Forgot one last thing.

Mumble, as for the Senetors and the Reps. I think one body of reps will be hard to manage, but two would definetly be pushing it. I think that each "influencial" empire should be able to choose a "leader" in the Council. This person would act as a general moderator, and will also be responsible for making tough decision when things get touchy. They will be like the inner circle of the Council. But, that could be seen as a concentration of power, and we dont want to raise eyebrows or discourage the less active Empires. We will have to tread carefully with this one.

I personally would favor going towards a system that ended up with a single representative from each active empire (senators) and the remaining elected "at large" (representatives).

This is Ideal. The way I see it, if an Empire has 2 "Ambassadors" elected to the council, and they each have a vote and truly vote the way their empire wants them to, then you are going to end up with 2 votes identical for the same Empire. Having only 1 Ambassador would simplify things greatly.

We could make this extremely complicated if we really wanted to by...

1.) For every (insert #) members an empire has, they are allowed an Ambassador.

2.) Each Empire may be represented by only 1 Ambassador.

3.) The Top X active Empires may be represented by 1 Ambassador or
A.) For every X members an Empire has it gets an Ambassador or
B.) X number of Ambassadors for 1st place Empire, 2nd place Empire... ect.ect.

I could go on but I think you all get my point.

Having trouble with this post so I will have to break it into 2 seperate posts.

Here is where we may run into trouble. We want everyone to have a say. How is that going to be represented? I have an idea, not sure how good it will be, but it is an idea none the less.

1. An Empire must have X members before they can be represented by an Ambassador within the counsel, or must have posted X amount of points as an Empire.

2. An Empire has a single Ambassador who will vote on "bills" brought before the council.

3. An Empire who does not met the criteria to have an Ambassador may have a representative. These Representatives can align themselves to an Empire who does have an Ambassador. For every X amount of representatives aligned with said Empire, the Empire has another vote.

Example, the Diplos have 1 Ambassador and 3 Representatives from other Empires aligned with them. During a vote, the Ambassador has 1 vote for his Empire, they vote yes. 2 of the 3 Representatives from the aligned Empires do not like the proposition, therefore the second vote must be no. A more official and defined capacity can be dictated at a later date. (It would be beneficial to the Aligned Empires to participate in forum discussions both on the official site as well as the Empires forums) In turn creating more participation all the way around.

4. All non - sanctioned, active players are free to choose a single Ambassador to represent them. I would suggest they create a thread here on these forums and direct others to it.

5. All Empires who do not meet the criteria to have there own Ambassador may either follow the non - sanctioned Ambassador, or elect a representative from their Empire and form an "Alliance" with an Empire who has an Ambassador. Choice would be theirs.

This would give everyone an opportunity for a single vote.

OK, that's the Idea. Like it? Hate it?

Just an idea Sorry it was so long.

The written document, will just state or means, purpose, and general rules. It shouldn’t be longer that 1 page, maybe 2 if we highlight certain things. And yes I think that amendments should have an overwhelming majority of approval, and decision doubly so. Though with some touchy ones we might even want to submit those to a public poll.

So I guess this 1 to 2 page document will be our Constitution for lack of a better word. Well, let’s try and keep it to 1 page whatever a page is. Then this Constitution would obviously need to be ratified by all four empires and in fact would need to occur prior to the formation of the council. OK I guess this is doable. Not quite sure what you mean by an amendment versus a decision, but overwhelming approval certainly confers legitimacy.

You’ve apparently volunteered to write this Constitution. So when do you think you’ll have the first draft for our perusal? I suggest you open a new thread for that specific purpose. I’m sure it’s discussion is going to be a long one. My advice is to try to be succinct and specify as little as you feel is absolutely necessary. It may also be good to write things out as individual, numbered rules (perhaps we should call them commandments, maybe ten would be a good number) instead of flowing prose.

Now for elections, those will be troublesome. So for the time being the empires should be able to choose which way they want.

It seems you’re agreeing that the method of future elections can be decided by the council itself. Therefore the precise nature of them is pure speculation. We have enough things to worry about without having to decide that prior to the formation of the council.

as for the Senators and the Reps

I was not suggesting two separate bodies. I agree one body will be sufficiently difficult to manage. What I was more talking about was a suggestion for future elections that perhaps half of the members could be appointed by each “influential” empire and the rest elected by whatever means. Again, I think we’ve agreed that the details of future elections can be decided by the council once it’s formed.

you are going to end up with 2 votes identical for the same Empire.

Not totally true but possibly. Each empire doesn’t necessarily have a homogenous opinion. Two representatives from an empire may very well express this.

