Metaverse Approved Mods » Forum Post by Tsed

That would utterly blow my mind, for the HR and Hull System Mods... those two mods are reasons why I only have two meta scores posted.

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This is something we have been asking for for a long time, however as we know that the devs would rather drop the MV than change things (previous posts by certain devs), i cant see that ever happening.

Besides it all comes down to economics! Upgrading the MV takes time = money and that is something that as a company Stardock cant afford to spend.

Strange thing is that we could do more with the MV games in GCI than we can in GCII

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. There is a lot of shared interest among players wanting at least graphical mods allowed. While we may not get mods in the official meta, there is work being done by MacMatt to try to get some alternative/compromise where people with mods can post scores in some way. I'm not sure about the details, but I remain hopeful.

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Neilo

Join Date 04/2006

+128

Will the Alt-Meta update scores that are submitted using those mods. If so and with Stardock's reluctance to change the MV would they consider hosting Alt-Meta medals or some equivalent? I would love to play with both those mods enabled

however as we know that the devs would rather drop the MV than change things

WOOT! No. I know next nothing about codding or anything like that but forgive if i am wrong, but if Kryo can do the Alt-Meta project basically in his spare time could it really be that difficult to make these changes, considering they basically already have been done with the Alt-Meta?

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

Will the Alt-Meta update scores that are submitted using those mods. If so and with Stardock's reluctance to change the MV would they consider hosting Alt-Meta medals or some equivalent? I would love to play with both those mods enabled

Perhaps Macmatt may answer with more detail, but AFAIK he has been in discussion with Cari who (I think) has agreed to support the saving of an endgame xml format file that could concievably be used to download game details to some as of yet undefined alternate or mod metaverse. There has been discussion within the MVC that it would be a good idea to come up with some mechanism within the AltMeta to support this, however no work has yet been done and it's not totally certain when this ability will be introduced into the game. However when this ability is introduced into the game, this is certainly something that the MVC will put all it's effort behind. One thing that I have heard mentioned is that this will not be something that's ever supported in the official metaverse.

WOOT! No. I know next nothing about codding or anything like that but forgive if i am wrong, but if Kryo can do the Alt-Meta project basically in his spare time could it really be that difficult to make these changes, considering they basically already have been done with the Alt-Meta?

Please don't take this negatively, but in the first place, Kryo doing the AltMeta in his spare time does not imply that this is something easy to do. Secondly, as I mentioned, there currently is no ability in the AltMeta to support this so it definitely remains to be seen what will happen. I personally am very happy that Stardock is willing to do the work to support the endgame.xml that will make this all possible. At this point I suggest that we all not look a gift horse in the mouth and be happy for the support we do get instead of complaining about why we don't get more. Perhaps if we can show some initiative and do something on our own, Stardock may be more willing to support us further in the future.

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Neilo

Join Date 04/2006

+128

Please don't take this negatively, but in the first place, Kryo doing the AltMeta in his spare time does not imply that this is something easy to do.

Of course not.

Perhaps if we can show some initiative and do something on our own, Stardock may be more willing to support us further in the future.

Ok, once the xml file has been implemented, what can we do to show that initiative? I'm certain that there are many fellow community members with the know-how to assist in this endeavour, but what if anything can the rest of us do. I know this may be a rhetorical question at this point, but i'm all for showing Stardock what we can do and that we are willing to work hard for it.

At this point I suggest that we all not look a gift horse in the mouth and be happy for the support we do get instead of complaining about why we don't get more.

I'm not complaining, and yes Stardock are extremely supportive, i just want my cake and to eat it too...

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At this point I suggest that we all not look a gift horse in the mouth and be happy for the support we do get instead of complaining

Ummm Mumble i dont really see anyone here complaining.. more just a few thoughts and feelings being written down. May want to re-read the posts again as the only person here so far with any 'attitude' appears to be you

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Besides it all comes down to economics! Upgrading the MV takes time = money and that is something that as a company Stardock cant afford to spend.

Well, of course, but *any* improvements have this issue, so that's hardly an argument against.

Now, if the number of people who'd make use of this is very small, then that's an argument against it -- the time can be spent elsewhere. And, quite honestly, that might be the case. But then, in my simple mind, this seems like a not-horribly-difficult thing to implement. I have to assume that some form of hash is done to confirm that the gamefiles haven't been modified. It seems to me that if you apply this same thing to the active mod directory, then have a list of "good" hashes, well... yeah.

