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Mongius Maximus

Join Date 03/2006

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I need major economic help.

Ok, this is a first for me, I don't usually post on forums very often, but I'm at the end of my rope.

I have been playing Galciv2 ( no expansion ) infrequently since it came out, and never had any problems whatsoever, I was always able to kick the AI's butt. But after a lapse of about six months and a new patch, I find myself completely unable to manage my economy. I can't make it past the first or second night of play with out giving up in frustration. I seem to always be losing vast amounts of money, for reasons I don't understand.

I always play as the Terran Alliance for asthetic reasons, and I spend the first 5 or 6 turns rush-building colony ships and snaging all the planets I can before my treasury runs out. I always que up at least 2 factories on every planet and at least one of every other improvement, and usually extra stock markets and the like. I notice that my colonies all have higher expenses then they do reveunes, but I thought this would change as my worlds developed and completed their social projects... WRONG. All my colonies are fully developed and I am still losing money hand over fist at the rate of at least several hundred BC a turn. Even with Taxes at a 100%, and industrial spending a 0%.

I am at a loss, any advice anyone could share would be greatly appreciated.

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Hi!

I spend the first 5 or 6 turns rush-building colony ships

Sorry, but that's a death warrant. Don't rush-buy more than one ship. Better buy/build 5 factories and in 5 turns start producing a colonizer each second year for the next 30 turns or so, while still holding most your colonies at 100% approval to get 100% boost to their pop growth.

BR, Iztok

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It's true that the player's economy has been seriously hobbled in the last few updates. It has been an adjustment for everyone. Your case sounds pretty serious; help us out with some more details, Mongius. Such as:

What difficulty level are you playing?

What are your race ability scores for morale and economics?

Have you bought improvements or starships on installment? If you contract to Mitrosoft to build everything, for instance, you will be paying off that debt every turn for a long time.

What population levels do your fully developed planets have?

What is your average approval rating? If you're trying to keep approval at 100% for a long period of time in the early game, for instance, your income will suffer greatly.

Do you have any specialized econ planets, or are you developing all of your planets in a 'balanced' fashion?

There are other factors, but these are the most important ones I could think of.

Edit: Iztoc's right - factories are a better buy. I tend to leave social production at about 20% and use rush buy to fill my home world with basic factories - or to build six factories if I start with that tech. Once you have that, colony ships and whatever else you need will roll out every few turns (usually three turns for me because I like to keep up my research even during the colony rush).

Spore. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every motherfrakker in the galaxy. Accept no substitutes.

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All my colonies are fully developed and I am still losing money hand over fist at the rate of at least several hundred BC a turn. Even with Taxes at a 100%, and industrial spending a 0%.

You are losing all your people. If your taxes are at 100%, your people are dying, and that is how you are losing money. Lower that tax rate. Counter-intuitively you get higher taxes with a tax rate at 69%-79% then you do at 100% after just a few game turns.

Hope that helps.

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There have been a number of changes that can account for this. It really depends on what rev of the game you're used to playing and what rev of the game you're currently playing.

Also the size of the map and your specific setting make a big difference. It sounds like the map is on the small side if you're colony rush lasts only 5 or 6 turns.

Anyway, the maintenance for the initial colony has been increased. In v1.4 it's 12 bc per week. Actually the maintenance costs of a lot of buildings have increased. There are also possibily some differences in how income is calculated as well. In smallish galaxies rush buying factories is not that bad to do but the larger the galaxy the worse an idea this is.

The bottom line is if you're having economy problems then you need to spend less money, earn more money, or preferably both. I would suggest not rush buying factories. Allowing your planets to build the factories naturally saves the cost of the buildings purchase and delays the time before you have to start paying maintenance. This gives you time for your pop to grow which is the source of your income. You may even want to consider building an economic building as your first build instead of a factory as they improve your economy and don't require maintenance. But one of the cheapest ways to get a planet profitable is to not build anything. You need to be a bit careful because this puts you behind in development but it's not unreasonable to let the planet sit until the pop gets up to 1B or so before you start building on it.

Also getting that first sensor tech that allows you to build your own survey ships to get money from anonamlies can be very helpful, but less so on small galaxies than large galaxies.

Anyway it's very tough to give you any kind of formula. But I look on my initial 5000 bc as something that needs to be spent carefully because that's what allows you to support deficit spending during the colony rush. Otherwise having a good economy is just a matter of spending less than you earn.

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Wow, thanks for the awesome advice guys, I have some serious stuff to mull over and try out.

In response to MarshallOneil, I usually play in a Large Galaxy, with +50 to Economics, +1 to Speed, and Luck. I usually go for a balanced build policy on all my planets, and I tend to purchase everything without installments.

Also, I had no idea that players received a 100% population boost for having 100% approval. That right there could go a long ways to allieviate my frustrations.

