I'm glad to see that this thread generated so much dialogue.

"It seems that the news of my (the metaverse's) death has been greatly exaggerated". Mark Twain

While the MV is by no means dead I think all that have posted here are expressing their desire for an improved and expanded Metaverse. I think we've had some good ideas here. The question is, does this become simply another thread that eventually fades into obscurity or do people actually want to try to *do* something about it.

I've made my suggestions but there's apparently limited interest. I'd like to hear more about things we can actually do as opposed to things we'd like someone else to do for us.

We cant really do anything without Stardocks support. Well have to petition to them for improvements. For the time being we can come up with many things. Better medals and representation being one of them. I think that a player should not be forced to play this way, to get a certain medal or acceptance into a certain type of empire. I think that whatever style of gameplay they choose should be rewarded.

We cant really do anything without Stardocks support. Well have to petition to them for improvements.

I don't really believe that the first sentance is totally true. And for the second sentance to have any chance of achieving anything, we'd first have to come to agreement on precisely what it is that "we" as a collective want to do. I don't think batting around a bunch of suggestions on this thread will achieve that kind of consensus. That's way I proposed a representative body of metaverse player's that might have a chance of coming to agreement on a unified proposal that could be presented to Stardock.

As I've mentioned before, I'd really love to see the size/difficulties broken down a little more with seperate brackets/medals. The teamplay idea is also interesting. Need to use this thread or a new one to discuss and narrow down ideas, so we could have a unified presentation of what the players support. It's just really difficult to get enough players to organize anything without communication outside of this forum. Also some players I see active on metaverse either don't post or do it rarely. Trying to get all of them to take notice and give support may be difficult.

in no way is an accurate reflection of playing skill

This quote, as it is written, is male bovine droppings. The posted score does indeed reflect skillful play. I apologize to anyone that I may have offended by this comment. I suppose if I had to state my sentiments in one sentence, it would be: 'I want to play too!'. There are four ways to win this game, but only one is rewarded in the meta. This is why I do not play/post there. If the scoring system were revamped to reflect the changed difficulties in the latest build, then perhaps I would reconsider.

I don't think batting around a bunch of suggestions on this thread will achieve that kind of consensus. That's way I proposed a representative body of metaverse player's that might have a chance of coming to agreement on a unified proposal that could be presented to Stardock.

I totally agree with you. I think it would help to have a member or two of each of the largest several empires on board. It may also be beneficial to hash out details on one of the empires' forums or by pm and try to keep a thread going here for periodic updates.

I've stated my feelings about the metaverse and its positive impact on my gaming experience elsewhere already. The gist of it is, I think Stardock has something valuable and unique in the metaverse concept that no other design company offers, and if I can contribute anything to help it survive and grow, I am willing.

if I can contribute anything to help it survive and grow, I am willing.

I nag and bitch about the meta, but I know that it is an important part of this gaming community. I am on board, all the way.

I totally agree with you. I think it would help to have a member or two of each of the largest several empires on board

Sounds like we have a volunteer to canvas the opinions of HCH, I'll do the same with the Diplomats. Vukasia didn't seem too enthused but perhaps he can be encouraged to discuss it with his empire. Orca777 is the only Orca (I think) to post in this thread so perhaps he can bring it up with the Orca's. AFAIK that's the only empire's that have shown any sign of recent life.

I would encourage any other empires no matter how small to speak up and be counted. I'd rather have some folks be over represented than not represented at all. I suggest we go back to our empires and get a handle on how folks feel about the things we've discussed in this thread and any and all ideas folks have that would make the metaverse more attractive to all. Once we do that we can decide what to do from there. Sound like a plan?

I'll take an action item to chase down some of the other empire's. I noticed Farscry is now a member of the Browncoats which seems to be a rather large empire although this is the first I've noticed them.

Perhaps I or we or whoever can get with Kryo and the AltMeta data and figure out a way to sort empires and players by activity so we can find out who's really still playing. Actually, I've know some folks that have recently moved from apparently dead empires. It can't be that fun posting scores for an empire long dead.

