Why are the Dread Lords invincible now?

The results of the combat seem to suggest that the dreadlord attacked your fleet.

Since both fleets were to be destroyed that round, the tie rule came into play, which says that in the event of a tie the attacker survives with one hp.

If you had done the attacking, the dreadlord would have lost, and you would have one ship left at 1hp.

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I am not sure that explanation is correct.

I thought that - in cases of mutual annihilation - that the one ship that survives with 1 HP is always the ship with the highest ... something. I think the "something" is either DF or HPs. (Keep forgetting)

The combat results state that your seven ships had 175 HPs total, or something between 20 and 30 each. The DL ship had 50. Similarly, the screen shows your fleet with 133 AF and 0 DF, while the DL ship had 696 AF and 48 DF. Thus, no matter who attacked in that battle, the DL ship would always be the sole survivor.

IIRC, another solution may be to have more ships than the DL ship has weapons, but I may be wrong. It may also have changed in one of the patches. How many weapons did the DL ship have?

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The problem is indeed that the Dreadlord ship is superior. It is the best of all ships present and because all ships should have been destroyed, only the strongest one survives: the dreadlord vessel. This 'tie rule' is heavely biased towards the strongest attack, which makes killing thát ship a major pain in the behind.

I'd try sending in "suicide fighter" with all out weaponry to beat the DL ship down to 1 HP, and then a large fleet of mass-defense in an effort to soak up all the damage the Dl can deal + a little attack to finish it off...

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

I rarely have this problem in sandbox games, because the Dreadlords go down fast if you attack as soon as they show up. In the campaign, though, they are a real problem.

There are basically two solutions. The first is the attrition solution given above. Research logistics and cram as many tiny ships into a fleet as possible and just soak up damage and pray you can absorb more damage than they can put out.

The second is the bigger hammer. Research huge hulls, miniaturization, and either an end-line weapon or one of the psyonic weapons, then build a ship that outguns the Dreadlords by a healthy margin. In the campaign that one ship often bankrupts your empire, but you only need one to win.

To buy yourself time, get the first level of espionage against the Dreadlords. That way you can tell what ship they are going to attack next. Assuming the targetted ship is fast enough, you can kite the Dreadlord around by moving barely out of its range each turn. That way it wastes its time chasing something it can't catch and you have time to research your way to ships that can beat it.

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Quoting GooglyBoogly,

reply 1

The results of the combat seem to suggest that the dreadlord attacked your fleet.

Since both fleets were to be destroyed that round, the tie rule came into play, which says that in the event of a tie the attacker survives with one hp.

If you had done the attacking, the dreadlord would have lost, and you would have one ship left at 1hp.

I DID attack. It didn't matter how many fleets I attacked with, the ship always ended with 1hp. In fact, I actually attacked it with a third fleet, while the dreadnaught had 1 hp, and the fleet still could not destroy it.

So if I'm understanding, since the DL has enough damage in one round to kill all my ships, the DL ship automatically wins since all the ships in the battle would be destroyed?

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You need either to have one ship still with 1+ HP after the DL fires, or you need a ship that rates as better than the DL ship in that fleet (either HPs, or DF or AF, whatever the tie breaker is). You can achieve the first either by enough ships or by enough combined DF.

That is, count the weapons on the DL ship - call it N. Can you have N+1 ships in your fleet?

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The game uses this formula

sqrt( ( 2 * Attack ) + Defense + ( Current HP / 2 ) )

to determine ship-strength. However, I don't really know if that does apply to your example here, but it could be - the already tougher weapons of the DL ship would be given much more weight than the HP's of your ships.

Speaking about my own experiences with the DL - if I am not able to overtake their planets ASAP [as in the 'Altaria Resists' tournament] then I am usually going to destroy their ships by integrating a lot of on-type defences. Esp. in your example - when the enemy ship only has 1hp left - this would be a possible way to win, esp. because the defense-tree can be fastly researched.

All you need is a fleet with maxed-out defenses, some minor weapons, and *luck* [plenty of it]. Even a full salvage of a 600ATT won´t degrade all defenses & HP of a fleet stuffed full of ZPA.

And on your turn, you won´t even have to do a lot of damage - if your weapon is offtype the DL defense is 3, +1HP = 4 has to be your min weapon roll - easy.

Just survive the first round.

+1

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OK...so I've played for almost three years and I've never encountered this rule, but it makes sense. Next question...does the "first strike" racial perk change anything?

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

Very much yes. If you are attacking, it would remove the tie rule from play almost completely. The first strike ability makes it so any ship you destroy the first round doesn't get to fire back at all, so if you can kill the DL ship in the first round, you won't lose ANY ships, nor do your ships need to survive getting hit.

