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CosMoe
CosMoe
Join Date 06/2008
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Rewards for support players (for saving your lives)

Killing is not everything... but is rewarded most.

July 27, 2009 4:53:23 PM from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I play the QoT and use a support build which allows me to Shield my teammates a lot.

  • The downside of this build is that I usually can't kill enemy Demigods because I lack normal damage, burst damage, speed and offensive skills.
  • The upside is that I can save a lot of my teammates lives, but these saves don't get my Demigod ANYTHING (but a "ty" from the teammate).

 

Since I think that support builds should be encouraged in this type of game I think there should be some reward for saving the life of a teammate and here's my idea:

Whenever the QoT shields a teammate he starts an internal countdown (e.g. 3 seconds). When the received damage during these 3 seconds is above his health and he survives (for further 7 secs) it means that the QoT saved his life, thereby granting her a reward.

If this reward is anything like gold, experience or only counts in the statistics at the end of the game should be decided by the developers, I only suggest that it should exist but not be too much because support players should usually not wait until their teammates are almost dead.

Of course such a mechanic can be used for the Oak's Shield, Sedna's Heal and QoT's Shield.

If there were multiple heals/shields on the same player during these 10 secs only the first should be rewarded. Also there should be no rewards for healing/shielding yourself. Heal (healed health) and shield (damage absorbed) statistics would be quite interesting in the final stats of a game.

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jongalt26
CosMoe
Strongstar
Join Date 05/2009
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Reply #1 July 27, 2009 4:59:03 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

i recently started using QoT in game and I understand where you're coming from.  Unfortunately I don't really share you passion for needing to get a type of reward.

Honestly i find myself almost always having the highest assists, having a high number of flag caps, grunt kills, structure kills and almost always the lowest number of deaths.

What she lacks in offensive power she gains in staying power.

The last game I played with QoT, my team was doing so well I was able to go buy slayer wraps and actually ended up having the most kills... it was stellar if i do say so myself.

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CosMoe
Strongstar
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Reply #2 July 27, 2009 5:09:59 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Double post... b/c th eforum gets a kick out of tricking me today...

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CosMoe
Kitkun
Join Date 06/2008
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Reply #3 July 27, 2009 5:22:07 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

I'm in favor of a conbined healed/shielded/absorbed stat at the end of the game that simply totals the damage reduced.

However, I'm not in favor of an award like this:

Whenever the QoT shields a teammate he starts an internal countdown (e.g. 3 seconds). When the received damage during these 3 seconds is above his health and he survives (for further 7 secs) it means that the QoT saved his life, thereby granting her a reward.
Unfortunately, this would cause some players to hold off on the heal/shield until the last moment. Not all, but it would quickly become annoying when they try to get an award and inadvertantly let you die.

 

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CosMoe
pseudomelon
Join Date 04/2009
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Reply #4 July 27, 2009 6:12:10 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

The reward for saving your teammate is your teammate's continued presence on the battlefield, as well as the removal of the bonus gold and experience your enemy and all assisting Demis would get. In this respect, it can frequently be a better reward than a kill.

No change is needed.

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CosMoe
pseudomelon
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Reply #5 July 27, 2009 6:19:28 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

[removed double post]

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CosMoe
CosMoe
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Reply #6 July 27, 2009 6:58:42 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

_Songstar: I'm not talking about hundreds of gold or whatever, just something tiny to get more people to play support, because most of them won't without some kind of reward. Now the reward for denying a kill goes fully to the teammate you saved, even more if he gets a kill instead of dying. How many QoTs do you see that extensively uses Bramble Shields on thier teammates? One in 40 games? Less??

 

_pseudomelon, that's why I explained:

"If this reward is anything like gold, experience or only counts in the statistics at the end of the game should be decided by the developers." Moreover, you seem to play mostly damage dealer Demigods. Actually, the aim of such a reward is getting people like you to play a support Demigod.

 

For everybody else, I hope that the following graphs makes my intention more clear.