Apologies to anyone or any empire I've left out, it's not intentional but if you don't speak up, everyone else will think you're dead. Also new metaverse players shouldn't be shy. Your opinion is as valuable as anyone else's.

find out who's really still playing

I think this will be easier to sort out once DA comes online in the metaverse. (It will, won't it?) I've pretty much abandoned DL for the time being in favor of playing the DA beta, and I'm probably not alone in that.

I will work on sounding out the HCH tonight - "Ask not what the Metaverse can do for you," or something to that effect.

I think this will be easier to sort out once DA comes online in the metaverse

Not necessarily easier to sort out but there should be a bit of an increase once DA comes online for MV play.

I was more thinking along the lines of Kryo's Alt Meta. It's basically just a sort on a subset of data from the MV. We could probably get some meaningful data from it. For example the Diplomats look to be a large empire but in the "real" MV there's no data to indicate how many are active. In the AltMeta2 listing it shows that the Diplomats have 108 members, but only 52 have submitted a game within the last 6 months.

Similarly the Orca's are listed as having 71 members of which 50 have submitted games in the last six months. This is interesting and useful data. It can be used to gauge the health of an empire. The HCH seems to be the healthiest with 103 total members and 94 with submissions within the last 6 months.

I think what can reasonably come of this representative thing is for a selected few ideas that have a reasonably large appeal that could be implemented into the sort of the AltMeta and could make things more interesting for people that like victory conditions other than military conquest and galaxy sizes other than gigantic. This could be done with no change to game code and would therefore be something that could actually be accomplished. This in itself could be sufficient to spark increased interest in the MV.

The thing that representation does is to cut down the number of voices to a manageable few and increase the likelyhood that a small set of reasonable and achieveable changes can be realistically implemented. There are probably a 100 good ideas that at least a handfull of people agree on, but what we need are a handfull of ideas that 100's of people agree on.

I posted a message about this over at the Galactic Core (which btw all are free and welcomed to visit) for discussion of this topic by the Diplomats. It's in the following thread.

How to Increase Interest and Participation in the Metaverse

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[edit] I'll let this sit for a couple of days at which time I'll take a poll and see if the Diplomats at least are in favor of some kind of representative metaverse council. Hopefully in the meantime each of the other empire's can be considering this as well. Clearly, not eveyone will agree with the concept, but I think we would need a pretty clear mandate that "most" metaverse players agree with this concept. What "most" is I'm not exactly sure, but I personally would consider 75% to be a pretty clear mandate, much less than that would not be clear. I'll check back in a few days. [/edit]

I think that we should organize, and send a message out to all the empires. Those who answer will be welcome to discuss the issues. We will also have to come up with an equal representation and voting system. We will either have to make our own forum or use one of the ones in existance. Those not in any empires will have to be somehow informed and directed towards the forum. Everyone should get equal say, no matter where they come from. But, we should also have rules of conduct and a way to make sure that there little background popular influence and the people should decide to what to support based on their own opinions not someone elses.

We will also have to come up with an equal representation and voting system

I just quoted the single sentance but I agree with pretty much all you're saying. I don't think we should get too hung up on anything too complicated. As I said I would rather run the risk of some folks being over represented than under represented. Certainly the group of metaverse players not in empires need representation as well.

As a SWAG (some wild ass guess) I would suggest something like two reps for major empires, one rep for minor empires and a handful of unaligned reps. It really all depends on how many active players there actually are. The best source of this kind of info is the AltMeta.

I wouldn't want to get too hung up on the precise distribution of the representation. At this point I'm more interested in finding out whether there's concensus for a representative council at all. If there is then that at least solves the why and we can then begin to think about the who, what, where, when and how.

I think that we should organize, and send a message out to all the empires

Great idea. Sounds like you're volunteering.   

people should decide to what to support based on their own opinions not someone elses.

