But we can try.

Oh my word. Disappear for a couple days and it seems like the whole world passes you by. This thread has taken on a life of its own, which is really nice to see.

The Metaverse movement is alive and well.

I think the main thing here is to make the Metaverse better. Mumble made a good point when he said this isn't the U.S. senate. There will be some things people may or may not like. The biggest things most people are afraid of is change. Any kind of change. Each of us will have to ask ourselves if the changes we are suggesting will make the Metaverse a better place for all... not just one group of players. If the answer is Yes, then we should move forward.

For those of you who have taken the time to respond to this thread, thanks.

For those of you stepping up, taking charge, and working to better the Metaverse, thanks.

Checked the first post on this thread days ago - really got a lot of attention so far.
I argee that the MV needs some new ideas. I remember when the Orcas started and we had the discussion about the scoring system. The MV changed a bit since then, but still the system is unfair. As others said, only military victory is rewarded. This only one point I would like to see changed. (But I have some doubts that SD is going to change anything on that.)
I welcome the idea of having some new competitive events in the MV. I think this could help to get the attention of "retired" MV players again. So I support this idea you are creating here.

But I have some doubts that SD is going to change anything on that

Glad to see you're on board with this. Certainly attracting folks to come out of retirement would be a major benefit. But more important, in my mind anyway, is to interest the new player who may easily be overwhelmed.

You're definitely correct in that getting Stardock to change anything would be difficult at best. That's why our initial efforts will require absolutely no change in the game. We would probably like to add a few more achievement medal classes, but our initial efforts will more likely center around the AltMeta and the posibility of defining brackets that could focus on game types other than the gigantic galaxy military victory.

If for example we had a bracket dedicated to medium and below galaxies, then the folks that prefer playing that size would compete against only others playing that size. This could be accomplished by simply sorting the metaverse data as it currently exists with no game changes whatsoever.

However, at this point exactly what will be proposed and accepted is a bit premature. At this point we're just trying to gain support for the metaverse council. I think it's clear that having a representative body that can speak with a unified voice for the bulk of metaverse players can only benefit the common interests of all metaverse players.

For those who have ideas about new rankings for the altmeta, this is the data kept on each game:

Score
Size
Difficulty
Alignment
Years
Race
Result
Date posted

The actual altmeta scores and rankings are precalculated each day after the data is updated, as all that is actually very database-intensive.

Note that the Race data is not really useful at present, since due to a bug in the Meta RSS it is only given for custom races. So all the altmeta knows is whether the game was played with a custom race or not.

That is great info Kryo, as the size/difficulty would be the most likely sorting factors. I'm no coder/webdesigner, so I was wondering the difficulty in breaking this data down for sorting and displaying.

On another note, the email system just won't email anyone I've tried. I have sent an email to websupport, but it's Friday so I don't expect to hear back till next week probably. I did mention the first person I tried Dark-Star, so maybe I'll get to correspond with him eventually through this.

I really like seeing the amount of support this is getting. Keep it up, word of mouth is our biggest tool right now and I see some of you doing a great job of spreading the word around the forums. Having everyone coming together and working for a common goal is paramount in these ideas coming to light, So a big Thank you to everyone who has shown their support .

I did mention the first person I tried Dark-Star, so maybe I'll get to correspond with him eventually through this.

If you want him direct, try gmarsack@.

Thank you Kryo  

For those who have ideas about new rankings for the altmeta, this is the data kept on each game: Score Size Difficulty Alignment Years Race Result Date posted

Does Result include the ability to tell the difference between the four victory types: Conquest, Technological, Influence and Alliance?

Yes, the possible values of result are conquest, technological, influence, alliance, military defeat, and resigned. I've never seen any defeat type than military (i.e., if the AI won a tech victory) so I don't know if other defeats are possible. It would depend on what the official meta records it as.

the possible values of result are conquest, technological, influence, alliance, military defeat, and resigned

Great, this implies we could define brackest based on victory types. Which ones and how many types are definitely TBD but it's nice to know the possibilities.

Thanks.   

Thanks to everyone who posted here, especially Kryo. Your information will be most useful since this will help us with the first step, better organization. This way we could actually start doing stuff after we get the data together. Thanks once again, things are starting to progress.

What's with all the new icons.

If you're still seeing Connery or Death With an Umbrella by my name, refresh your browser. After Mumblefratz reminded me in another thread, I figured I might as well just embrace it.

