thehandofzarquon

Join Date 09/2006

THZ's Yor Mod

TA Beta 4 - v0.2 available

External Link

Edit: v0.2 is available for download. See readme for changes.

Well, I know it is a bit premature to be modding Twilight of the Arnor, but I just couldn't help myself! Think of it as me beta testing the beta's modding capabilities.

Anyway, I've uploaded my mod for the Yor. The basic goal was to make the Yor Collective... well, more "Collective"-like, alien, and interesting.

Here's a list of changes (copied straight out of the readme):

-All Yor unique Techs aren't tradeable or able to be stolen.

-The Yor's propulsion tree ends with Impulse Drives. However, they now have two more Stellar Stream techs. The first one is also cheaper to research.

-Collectives now produce both Production and Research, with lesser amounts of Research. The maintaince is a little higher on them, but it is better than any other race.

-Also, all Collectives produce 1 food each. Don't worry, there is a way to manage your population to make sure it doesn't get too high (at a cost, of course).

-The Yor, obviously, no longer have the traditional Research tree. Instead, the have a small tree that gives slight bonuses to Research, Creativity, as well as some research boosting buildings (including the Tech Capital), all leading up to the Tech Victory line.

-The Research Matrix now gives +25% research instead of +12 research, but is not available from the beginning.

-The Manufacturing Vortex now gives +25% Production for the same cost.

-The Distributed Energy Matrix gives +75% Production for the same cost.

-Cybernetic History gives +20 range. Also, The Spark of Life techs also give +range bonuses.

-The Yor don't have the Traditional Life Support techs. The Charging Stalk techs give them Support modules, however.They are slightly better than the tradtional modules, but more expensive.

-Charging Stalk techs are slightly more expensive to research. The first one now requires the first Spark of Life tech.

-The Charging Stalks now give +Morale and +Pop Growth (instead of +Food). The Basic Charging Stalk's Morale bonus was boosted to +10.

-The Maintaince Grid now gives +10 Economy and +10 Morale instead of +20 Morale

-The Efficiency Techs all give +10 Economy and +2 Morale, but are slightly more expensive to research.

-The Efficiency Center is now an upgrade to the Maintaince Grid.

-The Efficiency Center now gives +25 Economy and +25 Morale.

-The Terror Drone bonuses to Soldiering are boosted slightly.

-The Yor have to research the Traditional Tier 1 weapon techs, then their unique Tier 1 weapon techs before moving on to Higher Tiers. (I intended for the Iconians to have the same drawback, but forgot to remove it for this particular release. It also needs to be a little better integrated...)

-New Planetary Improvements:

Yor Recycling Centers - Recycle those excess, useless Yor to gain a bonus to efficiency (economy) and production. Your citizens might not appreciate the use of the building though...

-New Tech Lines:

Compliance Algorithms - Increase the Loyalty and Morale of your citizens by reprogramming them. Also lets you make better use of the Recycling Centers, without all the messy consequences (eventually).

Assimilation - Research how to integrate those pathetic Organics a little better into the Yor network. Being able to be a citizen proper (and not just killed and replaced with a Yor unit) makes the Yor a little more tempting to rebel to... (increases Influence)

Specialized Soldiers - Modify your Yor units specifically for easy transportation and combat efficiency!
Gives a bonus to Soldiering and Courage, as well as a 1500 Troop Module.

Sentient Ships - Skip the bulky, confusing control mechanisms of ships and directly integrate Yor minds into your ships! Increase their efficiency, and even let them repair themselves!

Some notes on things I'm unsure about in this version:

While I like the idea of Collectives being a catch-all building for the Yor, I'm concerned that there will be less "strategy" with regards to planet design and the Yor. There really isn't that many less planet design decisions to be made than the default TA Yor have (splitting the Collectives into Manufacturing Collectives and Research Collectives would give just about as many planet design decisions, if not the same). I'm also unsure of how it really affects their production/research capabilities, either.