But then, I'm obviously just guessing at how things are done, and I mean no disrespect to the devs, as I imagine if it was that simple, it'd be done already

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Neilo

Join Date 04/2006

+128

Going out on a limb here, but if Stardock don't see that this is worth the time and money, would we buy this feature, say if it was included in some form of expansion. This might convince Stardock to go ahead with this, since it seems to be somewhat harder than alot of us realized.

I for one would buy it, provided it is suitably priced. I miss not having the freedom of using Kryo's mod in DA in the MV, and the High Res mod is great too!!

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

Ummm Mumble i dont really see anyone here complaining.. more just a few thoughts and feelings being written down. May want to re-read the posts again as the only person here so far with any 'attitude' appears to be you

My comment certainly wasn't meant to come off with any attitude. I was simply responding to what I saw as the assumption that what Kryo has done in his "spare time" therefore implies that Stardock supporting metaverse mods is trivial, particularly when any sort of support for metaverse mods has yet to be implemented into the AltMeta.

Ok, once the xml file has been implemented, what can we do to show that initiative?

At this point the only initiative we can realistically show is to "encourage" Kryo to implement support for this into the AltMeta. I'm sure there are other folks within the community that would be capable of doing something as well. I know that Macmatt has been a prime mover behind getting Cari to provide this. I also know that it was Macmatt's intent to set up a mod based metaverse on his TBS Modder site. There's nothing wrong with this. The AltMeta and Kryo certainly do not have an exclusive right to all possible community based initiative for GalCiv2. However, I would argue that separate sites, the AltMeta and some other mod metaverse, would compete for attention and therefore dilute the effect of both. However, the AltMeta combined with a Mod Metaverse would be a killer site for all those interested for the metaverse. Finally, the endgame.xml can also support the idea of Metaverse scenarios proposed by Wheeloffire as well as provide a useful way of implementing tournaments or games of the month. All of these things are great ideas that go hand in hand with the idea of making the metaverse a more interesting place for all.

I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that these are good ideas. I just think that the highest probability of implementation of any these ideas still comes through the AltMeta and Kryo and not by hoping that Stardock has an epiphany and reverses the negativity that has been expressed by some developers towards the metaverse.

I'm not complaining, and yes Stardock are extremely supportive, i just want my cake and to eat it too...

Complaining was perhaps the wrong term for me to use. But I do think the statement that "if Kryo can do it in the AltMeta then why can't Stardock do it for the official metaverse" is misguided. One really has no bearing on the other, even though it may be essentially true. I simply don't think that this is the kind of logic that could realistically convince Stardock to change anything that they're currently doing.

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Neilo

Join Date 04/2006

+128

But I do think the statement that "if Kryo can do it in the AltMeta then why can't Stardock do it for the official metaverse" is misguided.

Actually you have just misunderstood is all, my point was that Kryo has shown that these types of modifications are possible and that it is within their (Stardock) power to make these changes, however improbable.

"if Kryo can do it in the AltMeta then why can't Stardock do it for the official metaverse"

It seems you have mis-quoted me and lost the point in the process,

but if Kryo can do the Alt-Meta project basically in his spare time could it really be that difficult to make these changes, considering they basically already have been done with the Alt-Meta?

My point is that Kryo has laid the groundwork for what needs to be done in the future with his work with the Alt-Meta and also coupled with the new files from Cari, first base is behind us. Now whether or not Stardock choose to do anything further along these lines seems to based on the fact "don't want to" more so than "Can't do so", a choice more than a limitation. My logic being that Stardock can, if they choose, do what has been suggested, and for their own reasons choose not to.

If it is a case of time and money, and i'm sure it comes down to that, like i said, would we pay for it?

Hope that cleared it all up

It would seem though that the future of this happening lies with Kryo. Then if there is anything that he needs, shirt ironed, a bagel perhaps, i would be happy to oblige him

Complaining was perhaps the wrong term for me to use

No not really, i'd be more than happy to complain if it was going to do any good though

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

My point is that Kryo has laid the groundwork for what needs to be done in the future with his work with the Alt-Meta and also coupled with the new files from Cari, first base is behind us. Now whether or not Stardock choose to do anything further along these lines

As mumble has pointed out, the altmeta is strictly a personal project of mine. Nothing in it is any sort of foundation for anything official, or indication that any such changes will ever be made. Such descisions would lie solely with Frogboy, and if he did decide to incorporate new features in the metaverse, they would have to be done from scratch by the web team (the altmeta, besides being a cobbled-together mess behind the scenes, is written in entirely different languages from what all SD sites use, and that's just the start of the reasons).

