but still the Yors economy is universally described as being broken.

just build an additonal stockmarket on every planet will even the odds out not to say, specializing whole planets on economic income.

further, I wouldn't directly compare the government techtree with the Yors economic efficiency techtree because (a) other techtrees have economic trees with some racial innates as well and ( government techs bring also racial diplomacy innates which the Yor also severely lack

election should never be lost just lower taxes the day before (game will even remind you of that)

well, what's the point on spaming stalks when your planet will most likely never veer cross the 20b mark even if you have ALL galactic resources under your control? around that mark approval becomes incredible difficult to sustain.

a usual techtree has now 2 or 3 options. you either built labs or facs or markets. the first two only when your economy can sustain it, and if this is not the case (or you're more about directly buying stuff) thrn markets and this method is not available to the Yor.

besides, as the incomeforumulae holds the planets population in a squareroot (if remember correctly) you don't see a linear increase in cash as your planets population rises. that's why initially population is *very* important but once you crossed a certain threshold building markets is *always* better.

and if we look closely and compare stalks vs vlc & farms you'll also find that the latter is more efficient. 2 farms and 1 vls will net you generally more than 3 stalks, and this doesn't consider the fact that stalks will only be able to utilize 50% of bonus-tiles.

tbh I like the Yor for the challenge they setup, as well as they have quite strong and efficient starting techs and buildings. however what they generally lack are the tools to specialize planets.

edit:

that the Yor could do is specializing bigger planets to industry or techplanets but with just one market on every world you simply will not be able to finance that. that market probably will not even sustain their own planets if we think in terms of building higher tier buildings.

if you want an increased economical return then 2 markets by far. 12b is already enough. however, consider that money isn't everything to the game. population itself can be very usefull thats why I always aim for 15b and 18b. 

there is no such things as "free space". you always want to use all available tiles, if you don't do this you only weaken yourself. hence you're comparison is off, 3 tiles vs 4 isnt even.

try to compair 4 ASC vs 1 VLC, 2 farms 1 stockmarket on a 20b planet and you'll pretty much see how weak this constellation is. you care about maint? well, that single stockmarket took care about all maint of *all* buildings on this planet....

well, speaking economically, you didn't even want to go that far, 15b pop will do, and from then on it is way better to build only markets. which the Yor cant but everybody else can. that's what I'm harping about, the best choice has been taken away.

You've found a way to circumvent that, but your solutions aren't something that I would consider strong. You've weakened yourself by alots of things.

but you haven't reasoned up why the Yor don't need a strong economy. everything that is important will cost them the exact same amount of bcs. sure maintencance might be important early but in endgame with 100 planets its only a small part of the cake anymore. with techtrees that can specialize on econ planets you would never worry about maint when you have like 20k-50k bcs per turn at your disposal.

with other trees you can easily go all-lab build initially ships from focus but as the game progresses you simply buy your ships. not only drive all your buildings at 100% all the time but you have your ships exactly there whenever you need them regardless of planetary mp. try to pull that of with Yor, it doesn't work.

where's the flexibility, it's not there. you are FORCED by a semi crippled techtree to play out in very distinctive way, and I believe this is the reason why the Yor usually odn't pose much a threat in endgame. they have been constructed to be an early danger, no more.

btw it is not my personal opinion that the Yors econ is broken, but its evident from countless threads here in the forum.

You absolutely want to use these foodbonustiles as Yor. This will save you one ASC hence, you can leave the maintenance grid on the planet (which would be overbuilt by an ASC in all other cases)

Even if its a 300% or 700% foodtile. You don't have to fill the pop up to max, it'll come to a natural halt at 44% approval. Optimally all your planets should sit at 20% approval with taxes @ 79%. You'll find that many planets will have a different number of people which will be supported at this setting, bonus tiles, PQ, colonization events all come into play here.

just one afterthought. the higher a planets population is the lesser effective becomes moral. that's why it is completely ineffective to go for something bigger as 20b planets, although I think in ToA it could be done with techtrading on.

all in all your moralplus will allo for a better growth of your planets, but you won't see that many more people on these planets, nor will these extra inhabitants mean alot of greater income.

the only planets where maxing out the population is noteworthy are de facto specialized econ planets. because the more stockmarket ash in on an extra population the greater the chance gets that a VCR (or a farm, or both) will beat the return of an added stockmarket instead.

isnt that ironic? you're basically developing your planets like somebody who plays an all-econ strategy, which is something that the Yor can't do, however you have to do because there are no alternatives... lol

well, we all play our own games, and the game allows so many different approaches. what might work in your games won't work in mine and vice versa.

but from all what I've seen in your posts, and in my own experience, is, that as Yor, you have to hold yourself back in alot areas where others can simply max out their games without second thought. that's what is bothering me.

you realize that on suidical this approach of mixedsliders won't work? your buildings only drive on 50% of their theoretical output. if you'd go all-lab, and then specialize, you'll have quite an amount of production more to pay for. 