Not sure what you're meaning here. I would think that the representatives would support things based on the opinions of those (s)he represents. But if you're saying that this shouldn't become a popularity contest I absolutely agree. We're looking to find a limited set of good improvements to the MV. We're not trying to come up with things that interest only a few and then try to get everyone else to buy into them.

I dont think the reps system should be based the way you said it should. What would be major what would be minor. I think that each empire that accepts the message automatically gets 1 rep. Then for each 10 extra members they get more, but there would be a limit of 10 or something. To avoid over representaion(to stop people whinning). Then we can adjust the representation based on the AltMeta data and the activity of those members. Also, the "freemens group"(or the people without empires) would not have a max, since they would be independent from the empires.

Ahah, guess i did kind of volunteer. I would need help since theres a few hundred empires. The question then comes up, do we send the message to all of them, or just the bigger ones? the ones who post the most? or the ones most connected to the community? who do we call forward?

Next, yes i did mean that it should not be a popularity contest. That means that we would have to have some kind of voting system where people would not know how the most influencial members voted. But, how the want to vote for the people they represent.

So any other ideas?

What's with all the new icons. First Mistralok then Marshall. What the hell is that anyway, Mary Poppins?    Or perhaps it's one of those characters from Mystery Theatre.   

Then we can adjust the representation based on the AltMeta data and the activity of those members. Also, the "freemens group"(or the people without empires) would not have a max, since they would be independent from the empires.

Sure, this is reasonable.

However, I don't want to get too mathematical about it and get hung up on 1 rep for every 25.3 players or something silly like that. If we can't come to a simple agreement about how to go about this then we probably won't agree on much else. Also it does depend on how many active players there are. I think we want a managable group, if we have 100 reps we may as well have none.

But most importantly at the moment, let's not get too tied up with the exact representation until we know we have enough folks interested to make it worthwhile.

[edit] One thing about representation. I feel it may not be that important dependent on how you reach a decision. I wouldn't want to "vote" on something and get a 51-49 result and then say OK we have to do it this way. I'd hope that we'd only recommend things that have an obvious concensus. If pretty much everyone agrees it really doesn't matter if this rep represents 20 people while that rep represents 50. [/edit]

[more edit] Also the level of objection should count as well. If a small group of folks absolutely hate an idea while most folks only kind of like it, I would think that it wouldn't be done. We have to avoid a stringent, regulated, legislated situation. That will never work. But if a handful of folks can be reasonable and work with the best interests of the metaverse in mind then I think we can have a positive effect. [/more edit]

Since this is thread is kind of limiting in the fact that not everyone that could be potential reps will see this. Some sort of contact via e-mail or something may be in order to get as many as possible on board. Which kind of brings me to another thing. What is considered an active empire? I was just, for the hell of it, looking through some empire membership data and noticed for instance, The Overmind has only had two people submit a game since the begining of Nov. and one since the start of Dec. Both those members I have not seen posting here in a while. There's other empires out there in the same situation, where it seems their emperor even is no longer playing. That may limit the people that are active from speaking for their empire, since they feel it's the emperor's place to do that. I think an attempt at least to contact emperors or senators first, if they defer to other members or don't reply at all then contact according to activity. Some one with good social skills should draw up a "standard" letter to greet and offer participation. See what kind of responses are recieved, then you can better gauge how well this might actually work.

O.K. I've rambled enough, just some thoughts.

Some one with good social skills should draw up a "standard" letter to greet and offer participation. See what kind of responses are recieved, then you can better gauge how well this might actually work.

Boy the volunteers just keep poping up all over the place.    Great idea, sounds like you have the social skills for the job.   

A simple note about my philosophy. I believe that "it's far easier to apologize that to ask permission". Grace Hopper. If you see something that needs doing then it behooves you to do it. If everyone waits around for someone else to make a decision nothing will ever happen.  

I'm not sure how empires work yet.
But if they are anything like clans / guilds etc.