I'm quite pleased with how the Collectives giving "food" affects the Yor's image as a Collective. However, given GalCiv 2's massive morale penalties past 19 billion people, it could potentially be difficult to manage populations. The Recycling Center was added to help manage max Population limits, but at a cost. Is -3 max pop enough to keep Max pop's below 19bil in most situations? Does the building provide enough compensation for the Morale penalty it inflicts (note, this is lowered, and eventually eliminated by the Compliance Algorithms techs)?

How does having the research two different sets of Tier 1 weapons before moving on to higher Tiers really affect the Yor's military capabilities?

Lastly, I have a horrible sinking feeling that I may have thrown too many bones to the Yor while making this mod. Sentient Ships/Self Repair in particular stand out as something that isn't really needed by the Yor. Maybe the Assimilation techs, too.

Anyway, if you are unhappy with the way the Yor are presented in TA currently, then go ahead and give my mod a try! And please, leave feedback of any kind!

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hmm, just from reading the detials it seems to make them pretty powerful, but who cares, just means I'll ramp up the difficulty. I like the recycling centres and most of the changes seem to make sense. I'll try it out now.

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hey, major problem, the new tech lines aren't there although the new techs in old lines are.

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I have to say, the negative population for positive boosts idea is pretty handy.

I may borrow it for some of the more evil races in my custom setup, too... well done.

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hey, major problem, the new tech lines aren't there although the new techs in old lines are.

Wait, what exactly do you mean by this? Things like "Advanced Stellar Streams" shows up, but "Compliance Algorithms" doesn't?

Did you put the "Yor_TechTree2.xml" file into the Twilight\Data\English\TechTrees folder? Beta 4 won't recognize custom Tech Tree files from the Mod folder in Beta 4.

Also, make sure to backup and delete "Yor Collective.customracexml" from My Documents\My Games\GC2TwilightArnor too.

I have to say, the negative population for positive boosts idea is pretty handy.

I may borrow it for some of the more evil races in my custom setup, too... well done.

Thanks! I like the feel it gives the Yor too: they are all about efficiency, and if you don't meet their quota... well, you'll "become" useful, won't you?

Glad you like the idea!

As a side note... I just noticed that I forgot to mention that I moved the Mining Starbase Modules to the Space Mining tech in the above post. It was in the readme, though....

Also, there are some optional changes to the base Tech Tree to make certain techs (Life Support, Farming techs, etc) not tradeable included too... see the readme for more details on that...

Can't believe I forgot to mention either of those.

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let me rephrase, the techs like compliance algorithms, stellar streams, the assimilation and sentient ships don't appear on the tech tree but updated techs like efficiency studies with the +2 morale and all those techs work, along with all the buildings. Old techs like the warp drives which should be removed are still there. It seems to be that the individual techs have changed but the tech tree remains the same "shape" with no added lines.
I've triple checked i've installed it correctly.
It's playable without the new techs anyway and it's very fun. The all in one collectives with food is a good idea and seems to work well with recycling centres. I thought that it would take up too many squares but it doesn't in reality. When I first tried the new yor when they put them in the beta I was very dissapointed with them but this makes them much better. The mod does give it a more alien feel, although a bit overpowering (but I can always just raise the difficulty level so 9it doesn't matter in the end).

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It sounds like you didn't delete the "Yor Collective.customracexml" file before starting a new game. That's the only explanation I can think of.

The *.customracexml files store what Tech Tree the race in question uses, and there is no way to change this in game for the 12 standard races. So if you played the Yor before in the Beta, it will look to Yor_TechTree.xml instead of YorTechTree2.xml.

Try deleting "Yor Collective.customracexml" from "\My Documents\My Games\GC2TwilightArnor" and then start a new game.

If the mod is enabled, and the Yor_TechTree2.xml file isn't installed correctly, then the Yor will not have any starting techs listed on the race selection screen. If the file is installed correctly, then they will.

In any case, I'll try installing the mod on a clean install of TA Beta 4 on my laptop. If it won't work there, even with proper install, then I'll see if I can't figure out why it works on my desktop, but not there...

It's playable without the new techs anyway and it's very fun. The all in one collectives with food is a good idea and seems to work well with recycling centres. I thought that it would take up too many squares but it doesn't in reality. When I first tried the new yor when they put them in the beta I was very dissapointed with them but this makes them much better. The mod does give it a more alien feel, although a bit overpowering (but I can always just raise the difficulty level so 9it doesn't matter in the end).