We could make this extremely complicated if we really wanted to

Please don’t. We need to use the KISS principle here. In my opinion it’s already starting to get out of hand. This is evidenced by the fact that folks are having to write too many posts that are too large and need to be broken into two pieces.

When we get to the point of having to break our posts into three pieces then we’ve gone too far. I’ve already had to start generating these posts in Word and cutting and pasting them into multiple posts. This is at least the third post I felt obligated to write that’s into my second page of the Word Doc and will have taken me close to an hour to write by the time I’m done, and this is to decide nothing of substance, just discussing procedural crap.

I envision a few meetings with a few decisions as to how to set up the AltMeta followed by great long periods of inactivity. It seems that some people view this as a political future. If you want the job of being one of these representatives you should be automatically excluded.

We need to use the KISS principle here

I agree completely. I was just trying to state that it could become over complicated very easily. Sorry I did not get that across very well.

So far all I have really seen in the form of creating a counsel surrounds the four empires. Not that I am really complaining, I am apart of one of them. May I ask what is going to be done to represent everyone else? ( I think they would make up the other half, if not more, of those who participate in the Metaverse.)

Each empire doesn’t necessarily have a homogenous opinion.

This depends on how difficult you want to make it. You said yourself you want to follow the KISS principle. Therefore, an Empire should either be for, or against a certain topic. You can set the percentages yourself. 60% or above could be a yes vote, whatever the Empire decides. In essence, if you have 2 reps and place 2 votes, one yes and one no, you have simply negated your empires vote.

Again I pose the question... How will everyone who wants a say, get one?

BTW Quixen, the complexity rant wasn't particularly addressed towards you. You just happened to provide a good segue into the topic. But in my mind it's a very real danger. I think if this is set up so that the reps actually do represent large groups of metaverse players, and you require a significant majority of them to agree, then you're pretty much guaranteed to have a popular decision. TheGreatEmperor is correct in saying you need to have some things in writing, but it’s so easy to go the way of over-legislation. I think this constitution will be a good test. Let’s see how much in-fighting and grief occurs over getting what should be a simple thing accepted.

May I ask what is going to be done to represent everyone else?

As far as anything I've seen, there've been no other empires to speak up and say “what about us”, so that leaves unaligned players. I would like to include "unaligned" representatives ASAP. I suggested that we include two right from the start. TheGreatEmperor voiced some concern about that. I don't remember precisely what the concern was but I kind of agree that trying to deal with that along with getting approval from the 4 empires we have, along with ratifying our constitution, along with selecting reps from each empire, is not something we have to do instantly.

We could as easily (probably easier) wait until the council is formed and deal with how to get unaligned reps as one of the first orders of business. You may be very well correct about the numbers. Actually that brings up a good point. Another first order of business for the council would be to come up with some method of doing a metaverse census. But I truly think we need to avoid something like we need 1 rep for every 25 (or whatever) players or some such rule. It’s not a bad thing to use as a guideline but as a rule, it would be quite a pain. People do come and go quite frequently here. I want to avoid thrashing around trying to religiously match the numbers of reps and players. I would really hate to get involved with what could become metaverse gerrymandering.

How will everyone who wants a say, get one?

By simply speaking up as you and TheGreatEmperor and many others have done throughout this thread and other related threads that have sprouted up. I doubt we would have council deliberations in a vacuum; we would probably have open threads to discuss possible actions that everyone would be free to comment on. The only thing will be when it comes time to vote only the reps will do so. Even so, I think the internal council votes should be made on a public thread for all to see.

Well, at least I kept this response to a single post.

Actually, I wish G.W. Swicord would comment on this directly. I think he's reluctant to comment since he's yet to post a metaverse game, but I think with his political science background he could provide some realistic guidence.

Yes, we are alraedy geting quite a head of ourselves. We are overplanning, without even the first steps done. We should wait for the Empires approval, then we should open another thread fot he discussion of the responsibilities of the Council, and the rules that should be set in stone. This council will improve the Metaverse, but only if the members see us as capable. Even if the Empires aprove, this wont mean that we will get anywhere, we need to get others intrested. So i propose this make the first meetings completly public, everyone can vote for whatever they want, everyone will state an opinion, and everyone who posted on the thread before will get to vote. This will encourage people to state an opinion and become involved. Then after the first or second meeting, voting will become reserved to the Reps and Ambasdors. This will make sure that the Empires do not dictate the formation of the Council, but the members will.

Okay, as for the Representation System. No, i dont think that representation should be made by the population of the Metaverse, at least not numbers of people posting games. Although we might be able to do that. For now the Empires will each have 2 reps. Even though Quixen brough up a good point, i think that hopefully the Empires wont dictate how the Reps vote. The Reps wont be anomatronic machines giong by what the Empire tells them, they will vote based on their opinion, and the opinions of the group of members the represent. Thos unalligned will get members based on the amount of people intrested. Its nice to see taht people are already interested, but we really have to keep things limited. The last thing we want to do is make this proses complicated. This will make us do the opposite of what we want to accomplish.

