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TheDarkKnight2008
TheDarkKnight2008
Join Date 04/2007
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Thalan story needs revisions... Bad.

July 9, 2008 1:10:36 PM from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

I understand it's a game, but the story being setup like this is sooooo common.

Thalans say humans destroy universe.  They want to stop them.

So.... They go back to 2225?  What, so they can give them a chance to fight, setting up the game series?!

Why not go back to the 15th century, blow up earth.  Or land on it, make them think your God and make earth your slaves.

Couldn't this have a more interesting story?

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TheDarkKnight2008
kryo
Join Date 05/2003
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Reply #1 July 9, 2008 1:36:15 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Destroying humanity in its entirety would also prevent them from doing any good (fusion, hyperdrive, etc). So it only makes sense to go to the pivotal time when they 'went bad', to turn them around.
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TheDarkKnight2008
TheDarkKnight2008
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Reply #2 July 9, 2008 1:43:15 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
Eh, but wouldn't giving them a chance also give them a chance to destroy the galaxy?

If I was faced with this choice, I'd give up fusion and hyperdrive to stop them.

Why fight them anyway, if they destroy the universe? Anger begets anger, hate begets hate. Why not appear as diplomats, or spiritual advisors yourself? It seems to me that fighting the humans would end up with them destroying the universe faster, or even the Thalans destroying it while trying to stop them.

I get that that's probably what their doing, but it's not explained too well in the dialog. It seems their more trying to kill you then help.

Besides, wouldn't any major past time change destroy the space-time continuum?
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TheDarkKnight2008
bhosp
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Reply #3 July 9, 2008 2:18:27 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
You're sounding like Scott Evil, there.
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TheDarkKnight2008
AgentSmith512
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Reply #4 July 9, 2008 2:43:02 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Time travel makes no sense...

If the Thalans stop the humans from destroying the universe then they wouldn't have had to go back in time to stop the humans. But if they failed to stop the humans from destroying the universe then they would have to go back in time so the universe is doomed no matter what the Thalans do because their existence in 2225 means that the universe is destroyed in the future, otherwise they wouldn't have come back to stop it. But if the Thalans perpetually go back in time every time the universe ends (or when the universe ends because it only happens once) then wouldn't they clue in that they can't win and that they as a race would always OH NO I'VE GONE CROSS-EYED.
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TheDarkKnight2008
Loupdinour
Join Date 11/2006
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Reply #5 July 9, 2008 4:44:31 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Destroying humanity in its entirety would also prevent them from doing any good (fusion, hyperdrive, etc). So it only makes sense to go to the pivotal time when they 'went bad', to turn them around.


Or just gack them after they do those pivotal things.

----------
A Terran scientist sends a vidcom message out to the stars "Behold galaxy, I give you fusion reactors and the hyperdrive. Go forth and multipl...~gurgle~" Terran scientist fall out of the frame.

Vidcom message shakes a bit and we see a bug-like arm reach in and turn off the signal.
----------

Why pull the Dr Evil approach and place the Terrans in a small room guarded by one lone incompetent guard when you could just blow them up?

It's 2225, the Terrans have done their deed to the galaxy...time to eliminate them before this deadline of 5 years from now. Ok, let them do their thing with the Dread Lords...which perhaps become the Dread Lords? So let them defeat themselves...

GAH just do asI said above, let them leash the hyperdrive out to the galaxy THEN gack them before they mobilize and pop to another dimension. Haven't the ZYW games people play taught us anything?
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TheDarkKnight2008
Lheim
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Reply #6 July 10, 2008 1:34:19 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Or just gack them after they do those pivotal things


Which is exactly what they're doing by showing up in 2225.

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TheDarkKnight2008
TheDarkKnight2008
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Reply #7 July 10, 2008 1:55:29 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
...
To give them a way to fight back, a very cliche way to set up the game?
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TheDarkKnight2008
Phaedyme
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Reply #8 July 10, 2008 4:04:36 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Destroying humanity in its entirety would also prevent them from doing any good (fusion, hyperdrive, etc). So it only makes sense to go to the pivotal time when they 'went bad', to turn them around.


Most importantly, it would prevent them from putting the Dread Lords and Korath clan down like dogs.

While not as bad as destroying the universe, that is still a fairly bad outcome.
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TheDarkKnight2008
Loupdinour
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Reply #9 July 10, 2008 8:25:55 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Unless the Humans led by Alan Bradly ARE the Dread Lords come back in time...
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TheDarkKnight2008
Yukhar
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Reply #10 July 10, 2008 9:48:29 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
As far as I read (e.g. in the manual), the Thalans wanted to travel back in time far beyond 2225. They just failed (time travel is complicated after all, or so I've heard).
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TheDarkKnight2008
Loupdinour
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Reply #11 July 10, 2008 10:01:29 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Some reason I thought they arrived 5 years too early than the event they wished to stop.
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TheDarkKnight2008
Phaedyme
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Reply #12 July 10, 2008 11:28:53 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
They arrived five years too early, per Brad.

Loupdinour, something that the Thalan have no way of knowing. But let's assume they do: Preventing Alan Bradley from going back in time and becoming Draginol means that he never does anything to the Telenanth, causing it to explode, change the laws of physics, and cause intelligent life to come into being ... in which case, there'd never be any Thalan Empire, nor any Altarians, Drath, Drengin, etc.