Glad you like it!

What exactly do you feel is overpowered about them? Any thoughts on how to fix this?

Again, I'll see if I can get it to run on my laptop...

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I'll give this a try once the new patch is up. I don't think I've played any race more than the Yor in beta so far, so this should be interesting.

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Hey, got it working, I had renamed the yor collective to something else in the race.config and forgot about it so Yor Collective.customracexml was named differently. I've discovered that the new troop transport modules don't work, when I try to launch the ship it comes up with the thing that lets you select how many troops but it says that there are no available troops.
I think that there isn't really one tech that makes them overpowered, it's just that there seems to be lots of little good techs that all add up to overpowerdom. it's very hard to correct that without removing some of the techs though.

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DivineWrath

Join Date 05/2006

+135

I have been working on something similiar to what you are doing with having industry and research being done using the same structures. I'll provide you with some of my insight.

1. Expect multi-purpose structures to be more powerful than you think.

Lets look at things from this perspective (DA's perspective). You get income that you can spend on things. From there, you spending is normally split between research, and industry (because of research centers and factories). Then you have maintaince costs and upkeep. All of these do a good job at draining your economy.

Because of the limit of number of tiles you can have, and the fact that you may wish to build other things other than factories and research centers, you can be only be expected to be really good in research, industry, or moderately good in both. To change what you are good at, you have to replace structures, a process that takes time and money. However, having multi-purpose collectives allows you to make the switch by only changing the sliders.

Have you heard of the all factory, or all research tactic where you focus when you want to do another task. Well the multi-purpose collectives gives you better results since focusing only gives you so much.

2. Over spending.

Because you can change your specialty by changing your spending, you can expect to be spending large amounts of money at all times. In fact, setting spending in one category to 100% would probally result in the biggest drain than a more balanced approach would. You could run into problems of needing to reduce spending so you don't run out of money. Given that the Yor have a limited economy, this could cause problems.

I already ran into that problem by testing my material in DA.

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Possible solutions.

You could have the ability to switch output types at short notice as their specialty. My understanding is, no other race is currently able to do this, so make the Yor good at it. To compensate, their structures shouldn't be able get as high output as the other civs (atleast, not without costs). Their structures might be good at both research and industry, but they are a master of neither.

Another possibility is to increase the maintiance costs, so you are always paying for the advantage of being able to switch at a moments notice. The problem with this one is, the Yor don't have the ability to build multiple economic structures without tech trading, so this one might not work well.

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Well, good luck with it.

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I've discovered that the new troop transport modules don't work, when I try to launch the ship it comes up with the thing that lets you select how many troops but it says that there are no available troops.

Well, crap. I'll try to see if there is something wrong with it, but it might just be something that's hard coded to the Advanced Troop Module. Probably is, given that I copied the advanced troop module's properties and then changed the capacity.... also, I'm getting a strange feeling in my mind that I actually read about someone trying something similar to this before and it not working. Hrm....

Ah well... I'll just change it be the Advanced Troop Module. *scratches an idea off his list of Torian changes too...*

I think that there isn't really one tech that makes them overpowered, it's just that there seems to be lots of little good techs that all add up to overpowerdom. it's very hard to correct that without removing some of the techs though.

Yeah, I know. I admit, my bias towards the Yor is probably showing up a lot more in this mod than I want to admit

While I certainly agree with Brad on his opinions on nerfing... this mod really isn't in a position concept wise to raising the power of the other races. I'll be stripping off some bonuses here and there.

1. Expect multi-purpose structures to be more powerful than you think.

Yep, as much as I like the idea of a catch all building for the Yor, I've had my reservations about it being truely catch all from the beginning. It does work well in practice, just a bit... too well, doesn't it? It would probably work better as a once-per-planet building deal.

Perhaps that's why the Thalans are no longer focused on multi-purpose buildings?

Have you heard of the all factory, or all research tactic where you focus when you want to do another task. Well the multi-purpose collectives gives you better results since focusing only gives you so much.

What regular of the GalCiv 2 boards hasn't?