Then the easiest / best way to get this done is for the person who originally had the idea (Mumble? I can't be bothered to re-read the entire thread. I read it once already!) to suggest it to their (I used the 3rd person plural as I'm unsure of your geneder. ) emperor. If they like the idea, they should contact a few others (top 5ish?). If they all agree then they should set it up, and invite all the other empires to join.

Oh, also, each empire should have 1 vote regardless of size. Although putting a small size requirement on membership would make sense.

On a bit of a side topic: What serial do I use to make a character?

Well then, since we have basicly agreed to do something. I think that a general list should be drawn up of all possible recruitments. Then a message should be sent to the top 10 empires. And their most active senetors/overlords should take over from there. We need a basic list of people who want to actually make the contacts and organize this. As well as some leaders, then we can get this thing going and make a council session planned and issues necessary for discussion.

We cant just expect one of us to do it, we need to divide the task amongst those that want to help. I for one do, so i volunteer.

What serial do I use to make a character?

You don't need a serial number to create a charachter. You do need to be logged in and either at the home page or in the metaverse area. You can then go into my account and select manage characters.

I want to say that I think the idea of a Representative Metaverse Council sounds like a great idea, and I believe that the HCH will support this. I've started some discussions on the HCH thread on this issue, and hopefully will get a general idea on how everyone feels about it soon. Already a few people from the HCH have posted on here approving of the idea, and so that leads me to believe it will go over well with the rest of the HCH.

I'll keep you guys posted,
AlexAtticus

I for one do, so i volunteer.

I think we're at the stage where we're going back to our respective empires and making the case and seeing if there's general agreement. Certainly feel free to take it on yourself to contact as many as you can. I think all interested should spread the word whenever they get the chance. Word of mouth will probably be sufficient.

I think a couple of days to discuss and then take a poll or otherwise come to agreement over whether each empire likes the concept or not. I think that the Orca's, Diplos, HCH and Arrakis probably represent the bulk of MV players. I'll take an action item to go through the AltMeta data and see if there's any other concentration of players out there. I don't think we need to turn up every rock just to decide whether or not to do this.

If the bulk of MV players do seem to favor this then we can scour the bushes and dig up the probably few scattered players that are stuck in dead empires. The real problem will be finding unaligned players because the AltMeta only takes data from the top 50 empires due to technical reasons. Anyway we're a ways from deciding whether or not to actually do this. Once we decide that we can start to work on how we're going to go about doing this.

Well I don't have the greatest organizational skills, but here's what I'm thinking. Setup an email just for the response purpose, unless you think it's better to try to get people to respond on here. I'll get a rough draft together and post it in this thread to make sure it meets the goals and ideas of those already involved. The only thing I'm worried about is the approach. I don't want people to just disregard it without responding. I don't mind doing some digging and finding out who the best people to contact are within each empire. I also need to get a system together for which unaligned people would be best to contact.

Now I have a couple of quesations regarding this. If I use the straight up email option here, who does it show the sender as and return email? If it's mine then I'll just change mine to the response email account, which I would also give you access to, since your the lead on this. If a council comes to light they can just take over the account for whatever purpose.I will also put the response email in the letter to make sure.

This letter will basically be for gathering interest in a council for furthering the metaverse, so I was going to leave out all the ideas that have come up so far. Figured that is for after, plus if we direct them here they'll get the picture anyway. There will be a link to this thread in there as well. This endeavor may take a few days(at least the weekends coming up). There is a lot of senators in some of the empires, so I'll be trying emperors first and give them sufficient time to respond before going the long route. What do you think sufficient response time should be?

And lastly, I'd like to know what(if any) other specific you guys think should be in the letter besides what I mentioned. It may be Friday before I can get the letter together. I'm really not a great writer, but I figure running by you guys will get it in shape before it goes out.

And very lastly  , If anyone else wants to help in getting this done, I'd be most appreciative. We could coordinate our efforts and get it taken care of faster.

I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is, let's hope it pays off. I have never been as involved with a game community as I am with this one and will do my best to help it flourish even further.

Let me know what you think.  

Edit: man there's been a pile of replies since I started writing this  Some of it may already be obsolete