Yeah I understand that overbuilding structure is actually a good way to accustomize your needs, and I do that too alot, but generally speaking, a game where a civ will use all available tiles vs one which leaves 30% of all tiles free it's easy to say who will come out as winner.

even if these 30% are "only" build over by a spamable filler-structure, but in the case of stock markets vs ACS I find the stockmarket better.

maybe for the AI on suicidal who usually has no economic problems this might be different. the AI will also have his planets invaded and high pop combined with Yors good soldiering will help here, too - although im not sure if the Yor do utilize your high pop strategy at all.

for a human player I donno, I've as good as never experinced that my planets are inaded at all, so high pop for me is just to get moe income but here are stockmarkets better. just played with thalan on crippling, after an excellent colonial rush once I set my tax to have 100% approval the game was already won. there simply was no need to go higher in pop. once max was reached I just shipped away 3,5b ppl in a troop transport, besides the thalan mine so well I had around 90% approval in general@ 79% tax, once I took a troop transport from a planet it thus was at 100% and grew up fastly again. it was so easy and I should do that with Yor too but then 50% of your planet will be empty.

If the ACS would actually give more moral boost I'd say ok, but in direct comparison with things other civs get I wouldnt call them superior so that a specializiation to this would justify. and Yor dont have any significant pop growth bonuses at all, going super pop is something for a Breeder SA

no, I didn't forget it. I drew a direct comparison of the ways different civs can achieve and sustain a population. you need food and moral buildings for that. now the Yor need more tiles for the same goal but to compare a 4 tile approach to a 3 tile approach isnt an even comparion. so I was simply adding a spamabler fillerstructure to the other civ to make 4 vs 4. and as this structure will get more economic income the the low maint or higher pop numbers the Yor have the other ivs have an advatange here (generic human techtree)

im not talking about MV or score games. but in order to beat a suicidal game without cheesy methods such as influence points trade or swindleing etc you have to be very efficient about what to do. I micro every last bit of the game, and in a big galaxy setup a single turn will take hours because I go through all planets every and ships every turn. if I wouldnt care, then I would loose but I play to win^^

well, thats pretty low. I took a close look on that in my last games and with Thalans I crossed 1k per turn directly after the colonial rush with 20 planets. with the Altarians I crossed that too with only 3 planets where one is halfway specialized on econ the other are on techs and I have only 34b inhabitants.

because the ACS last tier give the same moral increase but it'll add some food to it. now you might say that you've already capped your population around 22b inhabitants and to go any further is near futile, but then you're actually using 5 tiles to sustain your population and the maintencance grid is only there to maintain higher tax.

however, building moral structures at a high/superhigh pop is generally a bad or inefficient idea since lowerering tax + adding a stockmarket instead will yield better results.

well I understand that there needs to be some sort of "throttle" because with a techtree designed for such a superhigh industrial output they would outmilitarize everybody if they could finance their production easily.

howver, whats a theoretical industrial capacity worth if you cant suppurt it? an economic based civ that will still outproduce you even with lower facs, because they simply can build higher tiered structures. there's a causality in this game it reads like this

pop-->econ-->mp, sp, tp

wherein tp will reflect back or close the circle through new techs that bring racials, but sp will only turn back in the case of building economic structures and mp will never do this. it always needs a strong econ behind it. econ is one of the limitating factors of it.

so being super at something doesnt practially mean you'll be better in that in a game at all.

that's because, in a practical game, that Market Center or Stock Market would be there. Once a certain MP/TP and Pop/Moral has been achieved, I will overbuild every empty tile with an economic structure, and this will mean that IF I had to use only 3 tiles for Pop/Moral I could build one such econ more. so this is a pretty practical conclusion^^ 

although this whole arguement could be offset by this point:

to which I fully agree. this is actually the fun element I currently encounter. However, still the game for the Yor plays exactly to the same basic rules as for any race:

and I personally see quite some weakness here for the Yor. However, I leave that argument here now. It might come down to personal play. Maybe I try to "burn" to fast or too strong with the Yor, my usual gameplay is heavily focused on economics.

Those numbers are definitely wrong. In my current game, I have 99 planets, a population of 1.640t (still growing), an Econ-ability of 131%, and my tax rate is 74%. This provides me a tax income of 12,550bc.

You kind of missed the whole point of using super-breeder, which is to colonize as many planets as possible, ASAP, and then turn production AND tax rate as low as possible to maximize approval rate, thereby booming your population in almost ALL your colonies for 4-5 turns.  

Then turn your tax rate and production rate back to normal, and your population base for taxes has doubled in size.  

No one else can do that like the Torians/Super-Breeder.

Building the Planetary Defense improvement would be pointless anyhow, because it doesn't work in the vanilla game. It never has. Only the Arcean Space Cannon does what it is supposed to do.