I find it far too "metagamey" of a tactic. I wonder how the nerf to the Focus buttons affected this.... haven't seen anyone comment on that yet.

2. Over spending.

Because you can change your specialty by changing your spending, you can expect to be spending large amounts of money at all times. In fact, setting spending in one category to 100% would probally result in the biggest drain than a more balanced approach would. You could run into problems of needing to reduce spending so you don't run out of money.

Yep, I understand that, although, I admit, I never really thought about it either.

Given that the Yor have a limited economy, this could cause problems.

Granted, I only play on Painful or Tough, but, honestly, I've never really had a problem with their economy for very long in a game.

Their economy techs are very, very cheap to research and provide +45 Economics total (+50 in this mod). That's just about equivalent to 2 stock exchanges (or one of the +50 building the Iconians get...) on every planet, without using the space.

And you get the Efficiency Center too, +25%, no maintenance, even at one per planet, as early as you (can) get it in the game is nothing to snuff at.Their Collectives are pretty low maintenance in Beta 4 too.

Still, I haven't played them unmodded with the recent changes to Ship Maintenance, though. I probably should, though.

I also just realized today how much maintenance costs of buildings shot up in the latest Beta too. Especially Research ones. Yeesh. The maintenance costs for the Collectives in my mod were a huge advantage compared to the other races...

You could have the ability to switch output types at short notice as their specialty. My understanding is, no other race is currently able to do this, so make the Yor good at it.

It's a good idea, but the only real way (correct me if I'm mistaken) would for the buildings to be very low cost, so as to speed up their construction. Doing it this way would make them be able to build up planets very quickly at first too, not just switch later.

Keeping the cost of the building the same regardless of its "Tech Level" might work too (since you are likely to have higher amounts of production by that point).

Also, every race can already get this effect pretty easily by adjusting the slider... hrm...

In any case, I'm pretty much set at this point in splitting the Collectives into Manufacturing and Research ones, both with their own separate maintenance costs. Crap for research (The Research equivalent of the Iconian's Replicators, even), low for Manufacturing.

Well, good luck with it.

Same to you with your projects!

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DivineWrath

Join Date 05/2006

+135

You must be talking about making a custom colony module. I forget which post it was (long time ago), but it also didn't work.

Yeah, the initial colony does fill that role quite well...

Understandably, you are competing with it from day one if you are making multi-purpose structures.

Their economy techs are very, very cheap to research and provide +45 Economics total (+50 in this mod). That's just about equivalent to 2 stock exchanges (or one of the +50 building the Iconians get...) on every planet, without using the space.

And you get the Efficiency Center too, +25%, no maintenance, even at one per planet, as early as you (can) get it in the game is nothing to snuff at.Their Collectives are pretty low maintenance in Beta 4 too.

No, its not equal to 2 stock exchanges. If you researched all governments and some of the economy techs, you would get the same bonuses. The government techs give you a better form of government (which in its most advanced form is +30% economy), and the economy techs gives you a +15% economy (+10% from "Xeno Economics" and +5% from "Xeno Bank Construction"). The bonuses you get from the efficiency techs is equal to the bonuses you lost.

Its one of the issues I have with the Yor, is they didn't get an equal trade. They get their efficiency techs, which can be researched quickly, but they lost out on economic structures. Sure they don't have to deal with the government elections, but some players have observed that you only have to worry about morale one election day. You can tax your people to hell until you need the votes, then you make false promises.

Well, good luck with it.

Same to you with your projects!

Will do.

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This is true, but one thing you have to be careful with is that these Techs are untradeable. While the Yor are perfectly capable of trading (or stealing, but that's not as reliable) for the Government techs and Stock Exchanges, etc, no one else will be capable of getting the extra +45 Economics they get.

Conversely, in games without Tech Trading, you do have to make sure their Economy can stand on its own... it's a difficult thing to balance, no?

As for the Elections, I really do wish they would be based off the Average Morale for the year rather than the morale at the time the election takes place.

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I've posted a new version of my mod. It should be available for download once approved. See the readme for the changes made.

This will probably be the last version of this I put up for a while, barring any errors I might have missed, comments/suggestions are still welcome, though.

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