You are not alone with your Espionage thinking. Many other think that the current system is way too simple and more "general" like espionage would have been better. Spies with missions like cause unrest, steal tech, sabotage "wonders" etc would been much better imho.

I've never really commented on the spy system used in DA since it didn't mean much to me. Never planned on using them and never have used them... until I played a few games with the Mega-Events turned on. The event that places spies all over the place really, really sucks bad. My first time, being new to the event, I sat back and wondered WTF!?! Once I realized what was going on and how to 'fix' it I was off to espionage land. Let me tell you, this event is a pure joke. Wasted my time and my resources attempting to pump out spies so that I could clear some thirty plus planets. Since this event, I have concluded that the majority of players are right in their opinions... the spy system itself needs some serious re-working.
As tons of people have pointed out, spies should be able to do much more than block a resource tile. Spies should not automatically be detected.

True, but there is a difference between espionage and sabotage. I want to make that choice.

point taken.


i guess the trouble is that whatever you can do, so can the AI. i guess when your production lapses you'll eventually figue out that theres a spy somewhere.

I personnally would like to chose the tech they steal. its no use getting a tech that you skipped in a trade and have no use for, same when you take a planet. I dont need "new propusion" when i already have "warp".

For those of you who really hate cleaning spies, do you use the counter-espianoge centers? Its not a very time-intensive tech to research and each center gives a 20% morale boost, which is usually better than anything I use on the entertainment tech line.

You might have to slide the social bar up high for a few turns to get them built quickly but you never have to worry about those red menaces afterward.

So if the CEC gives a 20% morale boost what does some of the actualy moral buildings give? Is it worth building a CEC in place of , say, a Zero G Arena?

Spies in DA sound annoying, and are one of the reasons i havn't bothered bying it yet.

That is too funny. Good point though in general.

If you're checking production on all your planets.



This sounds like it's just a useless feature (not really, see below), you just swap a building and get more or less the same effect. How can that be a good thing?
Of course, it's not the same thing, because:



Yep, true, it gives a 20% morale boost (1 per planet max), same as the Extreme Stadium, with lower maintenance - a bit more expensive though, but the counter-espionage ability is handy.



Another one of those things that were not properly thought out. The CEC is unique to each planet though, and the ZGA is 30% morale with 2 maint and no restrictions on numbers. But unless you want to go for high pop worlds (which aren't all that good these days...), you'll be better off with the CEC - anti-spies AND morale!



The SPC also gives 20% morale, is WAY more expensive, AND can have agents placed upon it (so do ZGAs). And it's a super project. The only advantage is no maintenance. Hardly worth it. Another one for the count.

I would like to make the positive case for how espionage has been set up for DA. A lot of complaining about a lot of game elements as "not being realistic", like having spies detected immediately upon placement, need to be seen in the context of gameplay simplicity and balance issues.

The developers COULD have chosen to use more complex systems calculating odds of spy detection based on espionage and counter-espionage tech levels or whatever, but would that enhance gameplay? If you have hidden spies sapping manufacturing, should the effect still be visible somehow when you drill down to the colony detail screens to see where the actual production numbers are being derived from? I suspect that the idea of needing to review colony detail to look for the tell-tale sign that you have spies somewhere affecting your colony would be an unwelcome addition of micromanagement to advanced players. As it is now, spies are just another asset in your arsenal; ones that can be used anonomously without going to war. When attacked by spies, the key gameplay point is not detecting them, but having and/or choosing to use the resources to counter them... or not.

The system is simple elegance because it gives substantial flexibility in how you choose to "spend" your spying investment; offensive, defensive or stockpile your spy force for some huge assault on some future enemy. If you do get into a spy war with an opponent, eventually the one who spent more on his spies will be the only one with any still in operation, perhaps forcing an opponent to allocate more $$ to spying and away from building warships, or not and just pay the price of losing tech and intelligence to you.

Personally, I have gone games where I spent almost nothing on spies, and rarely felt like the AI was particularly fond of using them against me (at least on tough). Generally though, I like to have a few spies in reserve for defense, and it is a great option to assist an ally fighting an opponent when you don't actually want to enter the war yourself... And at some point I want to try building up a big stockpile of spies and then unleashing them all at once to cripple an opponent's economy just as my fleets start into their territory. Maybe not as cost effective as just building more warships, but might be fun anyway.

I have, and have concluded that you are a
!!!

*Nothing* "personal", but that was a pretty pointless post.

The problem with the spy system is that there is no way one empire will be able to fend off the spies of all other empires. The fact that there is no way to increase the production of spies besides spending huge chunks of cash is what really makes the current system annoying. I really wonder if spying may have been put into the game as a sort of money sink, because I don't see much other use for it.

I am in full agreement. it got so annoying that I shut the darn game down. I had built my military strong enoung to to head off all 8 Civs. and had 2 allies.. But then the Spies started, one then two, then three and thn four. Eacg one of course were put on strategic tiles. The problem is that each spy you make costs wou more money, therefore you cannot keep up with eight different Civs sending you $100 spies, but I need $1000 spies to nullify them. In fact by the time I got fed up with it all, my espionage level was at max, so my inconomy took a dive. The anti espionage Tech cannot be optained until you have the time to wait for it to be built on each planet, instaid of the factory that you realy need. It takes too long to build it. By that time you are knee deep in spies.

Lets take real life as a model. A spy is hired an then trained. The level of training required and hence training cost incured comensurates depending on the task at hand and how secure the city is that must be spyed on. In this fashion, your ennemy, must commit some resources to be able to get through your security defences undetected.But there is alway a chance that a counter spy agency will notice the spy and aprehend it. The spy can be interrigated to find out who sent him. If he is from an ally, ou now have the option of breaking your treaty. Or atacking them.

I have been in battles where my ally must have been spying on me, because I had destroyed my enemy's economy, yet the darn spies still came.