More individual and group competition medals might help as well. It true that metals are nothing more than little trinkets on your post, but there is still some sense of accomplishment (and lets not discuss the real importance of computer games on the grand scale of things )...For instance:

1st, 2nd, 3rd and top 10 highest scoring game medals for each map/difficulty size.

1st, 2nd, 3rd and top 10 highest scoring metaverse score in total for each difficulty level. (same as what you get when you go to the metaverse and sort by difficulty)

1st, 2nd, 3rd and top 10 highest scoring metaverse game period. (This is what I was doing with my recent 500K game, even with no medal for it...)

This would offer up more challenges. So rather than trying to be top of the metaverse, you could decide to try for the top scoring tiny/tough game, etc. I think this would also help offer up something for the new player. I simply don't have any interest in playing games on easier settings at this point and would take myself out of the competition for the lower level difficulty games, helping make them available for the new player. I suspect most of the established players would follow a similar pattern. This would also be something where a computer could easily assign the metals to the appropriate players. I think this would effectively give us player brackets...
Where as I agree with most of your comments, I don't think the established players should be penalised..
It is not their fault that they bought the game six months before someone else - I am a new player but I do respect the fact that others have played for a LOT longer - you can see from the rankings...
What we need is MORE players of all diffs.....

TheGreatEmperor, it doesn't make sense for me to quote your entire post to say that I agree with pretty much everything you just said.

However, I do think it's a good idea to start some effort on this constitution. Anything anyone puts out would of course be a strawman position to be used to start the discussion rolling.

AFAIK the voting (BTW I did start a poll within the Diplomats) that's currently occuring is really only defining whether or not each empire supports the formation of a metaverse council. I also think it's necessary for each empire to approve the written declaration of the metaverse council's purpose and methods.

You've seemed to express the the most interest so I think you should take the first shot at writing this constitution. Is this something you'd be willing to do?

What we need is MORE players of all diffs.....

Yep. That's true. The scoring method should also be such that new players can reasonably compete with long term players, but that long term players shouldn't be penalized either. It will be a balancing act that's sure to not be perfect, but perfection isn't required, only improvement is required. And improvement, in my opinion, is defined by the level of interest and participation in the metaverse by the general GC2 population.

We dont want to get rid of current ranks. We want to expand them. Sure, we will add more penilties so that those who have been active before will still want to be active. But, i think this isnt about scores anymore, its about involvement, we want to increase intrest in the sake of making the Meta more fun.

As for the Constitution, i have come up with one small clause already.

The Document of the Council, will only function as long as all the undersigned approve that it is doing its role in the community correctly. If at any point a group within the Meta(Empire) stops supporting its rules and views on the improvements to the Metaverse, than the Constitution would be submited for debate in the Council, and reaproved by at least 80% of all members. If disaproval continues, the Council ill be suspended untill improvements should be made upon its functioning.

This should make sure that the Council will be kept fair and that the majority of the members within the Meta, and not only the Council aprove of the Document(Consitituion) and the role the Council is playing in the community.

Next, it will bring about this clause.

To become part of the Council a group of Metaverse Players(Empire) will have to follow these steps.
1. Approve the Consituion by a majority of the group, and that groups leader.
2. Choose a Represntative by rules difined by either the Council at the current time.
3. Remain active and supportive of the Improvements and Rules of the Council untill granted full membership.

This should make sure that the people joining would be acceptive of the our Rules, untill we are sure that they will stay active and therefore be able to give good support or opposition to Improvements voted on.

Now, i dont have much time to write currently(Exams). But, i will open up a thread for discussion today. The writting should occur sometimes mid-week of next week. Unless, a replacement or better individual is choosen.

i will open up a thread for discussion today. The writting should occur sometimes mid-week of next week. Unless, a replacement or better individual is choosen.

Looks to be a good start. Open up the thread and I'm sure there will be plenty of good input. In some sense with the contribution of many it may effectively write itself. In the end perhaps an editor is more what it will need than a writer.

G.W. Swicord again comes to mind.

G.W. Swicord again comes to mind

Yea, I haven't seen G.W. say much about this, but as good member of this community his input is welcome. Just, if he writes it up, I hope I don't need a dictionary to decipher it  .

Yes, lets keep the constitution simple, so everyone can understand it.

I hope I don't need a dictionary to decipher it

It is good to keep a sense of humor about all of this and to not take ourselves too seriously.   

Definetly, we are trying to build a better Metaverse, not change the world.