Also, in the first two parts of the game, the tie rule wasn't exactly the same. The attacker always had pretty much the same advantage that the first strike ability gives now. That may be why you never really saw the tie rule before.

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Found in here:

https://forums.galciv2.com/139395/page/2

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

The simplest way to defeat the tie rule is to attack with a large fleet of one-gun tiny hulls. As long as you've got more ships than the Dread Lord ship has guns (so they cannot all be killed in one round) and can deplete all of its health in one round, you will win.

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kryo-

I suggested that in #2 and #6. Good to get confirmation - thanx!

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Thinking about this thread last night I had a strange idea:

What would happen if a ATT+1 Fighter attacks a DEF+500 ship w/o any weapons on it?

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From the combat log, the Dread Lord has deflectors, which are doing a decent job at mitigating your beam weapons.

After many crushing defeats, I learned that no amount of HP or defense counter-measures would be enough to survive a single shot from a DL ship. However, DLs can only shoot one ship at a time. So I packed as much weaponry as I could into tiny ships (using the StarFury as a base), produced them en masse, then sent them on their way. The proof is in the pudding. The best way to tackle a single DL is to bum rush him with tiny hulls. I find I'd lose half or more of a fleet in every engagement, but I could keep up with my losses with such cheap ships. Word of warning, once they've adapted appropriate defenses, it's time to change weapons.

Also when I ran into an actual Dread Lord fleet, it's pretty much over. One or two DL ships aren't a problem, anymore than that tells me I've been sitting around too long and they've grabbed too many planets.

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Quoting Maiden666,

reply 13

What would happen if a ATT+1 Fighter attacks a DEF+500 ship w/o any weapons on it?

In 50 turns DEF+500 ship will win by the formula.

Quoting SPARTAN VI,

reply 14

From the combat log, the Dread Lord has deflectors, which are doing a decent job at mitigating your beam weapons.

14 DEF is surely not s]ufficient to mitigate ATK 133.

Quoting SPARTAN VI,

reply 14

After many crushing defeats, I learned that no amount of HP or defense counter-measures would be enough to survive a single shot from a DL ship.

Actually some amount of HP is usually sufficient to survive a single shot from a DL. Large ship with high-tech defense and full health will pretty much always survive even the supershot. So my tactic of fighting the DL's is simple — build a fleet of large ships with around 40 ATK(enough to kill small DL ships in one turn) and put the rest on defense. Of course very high DEF tech is a must.

Quoting SPARTAN VI,

reply 14

However, DLs can only shoot one ship at a time.

Not anymore. Now they shoot as many times as the amount of guns they have.

+1

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Quoting assault_ninja,

reply 15

In 50 turns DEF+500 ship will win by the formula.

Isn't it 300 turns? Anyway, think result would be the same. Paradoxical, isn't it?

Quoting assault_ninja,

reply 15

Actually some amount of HP is usually sufficient to survive a single shot from a DL. Large ship with high-tech defense and full health will pretty much always survive even the supershot. So my tactic of fighting the DL's is simple — build a fleet of large ships with around 40 ATK(enough to kill small DL ships in one turn) and put the rest on defense. Of course very high DEF tech is a must.

I have the same experience. As smaller enemy ships won't even be able to penetrate the defenses you don't even loose a single HP - and are able to keep your fleets in constant battle.

This is a grave difference to ships who are maxed out in ATT - they'll constantly loose HP (if they are not able to destroy an enemy fleet during the first round of the attack). This comes especially into play when one is aiming to attack an enemy conglomerate of multiple fleets/ships whose number exceeds the own move-points. Result is that the enemy will be the attacker next turn - which maxed DEF fleets don't have to fear (the enemy commits suicide by attacking - which is even fastening up your gameplay!), but maxed ATT fleets suffer an inital loss of HP always. (and in case of a strong DL ship attacking your fleet will be entirely destroyed.)

Of course HP can easily replenished with an upgrade to the same ship - but doing this in enemy terrain with a possible delay of 3 or 4 turns is a dangerous undertaking.

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Points of clarification:

-MAD (mutually assured destruction) tie rule is based on attack per ship
-Round limit tie rule is based on the formula Maiden referenced: sqrt( ( 2 * Attack ) + Defense + ( Current HP / 2 ) )
-Ship to ship combat ties are determined after 50 rounds
-Fleet to fleet combat ties are determined after 300 rounds

Quoting Maiden666,

reply 13

Thinking about this thread last night I had a strange idea:

What would happen if a ATT+1 Fighter attacks a DEF+500 ship w/o any weapons on it?

Quoting assault_ninja,

reply 15

In 50 turns DEF+500 ship will win by the formula.

There's not much to add to the advice you've been given.

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Why is it necessary to have a victor ? Why not have each fleet wipe each other out ?

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