Game Stats

 

Game Stats1

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CosMoe
UnrealShadow
Join Date 06/2009
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Reply #7 July 27, 2009 9:15:13 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting Kitkun,
reply 3

Unfortunately, this would cause some players to hold of on the heal/shield until the last moment. Not all, but it would quickly become annoying when they try to get an award and inadvertantly let you die.

ofc there needs to be a countdown after the shield is gone (for like 8 sec or something) and if the demigod in question is not dead, well that means the Qot saved him.

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CosMoe
DarthKilmor
Join Date 12/2006
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Reply #8 July 27, 2009 9:16:50 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Players can always drop items for you, but not alot do so, and its somewhat wordy to always type out "Hey can someone buy me a xyz?" Until we get integrated voice chat, that is

 

What would be cool would be if you could mark items in the shop that you want.

And then when someone hovers over your char, it could show a little bit at the bottom like "Wants: boots of speed, teleport scroll" , and in the shop, it could pop up when you hover over an item: "Wanted by players: Frogboy, CosMoe".

Generous players could then buy said item for a player and the player can go to the shop and pick it up. The player would get a little msg like "CosMoe has bought you: Boots of Speed".

Might give a little depth to allow strong players to easily directly assist teammates. And if its build into the game, it would be more encouraged than simply having to drop items.

Maybe this is something that can be done with mods even?

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CosMoe
PurplePaladin
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #9 July 27, 2009 11:08:48 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

It's not just the "healing" or "save a butt" part some people don't get, you also have to spend your own gold on items & consumeables for constant mana instead of health, armor, damage items that all the other teammates can get.  I don't know about other Sedna players, but if I even try to health stack items, I run out of mana fast.

Being able to make a "shopping list" would be ok, if your very lucky enough to have generous teammates too it might work.  Seems just getting a little bit more xp/gold for healing might just be simpler.

I guess I'm spoiled by WoW; I always get an equal share of the gold/xp there even if all I ever do is heal and save butts

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CosMoe
PurplePaladin
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Reply #10 July 27, 2009 11:14:36 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

DOH!  It says it did not save my post, then double posts.

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CosMoe
mehoo462
Join Date 01/2008
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Reply #11 July 28, 2009 2:44:42 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

i think focusing your entire build exclusively around shielding another player is not an optimal way to play.  You've got 16 other points to spend, and even if you push sheild as hard as possible, you'll still have 6 points in other skills by lvl 10.

Surely you can find at least one other way to contribute to the team besides shielding players who are about to die.  The game forces you to be a little more diverse than what you are describing, and if you're not participating in that diversity and earning gold/xp/favor points in those ways then you aren't making the most of yourself on the battlefield.

 

 

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CosMoe
pseudomelon
Join Date 04/2009
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Reply #12 July 28, 2009 6:33:00 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting CosMoe,
reply 6

_pseudomelon, that's why I explained:
Moreover, you seem to play mostly damage dealer Demigods. Actually, the aim of such a reward is getting people like you to play a support Demigod.

I support with well-timed stuns and slows. 30% reduction in an opponent's speed for 3 seconds does more for a fleeing teammate than 1500 health ever will. The idea that a demigod can only support by healing or shielding is simply rediculous.

Furthermore, if we consider certain Demigods to be "support oriented" (sedna, QoT), while others focus more upon your own abilities (Regulus, UB, etc) and that the average player plays in public games with random teammates, we can assume that the average player will consistantly take a killer Demigod, instead of one which relies on the chance of getting a decent teammate. Thus, if QoT and sedna were played as frequently as other gods, we could assume a serious imbalance.

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CosMoe
mehoo462
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Reply #13 July 28, 2009 10:38:27 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

i think focusing your entire build exclusively around shielding another player is not an optimal way to play.  You've got 16 other points to spend, and even if you push sheild as hard as possible, you'll still have 6 points in other skills by lvl 10.

Surely you can find at least one other way to contribute to the team besides shielding players who are about to die.  The game forces you to be a little more diverse than what you are describing, and if you're not participating in that diversity and earning gold/xp/favor points in those ways then you aren't making the most of yourself on the battlefield.

 

 

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CosMoe
CosMoe
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Reply #14 July 28, 2009 2:00:00 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting pseudomelon,
reply 12
30% reduction in an opponent's speed for 3 seconds does more for a fleeing teammate than 1500 health ever will.