I figured I might as well just embrace it.

As good a choice as any.

A bit of an update. As TheGreatEmperor mentioned, I think things are beginning to progress. The Diplomats have been discussing it in the How to Increase Interest and Participation in the Metaverse thread over on the Galactic Core. Vukasika of the Arrakis Imperium has stopped by and contributed. All others are welcome to stop by as well.

Support looks pretty positive although not totally unanimous. I think I'll be looking to call for a poll among Diplomat's on Monday. It would be up to each empire as to how they want to make a decision, but I would hope that we could get all four empire's to respond with a yes or no decision on whether to support this by the middle to the end of next week.

If the result is positive then the final issue needed to be decided by agreement among the empires is what kind of representation we want. From there each empire can elect or appoint their representative(s) and we'll see what the metaverse council can accomplish.

I think approval from the four known active empire's (Orcas, Diplomats, HCH and Arrakis) would be sufficient to begin the council. That doesn't mean we should stop trying to dig up members from inactive empires or unaligned players. But if and when we find a group of such players I'm sure everyone will be for their inclusion in the council.

Yes, if we get the most influencial others will come, word will spread. It will take time.

Now, if we are going to be working towards a system of representation i think some people should step forward now if they have a plan they want considered. This way we wont waste all this in between "yes, no time" of the empires' decidsions. So anyone have anything they want to propose?

I dont know how to form empires or join them.

Well, it matters some empires are "open" some are "closed". Open empires will let you join by just clicking on their name and the clicking on the "Join Empire" button besides their icon. Closed empires will send you an invite via email wheter or not they want you to join. I am personally of the Arrakis Imperium, we would be glad to have you, though i cant recruit so youll have to wait. Otherwise there are a bunch of other empire out there looking for members just put yourself out there and be patient.

I dont know how to form empires or join them.

To join an empire go to the metaverse and click on the top empires list scroll to the empire you want to join and click on the join empire button under the empire's icon. That will bring up your character list to select which character you want to join the empire.

To create your own empire got to My Account while at the home page or in the metaverse area. From there click Edit my Empire and you can set one up. You may need you serial number to do this I'm not sure.

So anyone have anything they want to propose?

To start the discussion I think each of the four current empires get two representatives each and we try to find two unaligned players to represet everyone else. That gives us a manageable number of 10 reps to deal with. As far as voting within the council I think strong agreement should be required to do anything. As a start I'd say you'd need 7 of 10 yes votes to actually do something.

Other ideas and suggestions welcomed.

[edit] GreatEmporer, it bodes well that we both took time to answer the noob before getting the thread back to it's point. [/edit]

We were all noobs once, and we were helped by someone.

Yes i think that 10 representatives would work fine. Though i think an uneven number would be better for making decisions.

One thing i want to add though. Is that if an empire wishes to join then they will be cross evaluated and proven to be active. They will be given a trial representative for the first two weeks of membership. If intrest within that empire continues then they will be granted full membership.

However, i think we should take heed to only keep it an empire representative basis for only a few months. After that i would like it to switch to a democratic election where alligment with an empire would not matter.

Though i think an uneven number would be better for making decisions.

Uneven would only be required if we are looking for a simple majority to approve something. That's certainly one way to do it, but I would think that to validate that the things we did had closer to universal appeal, requiring greater than 50% approval was a reasonable thing to do.

As far as another empire joining at that point it could be decided by the council in the manner the council chose. I don't think we need to write a constitution and bill of rights stipulating every possible action the council may take.

At this point since the council is effectively taking it's validity from the empires that authorize it, I think what does need to be specified and agreed to by the empires is the number of representatives from each empire and the voting percentage of those representatives required to authorized a change. Given that validity derives from the empires, I could live without unaligned player representatives, although I would prefer to have at least one from the point of view of fairness. That would get your odd number anyway.

Once that's complete the council as a duly authorized and representative body of metaverse players would be free to define the precise joining requirements and the manner in which representatives are chosen. However I do like the idea of term limits and also the idea of elections. I just think it's not necessary to write these things into a charter prior to forming a council.

Its necessary to have something written down, it helps to creaate a sense of order, plus it gains validity for what we are doing. People will question writen evidence, but not as much as they will a person's word. Yes, i do want to escape the meaningless formalities of buerocracy, but i do want some order and construction for the council. We must function as a body of representatives, and we must function smoothly.