Destroying humanity before the Dread Lords return (and before humanity kicks them back to Hell) would screw the entire universe over in more ways than just losing fusion power and hyperdrive.
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TheDarkKnight2008
Loupdinour
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Reply #13 July 10, 2008 11:52:58 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Aye, my eyes went crossed. Darn that time travel paradox!!!
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TheDarkKnight2008
pndrev
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Reply #14 July 10, 2008 12:54:18 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Yes, best leave time travel to the professionals.
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TheDarkKnight2008
shiva7663
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Reply #15 July 10, 2008 1:45:04 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
It's not a paradox; in fact, the best use of time travel to fix a problem in the past is one where the resultant timestream has absolutely no further access to time travel. Do it once, do it right. I think perhaps that the Thalans are not sufficiently omniscient to be able to check their work before the final commit; nor are they sufficiently omnipotent to make the correct edit.
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TheDarkKnight2008
KzintiPatriarch
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Reply #16 July 10, 2008 1:50:12 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Or just gack them after they do those pivotal things

I like that term, gack...it sounds quick, nasty, and messy.

Kzinti empire2.JPG Sentient species taste better...

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TheDarkKnight2008
Loupdinour
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Reply #17 July 10, 2008 2:05:27 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Ya, walk into the room holdin' yer Glock sideways, gack the Terrans and move on. Why bother playing with them? Sounds like something a cat would do...

KP when did you ascend to the throne of the Thalans?
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TheDarkKnight2008
Meserach
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Reply #18 July 10, 2008 3:09:28 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
It strikes me that what actually needs revising is the text that pops up when you start a Thalan game (you know, the "Sistersssss, Brotherssssss" stuff) which at present does not at all acknowledge that they've come from the future. Same for the text they get when they build their first colony, etc.
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TheDarkKnight2008
rakenan
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Reply #19 July 15, 2008 10:13:48 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
It's not a paradox; in fact, the best use of time travel to fix a problem in the past is one where the resultant timestream has absolutely no further access to time travel. Do it once, do it right. I think perhaps that the Thalans are not sufficiently omniscient to be able to check their work before the final commit; nor are they sufficiently omnipotent to make the correct edit.


Reminds me of Larry Niven's essay on time travel, where he stated his Law of Time Travel. "If time travel is possible in a universe, and history can be changed through it, then no method of time travel will ever be invented in that universe."

As long as at least one time machine gets invented, somebody's going to go back and change something, and by chaos theory, the effects of that change will eventually propagate to the rest of the universe, essentially undoing literally everything that is and starting over from the point of intervention. This will continue until the universe eventually settles in the only steady state possible in such a situation - a complete absense of time travel.

GC2 seems to avoid this by having history fixed, as far as we can tell. That is, Draginol didn't change anything, he went back and time and did the things he already did, his actions were incorporated into the future events that ended up creating him. There's no evidence that the Thalans have managed to change anything either - although they certainly seem to be trying. Looks like the universe is doomed.
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TheDarkKnight2008
BarneyStinson
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Reply #20 July 17, 2008 12:07:01 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
They not only time traveled, but came from another dimension as well. How do you know what physical laws are in play in this dimension, or how time flows there? YOU DON'T KNOW MAN!! lol put away your philosophical magnifying glass and leave the bug dudes alone.
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TheDarkKnight2008
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Reply #21 July 17, 2008 4:51:28 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
You do know the popular theory that going in time creates an alternate universe of the one your in?

That's probably the 'dimension they came from'. The future.

If it's an alternate universe, wouldn't it be useless to stop the humans, as all your doing is stopping them in the new universe, even though they destroyed the universe in the old universe?

If time travel doesn't create an alternate universe, isn't it useless to stop them, as the space-time continuum would destroy and the galaxy would self destruct?
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TheDarkKnight2008
manbear
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Reply #22 July 18, 2008 11:24:28 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
Time travel is impossible because it assumes:

A: We have no free will and all things are predestined.
B: If all things are predestined, then they can't be changed.

So to make time travel possible makes itself impossible.

The only thing that is possible is to observe the past or the future but not interact with it. The Thalans in this case could see what was happening but could do nothing about it.

Now if the universe is not predestined, then going back in time, the timeline would be completely different when you get there. Say 2000 years ago in your history there was a great war between two competing civilisations. You go back in time and they are best friends. Your thinking then wouldn't that change my history? No because the universe has no memory.

The universe is only about probabilities and the further in the past or future you go, the more varient it becomes from your expectations. Time flows in both directions from point zero or this "instance". Think of it as time flows away from you in all directions. This means that if you only go back in time or into the future by a small degree it will be highly like your current universe. Going in time by a great deal would make it highly unlike your current existence.

The amount of "drift" from time zero is anybodies guess. The current theory of time travel assumes a drift=0 scenario but that is not the only possibility and if time travel (interaction + observation) is possible, then drift > 0 is the logical conclusion.

In this case, even if the Thalans stop the humans in the past, it is a futile exercise because it won't change their time zero. They will be destroyed, the humans will be destroyed. In fact, destroying the humans in their past might create the very event they wish to avoid! Wrap your mind around that one.   
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TheDarkKnight2008
Phaedyme
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Reply #23 July 18, 2008 5:32:41 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I don't know, there's a lot of theory about how time travel just might be possible.

Perhaps not in the way the Thalans did it, but they're gazillions of years ahead of us and probably know things we do not.

Also, many worlds is another way to account for what you're talking about without removing free will or requiring predestination.
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TheDarkKnight2008
Publius of NV
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Reply #24 July 20, 2008 2:29:26 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Those of you interested in time travel might enjoy the short story "Wikihistory", found here.
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TheDarkKnight2008
phoenixpaw
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Reply #25 July 20, 2008 3:23:22 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums
Hold on here a second ...

The Thalans -CLAIM- they come from the future.
Do they have proof of it? (I haven't seen any ... but then I haven't played Thalan yet with Twilight.)

Maybe they're just travellers from a galaxy, far, far away, and they created the hoax of "humans will destroy the universe, we have seen it in the future we come from" just to get everyone fighting each other for/against humanity so they can swoop in and pick up the spoils.

Any logical faults in that view of their story?
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