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Also, I had no idea that players received a 100% population boost for having 100% approval.

Yes - just be careful not to let your treasury deplete too rapidly if you do this very early in the game. You also get a smaller bonus (25%, I think) for keeping your approval at or above 75%.

As for buying factories, I only do this on my home planet, but I do it in all galaxy sizes. It's the best way I've found to keep a steady stream of colony ships, constructors, and freighters going early in the game. All other planets I allow to build naturally, with the occasional exception for buildings I must complete early.

In your race ability picks, spend a few points on Morale. This will allow you to tax at higher rates while keeping your approval up throughout the game.

Spore. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every motherfrakker in the galaxy. Accept no substitutes.

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Here's my 12-step plan.

1. For the early game design bare minimum colony ships on small hulls. They are a lot cheaper. Ditto with constructors. They are basically a hull with only a colony or a constructor module.
2. I don't know how many starports you have, but don't feel like every one needs to be building a ship. Ships cost money, and constructors in particular cost a lot. Stopping the production of one or two constructors can make a huge difference to your budget. It's already been mentioned, but you don't have to build structures on every planet.
3. Have a high PQ world or two near your homeworld with mainly economic structures (farms and morale structures count for this, and of course the economic capitol). Use colony ships to ferry population from industrial worlds to these economic worlds.
4. I agree with other posters. It sounds like your rush strategy is going on a bit too long. You should leave yourself a bit of a buffer moneywise.
5. The sensor tech helps too, as other posters have also mentioned. Not only will you get money, but you find the economic and morale boosting anomolies. You can do this and also choose speed +1 for a racial trait and get the lion's share of the anomolies. The +1 speed also helps with the small hull constructor and colony ship strategy, since it effectively doubles the speed of these ships from 1 to 2 at the beginning of a game.
6. Choose economy (or morale or population) enhancing racial traits, at least until you get the hang of things.
7. Population equals money. To the extent you can, try to keep your planets' morale above 75%. This will keep your population and your economy growing more quickly. If you set your tax rate too high early in the game you will hurt yourself in the long run. I actually set my tax rate so that morale is 100% for the first five to ten turns so my population can really grow. It doesn't really make much difference in tax revenues that early in the game.
8. Build morale boosting structures on planets, especially on your economic planets. They will more than pay for themselves.
9. Don't necessarily rush to research the "planetary improvements" technology. The additional production isn't free.
10. Consider researching morale boosting technology. This will help you keep your tax rate a little lower.
11. Keep in mind the relationship between tax increases and morale. The morale hit seems about linear with a tax rate between 30 and 39, then increasing to a higher linear penalty for tax rates between 40 and 49, etc. So you really should think twice before your raise your tax level from 39 to 40, or especially from 49 to 50. Early in the game, after 49 it's hard not to enter the economic/morale whirlpool of doom.
12. Research trade and establish trade routes from one planet (probably your homeworld) and build multiple economic bases at the start of the routes to increase trade income. This can really add up. This is a place where you can use those cheap small hull constructors since they don't have far to go.

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I use a combo wait/rush buy strategy. I will normally queue up a factory, it may be at 7-10 turns depending on various factors for it complete and let it be. After 4 or 5 turns you can rush buy the remainder for very little money and the population will have grown a bit in the interim as well.

Don't forget you can also build/buy the old structures (the old tab) because xeno labs and factories cost quite a bit more to get up and running than the basic versions while not providing a gigantic upgrade in benefits, they can cost 40% more to build. Look into this if your funds are low.

Also as stated above, build a few extra colony ships to ferry population from your high pop worlds to the lower pop worlds. This will keep morale higher on the more populous worlds and get you more taxpayers to the low pop ones.

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Hi!

build multiple economic bases at the start of trade routes to increase trade income. This can really add up. This is a place where you can use those cheap small hull constructors since they don't have far to go.

Please note that building trade-enhancing SBs could be a big waste in Dark Avtar, as there it's much more difficult to get high enough espionage level to avoid assasination event. The "secret meeting - war has expanded" event can also destroy your carefully prepared trade network, and all the money that went into those SBs is wasted again. Since trade brings only a limited amount of founds in GC-2, look at it mostly as a diplomatic tool with some financial bonus.

BR, Iztok

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Hi!

build multiple economic bases at the start of trade routes to increase trade income. This can really add up. This is a place where you can use those cheap small hull constructors since they don't have far to go.

Please note that building trade-enhancing SBs could be a big waste in Dark Avtar, as there it's much more difficult to get high enough espionage level to avoid assasination event. The "secret meeting - war has expanded" event can also destroy your carefully prepared trade network, and all the money that went into those SBs is wasted again. Since trade brings only a limited amount of founds in GC-2, look at it mostly as a diplomatic tool with some financial bonus.