BTW Quixen, the complexity rant wasn't particularly addressed towards you. You just happened to provide a good segue into the topic.

First I must apologize, I can be pretty thick headed especially early in the morning.    After reading the"Ideas for a Constitution" thread, I felt compelled to reply. Once I read the replies I received I finally understood what was going on. Damn, sometimes I swear I am dense. Here I am thinking you all are discussing forming the council completely and this whole time you were simply talking about forming a provisional council who would establish the laws that would govern the official Metaverse Council. Not sure why I missed it... That is what's going on... Right?

It seems that some people view this as a political future. If you want the job of being one of these representatives you should be automatically excluded.

Second I agree and disagree with this statement. If someone wants this position because they believe it will give them some sort of political power, then I agree, they have no business becoming a part of the council. This is about the betterment of the game. This is about us, all of us, not about generating power and distributing it amongst the few but about creating a more intense, interactive Metaverse that people will want to take part in. I disagree because you do not want someone nominated to take a representative position who does not want to be there, or simply does not care.

Things are rolling along rather nicely. Thanks for everyone's hard work.  

I am thinking you all are discussing forming the council

No, you we're right the first time. I've no interest in setting up a committee to discuss the setting up of a committee. We are talking about setting a metaverse council to actually try to do something. That’s not to say there won’t be some of what you’re talking about though. The council should and will evolve over time.

For example, at the moment the four founding empires are the best and most reasonable surrogate for all metaverse players. But once established, the council should seek to represent *all* metaverse players. If the council is successful in this then clearly the council is a better representation of all metaverse players than the founding empires are, but we have to start from someplace. If we tried to have an open vote of all metaverse players it would just be chaos. I don't believe that anything could ever get accomplished that way. Hope this makes some vague kind of sense.

Second I agree and disagree with this statement.

You're right on both counts here.

What we must avoid is the false sense of power this Council will generate. People will think that they are in some kind of position to dictate things, but they fail to realise its just a game, that they once agreed to better. For this reason, we need to set some countermeasures, but as Mumble said before, hopefully the Council will start with relitively intelligent people.

we need to set some countermeasures

I don't believe we need any countermeasures against bad behavior. Public opinion will be counter measure enough. If representatives let power (as if this is any great amount of power) go to their heads and end up doing things counter to the general interest, the council will quickly find itself ignored and most likely ridiculed.

The idea that we need to provide a system of checks and balances, while in some sense an altruistic thing to do, will in this case simply lead us down a rat hole of ridiculous rules covering god knows what with exceptions needed for this, that and the other thing. If in the end you can't trust your reps then the whole thing is doomed anyway. I don't want to doom it right out of the gate by trying to legislate all behavior.

I don't really think that this is your intent, and I don’t want to discourage your participation and contribution, but most of your arguments so far have seemed to have this effect.

Simplicity is a must. I think there is already enough ideas here and at the Constition thread to pull 5-10 simple one or two line rules together and thats as complex as it needs to be. I've been pretty quiet so far, but this doesn't need to get caught up in worrying about possible indiscretions and the like. That can be dealt with by the council when/if the need arises. There is no "power" really associated with any of this anyway, since there is no personal gain to be had. I've already seen what/who will most likely become the council and have full faith in their abilities to accomplish the original goals set. Don't over think this thing, that will only stifle the process.

btw This post is not directed at any one person, just my thoughts on the easiest route to the goal.

Long live the Metaverse.

I am not saying there will be power, but a false sense of it would probably be generated by those that are ambitious. Hopefully this wont happen. But, yes i am getting quite ahead of myself, and i agree that over complecating things will just lead to more problems than solutions.

No, you we're right the first time.

I was?

I've no interest in setting up a committee to discuss the setting up of a committee.

You must have misunderstood what I was trying to convey.

forming a provisional council who would establish the laws that would govern the official Metaverse Council.

The way I thought it was going to happen was we were trying to set up the council completely. Including representing the smaller Empires as well as the unaligned Metaverse players.

Then I began to understand the philosophy and wording of the earlier posts and realized that this was not the case. We are actually trying to construct a council which will evolve to include them once the formalities of establishing said council were finalized. Correct?

once established, the council should seek to represent *all* metaverse players.

The council should and will evolve over time.

I completely understand and agree with the way things are progressing. Everyone working on this has my full support. I was just trying to get a better grasp of what exactly was being discussed. As I stated before, I must have missed it due to the time and not being completely alert. I do humbly apologize for anything I may have suggested in earlier posts due to my lack of understanding.

Just another update from the HCH. Elections have started! We have five candidates, so we should start getting an idea of which two members will come from the HCH. We have also so far had 100% support for the Council. I'll continue to update as things develop.

AlexAtticus