One thing to note is that, right now, the altmeta is blind to cheat flags (they aren't denoted in the metaverse RSS feeds it gets its data from). So if you don't care about your ranking on the official meta, you could mod your MetaverseData folder and post away right now. Your score will be destroyed on the official meta, but you'll get full credit on the altmeta. Not an optimal solution by any means, but it's a step up for those who would otherwise play offline games only so they can use mods.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

It seems you have mis-quoted me and lost the point in the process

Sorry about that. As I said, I hoped my comment wasn't taken negatively.

My point is that Kryo has laid the groundwork for what needs to be done in the future with his work with the Alt-Meta and also coupled with the new files from Cari, first base is behind us.

Actually, AFAIK the groundwork has yet to be laid, but assuming that it will have been done at some point in the future (future pluperfect tense) then your statement is correct.

Now whether or not Stardock choose to do anything further along these lines seems to based on the fact "don't want to" more so than "Can't do so", a choice more than a limitation.

Certainly correct as long as the caveat noted above is kept in mind. This is the point that I assumed you were making all along even though I perhaps misquoted you. My point wasn't that this is incorrect. My point was that this isn't necessarily the most compelling argument one could make to convince Stardock to support metaverse mods.

In any case, I don't see much need for any great argument here. As far as I can tell everyone has agreed that this is a good idea and something that folks would like to see implemented. The only possible discussion is how best to go about it. Even on this I really don't see all that much difference of opinion. I would say that there's no argument at all about Stardock's "don't want to" versus "can't do so". Certainly the (potential) implementation of this on the AltMeta addresses "can't do so" but that's never been the real issue. The real issue has always been "don't want to" and merely implementing this on the AltMeta doesn't address this real issue. What does address the real issue is implementation of this on the AltMeta (or elsewhere) and proving that this has a wide appeal to the general GalCiv2 community. It's the second part of this that addresses "don't want to" and is the most important part for gaining Stardock's approval. It's fine for a couple of folks to respond to this thread with "great idea" or even "this is something that I'd be willing to pay for". It's a far different thing to actually implement this and be able to demonstrate that there are hundreds (do I dare hope for thousands?) of folks interested enough to actually use this functionality. If we can do so then I doubt we'll have that much trouble changing "don't want to" into something more favorable.

Anyway, I hope no one has taken anything I've said as a personal affront, it certainly wasn't intended that way. Again, as far as I can tell I've not disagreed with anyone on what should be done just perhaps on how it should be done.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

Posted the above before seeing Kryo's post. The only thing I'd add after reading his post is that I still think that "don't want to" is and has been the real issue, not "can't do" or even "difficult to do".

Many arguments for many good ideas have been made in the past that essentially go "It wouldn't be hard to do". The point I'm making is this doesn't address the real issue. The real issue is "does it benefit the wider GalCiv2 community?". My opinion is that this can't be answered by a few folks saying "me too" in a thread on a forum but can only be demonstrated by people putting forth the effort required to make substantive changes and for (many) others to actually use the new feature. This has been the essential premise behind the "social experiment" that is the MVC.

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Right it seems I have missed my cue, but I will enter nonetheless

.

I have been in discussions with Cari as to the creation of an xml file at the end of every game, which would contain various endgame data. I have not heard from Cari in a while but hopefully it will be included in DA 1.6 .

The plan is then to then create a Mod Metaverse. Whether or not this would be incorporated into the AltMeta is totally up to Kryo, although I would gladly learn PHP and assist him if it is needed.

This could, as Mumble said, be used for all manner of things such as tournaments and metaverse scenarios, as well as graphical and indeed other mods. However, for non-graphical mods, we would need copies of the modded XMLs on a server to check against for cheating. I would host them on my website, and I would also create and host some method of uploading them to the Altmeta/Mod Meta.

The possibilities of things that could be done if and when this improvement is added to the game are nearly endless, and will surely be debated by the MVC and Kryo.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

The possibilities of things that could be done if and when this improvement is added to the game are nearly endless, and will surely be debated by the MVC and Kryo.

This will certainly be well discussed by the MVC and Kryo, but everyone else that has interest in this or any other metaverse/MVC related issue is welcomed to participate in these discussions. Certainly many of these discussions will occur here in these forums but many more occur in the Metaverse Forum over on The Galactic Core. Anyone is free to stop by and read what the MVC has been up to lately. A simple registration is required to post and certainly all are encouraged to do this as well. I do have to admit that some of the discussions can tend towards the tedious, which is why we hold them at the Core instead of here.

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My comment certainly wasn't meant to come off with any attitude.

Nah! Just me being over sensitive

Sorry for jumping down your throat buddy!

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

Nah! Just me being over sensitive Sorry for jumping down your throat buddy!