BR, Iztok

I respectfully disagree, especially when you are trying to get your economy turned around fairly early in the game. With cheap small hull constructors and multiple trade routes you can break even costwise in a turn or two.

I do agree that spamming economic SBs isn't as great as it used to be, although the cost of constructors remains constant while the cost of the spies increases for each spy. I wouldn't put all my eggs in any one strategy.

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Avoid techs that I don't need to build my planets

Purge, what do you mean specifically with this?

Wyndstar, thanks again!

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Hi!

With cheap small hull constructors and multiple trade routes you can break even costwise in a turn or two.

Erm... do you also calculate the 5BC maintenace cost for every starbase? And additional sub-logistics building costs for 30th ot 50th of 100th starbase?
And who'll defend them when those infamous pirates appear again?

In GC-1 trade was great. I remeber having a game where 2/3 of my income was coming from trade. In GC-2 DL the trade was significantly nerfed, but still did help, esp. when number of planets per player was small (up to 20 planets). But In Dark Avatar there are just too many things that can go wrong and nullify all the investment that went into building that expensive network of trade-supporting SBs. So this strategy is IMO no more cost-efficient. But ofc. you're entitled to your own opinion.

BR, Iztok

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Avoid techs that I don't need to build my planets

Purge, what do you mean specifically with this?

Wyndstar, thanks again!

I think this is a cross post...I'll respond in the Tell me how you dominate thread...

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Hi!

With cheap small hull constructors and multiple trade routes you can break even costwise in a turn or two.

Erm... do you also calculate the 5BC maintenace cost for every starbase? And additional sub-logistics building costs for 30th ot 50th of 100th starbase?
And who'll defend them when those infamous pirates appear again?

In GC-1 trade was great. I remeber having a game where 2/3 of my income was coming from trade. In GC-2 DL the trade was significantly nerfed, but still did help, esp. when number of planets per player was small (up to 20 planets). But In Dark Avatar there are just too many things that can go wrong and nullify all the investment that went into building that expensive network of trade-supporting SBs. So this strategy is IMO no more cost-efficient. But ofc. you're entitled to your own opinion.

BR, Iztok

I think we are talking about different timeframes of the game. I was referring to early in the game when you are trying to get your economy percolating, with maybe 4-8 economic starbases with minimal defenses. Once the economy kicks in it's not that big a deal if/when they are destroyed, although if they are close to each other it is possible (still not easy) to defend them.

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Trade can be useful for much of the game (and in DA, at least, the routes increase in value over time), so long as you build the Galactic Privateer. Then you can keep at least some of that trade income, losing it bit by bit as you slowly eliminate AI after AI.

Beware, though, as the galactic privateer bug can be very annoying on larger maps with more ships. In the latest DA beta, I'm seeing the AI build GP quite often (at least on masochistic), so you get this bug being troublesome even if you don't build it yourself.

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Hi!

I was referring to early in the game when you are trying to get your economy percolating, with maybe 4-8 economic starbases with minimal defenses.

I see. However even then it's next to pointless building specialized trade SBs, because:
1) trade routes are just starting and their value is low - 10% or 30% of 5 is how much?
2) freighters will be out of SB area in 15 turns,
3) most of traders will be on their way to different neighbours to make diplomatic relations with them better, so they will have very different paths, hard to cover with a bunch of SBs.

IMO you'd fare much better investing those constructors in production-supporting SBs, tech, or planetary infrastructure. At least at the difficulty level I play this seems to be much better investment.

BR, Iztok

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I have to support Iztok here when it comes to trade. Sit down and figure out how many turns it will take you to see a profit from a trade route, and you see the problem in DA. The cost of the trader, cost of any constructors if you use star bases, cost to defend your routes... and it just doesn't add up.

Trade is a great diplomacy tool, as Iztok says:

look at it mostly as a diplomatic tool with some financial bonus.

If resources are tight, trade does not become cost efficient for a long time. That means you need to keep your trade route up for a long time. As difficulty rises, that becomes a dicey proposition.

Star bases to add 10%-30% to trade are especially bad as far as investments go. For this to pay off (constructers aren't cheap) can often take longer than 5 years of game turns (upwards of 250 turns) to actually see a profit. And, as stated, this is very undependable income, that can be taken away from you unexpectedly in a variety of ways.

Hope that helps.

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To completely beat this subject to death....

I overstated the benefit of the trade boosting modules on economic bases.

Cheap constructors cost 110 bc (hull and constructor module only).
I assmue that economic starbases already are being built to help with production.
Even if you are only averaging one bonus bc per turn the payoff is in 2 years for the first trade module and half that for the second module (20% bonus). Assuming you have five trades routes, I think you would end up with significantly more bc's and a shorter payoff period than that.

I'll do some tests and get back with actual results.

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