And your right, the Empires should decide on how many representatives are needed, after the people of this thread are not the majority by far. As far as precentages go, each rep should have equal say. This will get rid of the needless questioning, however the number of reps would be readjusted as the population of the Metaverse increases(which it should). But, for now we will just say that everyone would get an equal number as a full member.

Also, we should let everyone present ideas, no matter if they are on the council or not. The ideas themselves however will only be voted on by the council. And i want an uneven number so that it doesnt ever end up a tie, that way we could try and swing it one way or the other.

Now, as far as elections go. They should start taking place once we have agreed on the basic institution. For now, i think, the representatives should be chosen by the Empires' consent. But, later it would be popular soveirgnty, and the people would vote in polls much like the one on this forum. But, thats my opinion, we will decide once more people are drawn into this movement.

Its necessary to have something written down, it helps to create a sense of order, plus it gains validity for what we are doing.

Yes this is true. But let's try to keep it as simple and succinct as possible.

You can begin to see some of the issues were going to have just talking about some of these things. The length of post (this one for example) involved is far longer than the normal post. I'm really not looking forward to reading (even less looking forward to writing) multiple 20 paragraph posts about the pros and cons of something that at it's basis is pretty simple.

The other thing that can help ensure validity is a requirement for a high percentage of agreement to make any change. People are less likely to question decisions that have for example 80% approval. If we decide things based on a narrow margin, that's when people can wonder if we're really speaking for the metaverse as a whole or whether one faction that happens to be slightly more powerful is pushing something that a good percentage of folks don't want.

As far as percentages go, each rep should have equal say.

Absolutely. Also I think the rep should not just operate on his own opinions but should canvas his constituents (empire) and vote his constituents (empires) preferences not his own. But again I wouldn't want to try to legislate such behavior.

number of reps would be readjusted as the population of the Metaverse increases

Yes.

we should let everyone present ideas, no matter if they are on the council or not.

Absolutely.

i think, the representatives should be chosen by the Empires' consent.

Agreed. Also since it is the empire's consent to be represented, the empire could chose to change a rep if it felt that it's views weren’t being properly represented.

Now, as far as elections go.

This is actually a dicey topic. At this point I'm not sure how the empires will chose their representatives. I'm not even sure the empires will use the same method. I intend to have a poll within the Diplomats, but even so I'm not quite sure what that will mean. Technically empires have emperors. The last time I looked, emperors weren't required to have free elections. AFAIK they can do anything they want.

I am *pretty* sure the emperors we have are what I would consider "enlightened despots" and have predominately democratic leanings at heart. But this is by no means guaranteed.

Anyway, as I mentioned before, I think it's up to the council to decide how to set up elections or whatever method used to pick new representatives. I personally would favor going towards a system that ended up with a single representative from each active empire (senators) and the remaining elected "at large" (representatives). Though I still would think that the different reps would be equal for voting purposes. But again I would leave this as decision for the council once formed.

I really think we have the chance to do something productive. I hope we aren't tempted to try to do too much. I also hope that we don't get so tied up in the picayune and pedantic that I regret suggesting the idea in the first place.

Polls have already started on the HCH Forum, and so far they are in support of the Council. We are also already gearing up for elections, we have four candidates. We won't start elections for reps. till the number of reps we are allowed have been set. Just thought I would drop an update from the HCH.

AlexAtticus

The written document, will just state or means, purpose, and general rules. It shouldnt be longer that 1 page, maybe 2 if we highlight certain things. And yes i think that amedments should have an overwhelming majority of approval, and decision doubly so. Though with some touchy ones we might even want to submit those to a public poll.

Glad you agree with most of my ideas.

Now for elections, those will be troublesome. So for the time being the empires should be able to choose which way they want to do what. They will have free reign untill the Council itself will gain respect within the community. Then we will start voting on this and that. As soon as everything starts running smoothly though, i think we should get rid of Imperial elections and make the public. However, the empires should have a right to reserve seats on the council and present the candidates. That way the Empires will still have some power over who is a nominee, but Emperors wont be able to dictate who actually gets to be on the Council. Hopefully, this will reduce the potential power grabbing, though hopefully none of the issues we present will call for this.

A big thanks to AlexAtticus for the update! As soon as we get word froma few more empires we will send a general message to everyone to send pretty much anyone they want. The first meeting, in my opinion, will not be one of strict representation, it will be more public. Though we might impose a limit on the number of votes accepted(to cut down on counting, and the confusion) we will try and keep it open to as many as possible.