Generally speaking, don't you think that there's something wrong with the game if an "offensive skill" outweights the advantage of a "support skill" for your teammates?

 

Quoting pseudomelon,
reply 12
...we can assume that the average player will consistantly take a killer Demigod, instead of one which relies on the chance of getting a decent teammate.

Which would change if active support skills which cost you a lot of mana and have absolutely no advantage for you if you use them on your teammates would get you some tiny reward. The better you support your team (and therefore abstain form doing damage yourself) the better your Demigod should get (at least in the stats, similarly to the "Citadel Upgrades" stat). This would encourage real teamplay, not the kind of ganking that accounts for most of the "teamplay" I witness in Demigod now.

 

Quoting pseudomelon,
reply 12
Thus, if QoT and sedna were played as frequently as other gods, we could assume a serious imbalance.

     Wow.

 

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CosMoe
JagerJack
Join Date 04/2009
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Reply #15 July 28, 2009 2:36:13 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting pseudomelon,
reply 12
30% reduction in an opponent's speed for 3 seconds does more for a fleeing teammate than 1500 health ever will.

Unless the enemy has a powerfull ranged skill(Spit, Fireball, Penitence, Snipe) or slows/stuns of their own....

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CosMoe
SoFFacet
Join Date 02/2008
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Reply #16 July 28, 2009 2:46:10 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting CosMoe,
reply 14
Generally speaking, don't you think that there's something wrong with the game if an "offensive skill" outweights the advantage of a "support skill" for your teammates? 

First of all I don't believe that a 30% slow on 1 target will often be more useful than 1500 HP. But anyways, Snares are not purely "offensive." They are "utility" skills, meaning they can be used either offensively or defensively. 

As per the OP, I play "support" all time and I don't mind not having a favor award for it. My reward is winning the game.  

 

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CosMoe
pseudomelon
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Reply #17 July 28, 2009 5:33:27 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting JagerJack,
reply 15

Quoting pseudomelon, reply 12 30% reduction in an opponent's speed for 3 seconds does more for a fleeing teammate than 1500 health ever will.
Unless the enemy has a powerfull ranged skill(Spit, Fireball, Penitence, Snipe) or slows/stuns of their own....

The idea would be to slow or stun the enemy long enough to remove your ally from range and/or interrupt their finishing blow. Most stuns also last long enough at max level for a quick TP out.

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CosMoe
JagerJack
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Reply #18 July 28, 2009 6:00:52 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting pseudomelon,
reply 17
The idea would be to slow or stun the enemy long enough to remove your ally from range and/or interrupt their finishing blow. Most stuns also last long enough at max level for a quick TP out.

Most stuns/interrupts have either have a limited range(foul grasp, pounce) or a fairly long and noticable cast time(frost nova, mass charm) when compared to ranged skills. The only stuns/interrupts that would be reliable against a ranged skill are penitence, deep freeze, and boulder roll(although the near instant cast of spit and penitence means boulder roll has little chance of interrupting them at range).

A slow isn't going to stop me from casting a skill, since you only need to be in range when I actually activate it. It would only stop some of my AA damage.

Finally, none of this is going to stop Regulus from backing off and casting Snipe from behind his towers. Or from him just casting Snipe from another lane after his ally did the damage.

 

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CosMoe
pseudomelon
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Reply #19 July 28, 2009 10:30:10 PM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting JagerJack,
reply 18

Quoting pseudomelon, reply 17The idea would be to slow or stun the enemy long enough to remove your ally from range and/or interrupt their finishing blow. Most stuns also last long enough at max level for a quick TP out.
Most stuns/interrupts have either have a limited range(foul grasp, pounce) or a fairly long and noticable cast time(frost nova, mass charm) when compared to ranged skills. The only stuns/interrupts that would be reliable against a ranged skill are penitence, deep freeze, and boulder roll(although the near instant cast of spit and penitence means boulder roll has little chance of interrupting them at range).

A slow isn't going to stop me from casting a skill, since you only need to be in range when I actually activate it. It would only stop some of my AA damage.

Finally, none of this is going to stop Regulus from backing off and casting Snipe from behind his towers. Or from him just casting Snipe from another lane after his ally did the damage.

