rayadrel

Join Date 03/2007

Oh noes, the evil Drengin Empire is defeating me wholesale..

Or, you know, not. See, in my latest game I've been at war with the Drengin for ages and I've won almost every battle. They have a slight technological edge but my ships are generally better. I've taken territory from them. I've blown up their best starbases. I even sent an expedition to successfully invade the Drengia system.
So their homeworld is toast. Their fleets are no match for mine. I can harass their commerce at will. I can take worlds from them whenever I please.

So *why* in the blue blazes does the game think I'm *losing* the war?
Every time I try to make peace with them since war is costly, my dialogue acts as if I'm the losing side. And I'd have to basically give them all my techs to get peace.
What? Who has their homeworld still intact? Who's got fleets of battleships dominating the stars?

Is this a bug or what? What do I have to do? Conquer every single Drengin world before the game acknowledges I'm more powerful than them?

Locked Post

Advanced Search

Watch this post

Do not email me updates for this post Email me updates for this post

Successfully updated karma reason!

I think part of the reason is that the Drengin may still have a strong military rating, even if you win the battles. I've noticed the AI only sues or agrees to an even peace when it is on its back.

Hydro

Successfully updated karma reason!

*sigh*
It's not because they have fleets upon fleets of completely useless laser-equipped fighters that do nothing but give my battleships free experience is it?
Because I *know* they have less battleships and frigates than me, and at this point I have the galaxy's only dreadnought.
I had assumed that military power takes into account the quality of ships and not quantity. Was I mistaken?

Successfully updated karma reason!

Hi!

I think part of the reason is that the Drengin may still have a strong military rating

Until they have better military score, they don't want the peace. That's the main problem with the AI and warfare. In my current game Drengin had almost triple my military, but my ships were specially designed to counter theirs. I lost only one out of 6, and even that one was because I attacked an armed Space Station. Drengin lost a half of their ships (70 small hulls) and 2 planets out of 8, but they still think I'm the one who's losing...

Please Stardock, use some better model for military score calculation. One that will reflect the new combat model. Or even get rid of that combat model completely. The old one was less flawed.

BR, Iztok

Successfully updated karma reason!

Maybe its justthat the Drengin are so evil and warlike that even while losing they don't lose their desire for fighting and only when they have no defense left will they look for peace.

In the game i'm playing the Drengin declared that the galaxy wasnt big enough for the both of us. I had a very small military but had the techs to change that. I was woking on getting rich (I'm the Krox) so i neglected my offensive military. I made a ship called The Dregin Blackeye to counter them and in no time i was clearingf them out. Anyway througout this war i checked the doalog screen and got so funny responcses from them, something like: "ha ha we were only kidding when we attacked you" and some others. so i knew i was getting to the. after i took the thrid planet from then they asked me for peace,,, and i got just about every tech they had that i didnt. got me 1/4 of the way up the missle attach tree.

THEN the Alterians declare war on them, those vultures, and after losing a plant to them, the Drengin surrendederd to ME. woo hoo. I promised to tereat them well, oh their homeworld had a 700% manufacturing bonus tile.

So i dont think its a bug, i just think you have to convince them that they are losing, they could have one plante witha bunch of ships on it.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Don't get me wrong - I'm well used to the stubborn Black Knight type of AI ("I just took your homeworld!" "Twas but a minor planet.")
Actually GalCiv II has been quite refreshing up till now in that enemies knew when they were beaten and grovelled accordingly. Or at least gave good reasons for wanting war (i.e. after randomly breaking treaties with the Terrans, they told me I'm winning but they won't sign a peace with me just so I'll break it again) I don't expect the Drengin of all people to do that but the fact that the game thinks I'm *losing* is just a little too annoying.

Successfully updated karma reason!

It's not because they have fleets upon fleets of completely useless laser-equipped fighters that do nothing but give my battleships free experience is it?

It is becasuse of that. I beleive military rating is calculated in a way that adds total attack power along with total HP. Therefore, 50 6 Atk 15 HP ships > 2 300 Atk 120 HP ships. At least something along those lines.

Build Spin Control center and build useless, all attack large/huge ships in orbit. Your military rating will shoot up quickly.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Hmm.. I have started to build engineless attack platforms to stop pesky raids on my outer systems. Maybe I'll step construction of those up and see if that helps, thanks.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I had assumed that military power takes into account the quality of ships and not quantity. Was I mistaken?