Words are such an uncertain media over which to convey feeling and intent. So much of human communication is non-verbal. It can be surprising when we actually do convey subtle meaning in what we write. When I wrote my initial response it was 11:30PM my time and my wife was bitching at me to come to bed. I kind of threw in the "don't take this negatively" as a catch all to soften up what could otherwise be taken as criticism but I really didn't have the time to polish my words so as to ensure no offense was given.

In any case because of the uncertain media thing I really didn't take your comments negatively, but I did want to make sure folks realized that I didn't mean them that way.

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Neilo

Join Date 04/2006

+128

Sorry about that. As I said, I hoped my comment wasn't taken negatively.

Not at all.

Seems i didn't have my finger quite on the pulse, sorry. No argument, just needed to understand we we are at.

The real issue is "does it benefit the wider GalCiv2 community?". My opinion is that this can't be answered by a few folks saying "me too" in a thread on a forum but can only be demonstrated by people putting forth the effort required to make substantive changes and for (many) others to actually use the new feature. This has been the essential premise behind the "social experiment" that is the MVC.

Of course saying and doing are two different things, and we as a community need to show Stardock that this is a feature worth implementing. Now of course the hard part is going about this, as you have said. I think most MV players already are showing support, i mean, i could'nt imagine anyone currently playing in the MV not doing so once the Mods are (if) included, but that only represents a small percentage of the playing community, we need to get those players who play with these mods outside the MV to become more active as to show Stardock there is a quorum here ready and waiting.

Assuming of course those that use these mods instead of playing in the MV would make the leap to the new/alt/mod MV.

Just thinking out loud, but, does Stardock monitor MV activity? I ask this because if it is an increased activity in the MV that would tilt Stardock to make these mods (assuming again here) i hope they have a way of seeing the increased effort from the players. Of course, even if we can get more players playing in the MV, and even if this is something that will be noticed and recognized by the devs, we may be chasing our own tails.

Time to bark this discussion up a tree at the core now i guess.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

I think most MV players already are showing support, i mean, i could'nt imagine anyone currently playing in the MV not doing so once the Mods are (if) included, but that only represents a small percentage of the playing community, we need to get those players who play with these mods outside the MV to become more active as to show Stardock there is a quorum here ready and waiting.

Exactly.

Certainly, generating interest in those that don't currently play the MV is a definite goal. However, simply having unity among those that do currently play the MV is a step in the right direction. By that I don't mean that we all need to agree on every little detail or even on the priority of things to implement, but that we agree that we do have a commonality of interest and that we can work together towards achieving it.

The potential marriage of those interested in the MV and those interested in mods is a benefit to both groups. There certainly are those that are interested in both and there could definitely be far more once we don't force people to have to chose between two mutually excusive options. I know I would be more interested in mods once there was a metaverse to accept them, I know the converse is true as well.

As far as Stardock monitoring things like the AltMeta and Metaverse Mods I don't think they're explicitly watching with bated breath, but I do think there's very little that goes on in this forum that escapes their attention. If we have an alternate site supporting metaverse mods and we have hundreds of folks posting games to it I'm sure they'll know about it. I'm also sure it will have a positive affect on their willingness to support future requests. On the flip side of this if we go ahead and implement this and only a few people post to it then that will be noted as well.

So far we have the promised support of an endgame.xml but it's really up to us to do something with it. I think we need to do as much as possible asking as little as possible from Stardock. After we’ve proven ourselves then perhaps we can ask for a little more support with a little higher expectation of receiving it, but even if and when that happens we should use this judiciously. Any time we can do something ourselves we should by all means do it. God helps those that help themselves.

Now before folks go off and expect instant movement on this issue, I want to caution you that these things can easily take months. I know it’s boring but folks need more than the initial excitement of something like this to sustain the long term effort it takes to accomplish it. It takes perseverance, and that can be difficult. So far, through Kryo’s substantial part time effort, we’re very close to being able to show an improved AltMeta with *significant* new functionality. The other part about accomplishing things is that you need to stick with them until they’re finished. If you drop the current thing the instant another good idea comes along you never finish anything.

In any case, I guarantee that we will finish the new AltMeta *before* we start working on anything else, but that the next thing on the list will be Metaverse Mods, Metaverse Scenarios, Player Tournaments and/or any other reasonably interesting things we can do with this endgame.xml and that once we start down that path we won’t stop until we accomplish them.

Hopefully this doesn’t sound too much like a high school pep rally.

Now, back to my current game.

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Looks like we have more work on our hands.

Gentlemen, its high time to convene in the Council chambers and get things moving again

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