 

This is assuming I've utterly failed to help my teammate until his health is critical. A single heal wouldn't be fantastic in a situation where a character needs to run for any extended period of time, whereas a stun or slow would. A slow beast/regulus who can stalk someone all the way to the base is a good example of this. But I'm dragging us off topic.

The point is, the reward for support is your teammate not dying. To give a gold bonus would just lend itself to abuse: I could quite easily sit there tanking a tower until my health was moderately low, let sedna heal me, walk away, and generate gold. Furthermore, Sedna (one of the two "support" characters) is already deemed by many to be in the top couple Demis. Perhaps we should look for a way to buff QoT, rather than push sedna over the edge to being overpowered.

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CosMoe
CosMoe
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Reply #20 July 29, 2009 5:26:02 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting pseudomelon,
reply 19

To give a gold bonus would just lend itself to abuse: I could quite easily sit there tanking a tower until my health was moderately low, let sedna heal me, walk away, and generate gold. Furthermore, Sedna (one of the two "support" characters) is already deemed by many to be in the top couple Demis. Perhaps we should look for a way to buff QoT, rather than push sedna over the edge to being overpowered.

True that. The problem with the QoT as support is that you need to be in closed mode always because the switch time is very long. In closed mode you don't have a damage spell like Sedna's Pounce and the Shield skill gets worse each level, therefore the QoT support build is very very unpopular. In my 130 games I have seen maybe 2 other QoTs who Shield their teammates...

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CosMoe
Savaros
Join Date 05/2009
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Reply #21 July 29, 2009 6:01:11 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

i think we should part with the idea of gold bonus, but simply enhancing the statistics by damage healed/mitigated would be nice. i play my Sedna very supportive lately and understand where you are coming from. unlike QOT Sedna doesnt even have a ranged attack, which means that often i might even miss out on assists(it becomes increasingly difficult to target the right demigod for a heal the more there are clustered in one place, avoiding aes/stuns or getting ganked etc.). Overall im happy with supporting, but some support statistics(wether or not they give rewards) would definitively be nice.

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CosMoe
pseudomelon
Join Date 04/2009
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Reply #22 July 29, 2009 6:41:00 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Quoting Savaros,
reply 21
i think we should part with the idea of gold bonus, but simply enhancing the statistics by damage healed/mitigated would be nice. i play my Sedna very supportive lately and understand where you are coming from. unlike QOT Sedna doesnt even have a ranged attack, which means that often i might even miss out on assists(it becomes increasingly difficult to target the right demigod for a heal the more there are clustered in one place, avoiding aes/stuns or getting ganked etc.). Overall im happy with supporting, but some support statistics(wether or not they give rewards) would definitively be nice.

I wouldn't mind if they made a statistic for healing/shielding, but I think it (the shielding part at least) would be difficult to code. I definitely wouldn't want to see a statistic for "saves", because I know people would try to hold out to the last minute to get that point (like how people buy loads of upgrades at the end of the match )

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CosMoe
HorseStrangler
Join Date 05/2009
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Reply #23 July 30, 2009 2:04:59 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

Well the problem with these kinds of rewards is that they would always go to QoT/Sedna, and would only see competition if multiple players picked those DGs, which is to say they would be fairly non-competitive compared to the other awards everyone competes for.

I suggest a different approach:

Name a different award something like "triage," something ambiguous, have it tally all health absorbed, stolen, healed, and regenerated together, and attribute those heals and shields to their casters. That way everyone would have a fair shot but it would still be slanted towards the support DGs as awards like damage are slanted against them but are still not unattainable.

So the idea would be that even UB or Regulus could theoretically win with enough lifesteal/health regen (overheal wouldn't count of course) but would be unlikely to do so if a Sedna were actually playing a support role, and that way just going sedna/QoT and not really healing anyone at all wouldn't net you free favor points just for showing up.

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CosMoe
Invisible_XXV
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Reply #24 August 2, 2009 6:02:37 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums
signed! i suggested this some months ago ^^ but good idea with the calculation of the award, i didnt think that far
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CosMoe
CosMoe
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Reply #25 September 12, 2009 7:23:45 AM
from Demigod ForumsDemigod Forums

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