Yes you were, unfortunately. Just hit F6, go to the timeline tab and select the military graph - unless your rating is significantly higher than theirs, and has been for a few turns, they will not make peace. Just blow them away.

It's not just military though - in my last game, I was in my first (and only) war with the Arceans, had completely wiped their military out and they refused peace because of my repeated reneging on peace treaties??? Strange, because I hadn't actually ever made peace with anyone in the galaxy - every war was fought to the death. Some flag got set there in error.

Successfully updated karma reason!

in my last game, I was in my first (and only) war with the Arceans, had completely wiped their military out and they refused peace because of my repeated reneging on peace treaties??? Strange, because I hadn't actually ever made peace with anyone in the galaxy - every war was fought to the death. Some flag got set there in error.

A computer error, or the Arceans (and you) were victims of propaganda. Didn't a "coalition of the willing" (Altarians, anyone?) invade an evil race because it had biological, chemical, and possibly nuclear weapons materials? Rumor flies, and it's often false.

Kind of reminds me of the assassination event. Whenever I get that, I initially think, "Hey, why would I do that?" Then I think, "Cool, this is a pretty realistic event!"

Successfully updated karma reason!

Kind of reminds me of the assassination event. Whenever I get that, I initially think, "Hey, why would I do that?" Then I think, "Cool, this is a pretty realistic event!"

It is cool.. though lifted right out of Master of Orion.

This game does like it's complicated, sinister events. Once I had the Iconians declare war on me because I attacked the Drath (I never did), the following turn the Drath declare war and I get the secret meeting event with half the galaxy declaring war on me. I kick their butts and they all sue for peace, I make peace with everyone except for the Drath who I think must've framed me. So I lay into them hard.
And of course, at that moment the Korath declare war on the Drath and sweep over them while they're flat on their backs. Hilarious!

Successfully updated karma reason!

This game does a pretty good job of making me feel a bit more immersed than other TBS games, which is nice. It could use work - as could any other game - but it's done quite well overall.

The biggest issue with the Drengin is those Super Dominator Cruisers. They get them every now and then and they wont surrender because the Drengin think they're worth something even though they aren't.

I'd like to see Super Dominator changed to something like "High Extortion possibilities in peacetime and double military production in wartime."

Successfully updated karma reason!

The Drengin fear me! Haha, I'm in a game and got them beat. I had just finished a war with the Altarians, (I always fight them in my games) and the Drengin and I were both allied with the remaining races, and the Drengin wouldn't make an alliance with me- so I realized I was next. With maxed miniturization, I created one vessel of each appropriate size- and then upgraded my entire fleet! The Drengin were horrified! They pulled there fleets and transports out of my territory asap! It was so cool, I've never seen the computer retreat from war like that. On a side note, I went in to debt and had to stop all spending for a several turns. Still, it worked so well.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I've always thought the best way to deal with this problem would be to create some variety of "status" for each individual war that is fought. It doesn't have to be overly complex as far as I can figure. Essentially whenever a war breaks out start a counter and keep track of the cost of everything lost by each side. Don't use this by itself though, because then it would be far too easy to exploit the comp by starting off a war with a bang and convincing them peace is a good idea without any reprecussions.

Maybe it could be as simple as making as multiplying a ratio of the cost of all things lost with the military ratings of each side. Sorta like this:

Say I've been at war for awhile and I've destroyed about 50% more of his stuff than he has of mine, making a ratio of 3:2, or 133% to 67%. Then you take this ratio and when the AI considers peace it actually uses these modified military ratings:

1.33*(myMilitaryRating) vs .67*(hisMilitaryRating)

That's an extremely simplified example, but it seems to me that it wouldn't be overly difficult to implement. At the conclusion of the war, for any reason, that ratio would then be reset to 0.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I've thought about that myself, and it would probably best NOT be completely reset at the end of a war. The AI needs to keep in mind the relative tactical skills of the different players... the Arceans, for instance, are considerably nastier than their military rating would suggest thanks to the first strike ability and their superior fleet management. This kind of effectiveness has a tendency to carry over between wars.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Then it should also keep track of wars won, wars started, peace treaties offered, and peace treaties accepted.

Successfully updated karma reason!

