a third of my tax income. Sure, it allows me to have a positive budget running at 100% industrial capacity and that's just fine and dandy, but you make it sound as if trade lets you have hundred thousands bc. How do you do it?

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

If you really don't want starbases in the game, simply edit your GC2Types.xml file and remove the constructor component. Provided it doesn't cause massive game errors, it should do the trick

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One note: This past weekend in a game several times laws were passed limiting startbasses to 2 mod and allowing old ones to remain as they were but not be upgraded. The terms was supposed to be 2 yrs each time but the first time seemed like forever! (It did not drop until a new restriction/law was passed.)

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I love starbases - they're a huge part of this game. Asking to have them removed or optionally not included seems like an abomination of an idea. They are simply a part of building up your space empire, along with acquiring and developing planets, building ships, spreading influence, etc.

Resource starbases are supposed to have huge impact - you're supposed to be motivated to acquire them, develop them, and defend them.

Starbases have maint costs and you're limited in how many you can make by logistics. Seems like a great system to me.

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Don't you love it when you design a game with your vision, then some smart ass thinks he knows better and suggests the removal of several keystone aspects of the design? as in it would seriously compromise the design and vision of the game.

Hey...I find space annoying...could we remove that part of the game please...oh and I hate aliens...remove that too....oh why your at it go ahead and remove enconomy because that just isn't fun. To be honest... I want to play homeworld3 could you make galciv2 into homeworld 3 please? Oh and could I play as Invader Zim of the Irkin empire and have gir pop up and say funny random things like "thats not an alien its uh a secret goverment spy plane" for authenticity. Of course darth vader must be included as well. OH and make my ships look like startrek stuff because there is no other sci-fi other than trek....yeah...cool do it man doooo it.

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The terms was supposed to be 2 yrs each time but the first time seemed like forever! (It did not drop until a new restriction/law was passed.)

I think you should make this a seperate forum entry in the bug forum, the devs might want to hear about this one.

As for the issue with starbases, I don't agree. It is especially because of their potential bonus the trouble you have to go trough to keep them well developed and protected. They are not free, they cost time, and a lot of resources. Fair enough you should get benefits from them.

Altough I do think that Influence starbaces and influence victories are a bit too easy to achieve.

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5) starbases are difficult to build and easy to lose - causing massive frustration when the bc, resource, time, clicks and concentration involved in them is lost when they are destroyed by an easily (bc, resource, time, click and concentration) built fleet of enemy ships. Before anybody says that starbases are more powerful than ships at the same tech level - yes this is true but a fleet of ships is easy to build and easy to run away with and hide but a starbase cannot hide and will be destroyed by concentration of power - static defences rarely work.

You could just as easily insert the word "planet" everywhere that you have written "starbase" and it would be equally true. Of course you can't rely on static defenses - that's what your ships and fleets are for.

I will say that I would be all for having mulitple constructor modules possible on one ship. Right now starbase construction feels far too much like pollution cleanup did in Civ III...

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Yeah being able to set a different limit on Starbases sounds like a good idea. Imagine if you could go from say 3 to 5, 10 or even 20 parsecs apart. They become less frequent and more strategic..

I'm surprised no one mentioned the UP (good or bad), there's an issue to limit the # of modules. there's also an issue to tax foreign starbases.

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I really like starbases, but I have to agree that it is getting out of control in galciv2. I really hope that they will find a different way in galciv3. I mean 20-30 times or more you build a contructor and fly to a starbase and it is a nearly never ending, build and update. And even the biggest starbase is just a so freaking easy target. Build a fleet of 4 ships with good weapons and you have +240 beam or something. Thats only 4 ships build easy and fast. Those 4 ships just blow away every kind of starbase with ease and don't forget that you had to use 40+ constructors and thousands of credits to build that starbase. Starbases are really really weak in the endgame and its a huge pain to build them. I think its overkill that you can upgrade a starbase 40+ times.

Also in the later game there is another "glitch". When you build that eye of galaxy wonder or how it is called, then your ships have a lot bigger sensor range as a fully developed starbase? sorry guys but that makes no sense. Increase the sensor range of starbases, etc. deeprange starbases. Starbases should have a bigger sensor range as ships.

I would suggest that a starbase after you build it with a constructor works like a planet. There are only 2 types of starbases (military and civil starbases). On military starbases you can build weapons, shipyards, sensors and all that stuff. On civil starbases you can build influence moduls or trade and economic, research moduls and all that stuff. Civil starbases only have some basic defense and weapons. So you really need to protect them with your ships. Miliary starbases are huge and very powerful. Even a fleet of precursors rangers will suffer serious losses when attacking a military starbase.

Both starbases cost maintance, that will limit the number of starbases. As I already said starbases should work like planets. You build it once with a constructor and then you have say 20 free modul spots on a starbase. You can destroy moduls and build new moduls on a starbase. You don't need a constructor anymore to build a modul! Just click it and you see a big picture of that starbase, click a modul spot and chose what to build. It takes some rounds or money (like you build a building on a planet).

Another thing I would love to see. I don't think it makes sense that you build a shipyard on a planet. Tbh it really makes no sense to build a big capital ship on a planet. Makes no sense at all to build spaceships on a planet, if that isn't a really small spaceship. Even in reallife they wouldn't build a big colonizership etc. on our world, they would build a base in space first and then they would build that ship on that spacestation etc.

Every planet can build a spacestation without maintance. That spacestation is around the orbit of the planet. You don't need a constructor to build a spacestation around a planet you have colonized. Only with a spacestation around your planet you can build bigger ships (all ships bigger as tiny are only build on a spacestation). That spacestation around your planet works the same way a spacestation works you build in empty space. You can click it and you have 20 modul slots, you can either upgrade it into a military spacestation to build ships and to have some defense for your world or you can build it into a civil spacestation, etc. to boost your influence, your economics, your research etc.

Spacestations in free empty space are excatly the same as I already stated, the only diff is that they will cost maintance, etc. every spacestation (5 bc basic, 10 bc medium, 20bc huge).

Imo that would be much better and I hope you rethink the way spacestations work in galciv3. I really love them, but its a pain how it works in galciv2. One constructor to build a spacestation, then it works like a planet. click it and click on an empty modul slot and build something there, it costs money and it takes some time.

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This issue has been addressed by the devs. Not sure if it is in the latest patch though.

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Right, dropping starbases from the current limit of 3 parsecs between them and 4 per sector will reduce the number of possible starbases to almost a quarter their current level.

Personally, I like what starbases add to the game. I dont' think that there's "too much" micromanagement, but I can certainly envision a "constructor govenor" that would make things easier.

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I loved the comment with 'smartass'.

This is an ideas forum.

The devs want ideas.

I asked for options.

I did not insult them or criticize their hard work. GC2 is a great game. Starbases are overpowered IMO. MO is what the designers asked for.

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I think the number of Improvements to starbases needs to be significantly scaled back. I think the "never ending upgrade" isn't really fun. Starbase Defenses could just automatically upgrade to your best weapons/defense techs as your technologies improve.

That having been said, I've always used Defender ships to guard my starbases. Put them in Guard mode on the same tile as the starbase. Attackers must destroy the defender before they get to the starbase.

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