I'd say the AI does need to consider more than just the military rating - it leads to some silly situations like the one I started this topic for.
Lately I've gotten good at pumping up my rating, but now I get situtations like a recent one where I was at war with the Torians. I was the top military power, but they controlled an empire twice as large as mine, their economy was more stable (since I was playing a warmongering bully, cash was tight for me) and while they were no match for me I wasn't in any real position to launch any significant invasion due to the costs involved and the fact that there were two other empires between me and them.
And yet, despite all that.. the Torians surrendered. Because I had "beaten" them. (This is like the United States of America surrendering to Nazi Germany in 1939).

That is by the way why I now turn surrenders off. The AI is focused far too much on the military ratings.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Yeah, agree with you Ray. I'd also like to see the AI take into account the fact that you're stealing his planets, and perhaps approach you with a trade - you give him the planets back and he gives you some tech, money, and peace.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Yeah. I can't count the number of times that people on the other side of the map have declared war on me. Distance should definitly be a factor in their decisions... I'm perfectly justified in thumbing my nose at the Drengin when they ask for tribute from the other side of the galaxy, even when they're more powerful. By the time they GET to me, the attack ships will be completely obsolete, even IF they have the range to get there. Likewise, If I'm on the opposite side of the map and the AI is giving up their treasury to me simply because I have a couple more frigates than them...

Successfully updated karma reason!

Sadly Rayadrel, Magnumaniac's reply #8 almost certainly sums up what is going on. You can't just be beating the AI, you actually have to take the time to grind down their military rating... or they will stupidly stay at war with you, because they think they are winning. The only other option is if you ever offered a peace treaty and then attacked again shortly thereafter because....

Then it should also keep track of wars won, wars started, peace treaties offered, and peace treaties accepted.

It already does this, at least at a basic level. In DA they added the "--they don't trust us modifier", which you pick up if you offer a peace treaty in exchange for something (money, tech, planets) and then attack the defeated party again. At this point, the AI will not surrender to you no matter what, and if surrender options are enabled they will always choose to surrender to someone else.

Strange, because I hadn't actually ever made peace with anyone in the galaxy - every war was fought to the death. Some flag got set there in error.

Maybe, maybe not. There are several ways to pick up the "--they don't trust us" flag, not all related to peace treaties. But once that shows up on your relationship screen, forget about peace with that AI. Other ways that flag is set is if you ever attack someone you had a treaty with, or if the AI has decided that in one of your wars you used a "sneak attack" - taking lots of worlds in the first turn of a war.

If you still have that save game, check to see if you have that flag set for that race. If you don't, then I don't know what is going on there....

Hope that helps.

Successfully updated karma reason!

So *why* in the blue blazes does the game think I'm *losing* the war?
Every time I try to make peace with them since war is costly, my dialogue acts as if I'm the losing side. And I'd have to basically give them all my techs to get peace.
What? Who has their homeworld still intact? Who's got fleets of battleships dominating the stars?

Is this a bug or what? What do I have to do? Conquer every single Drengin world before the game acknowledges I'm more powerful than them?

I have this problem every time. The only civilization that ever attacks me is the Dominion of Korx. I don't know why, but I always pick random opponents and they always show up. And they always hate my guts. Even the Korath were friendly to me in my last game, yet the Korx despised me. I had Doom Ray and the best shields, pumping out ships with 16 or 32 damage, just totally kicking the crap out of them, destroying all their starbases, ships, invading their worlds, etc., and they were convinced they were winning when they hadn't even landed a single successful attack on me...

Successfully updated karma reason!

Somewhat OT, but the Korath are supposed to be "ruined" Drengin, yet they have much better racial abilities, *and* a much better Super Ability. The Drengin SA is weak, it should have more to do with the differences between the two factions and the identity of the Drengin - they are supposed to be evil slavers. So maybe something along the lines of when they conquer a planet, part of the planet's original pop remains on the planet (as slaves), and gets a Military Production bonus (when at war?). The % of pop enslaved would depend on the alignment of the conquered race - good guys tend to get slaughtered. Ideally you could have an indicator of how each race gets along with the others (storyline based), and that would be a good tool for a few other situations in the game.

Regarding the diplo flags, I got the "+ too busy to risk war with us" for the Korath when at war with them, which is kinda weird

Successfully updated karma reason!