MarshallONeil

Join Date 03/2006

M2TW: A case study in professional forum whining

I have been loosely following the development saga of CA's new game title, Medieval 2: Total War. I found a post today on one of their allied forums that I want to share. Normally I just ignore trolling, but having just posted about egregious whining in the Metaverse forum, I felt compelled to share this:

CA/Sega Bit Off More Than They Can Chew?

Note how the OP sets you up beautifully with an abrasive title and then launches straight into a loosely-themed multi-paragraph rant. Next, people start to agree with him, then there is an attempt to voice a reasoned opinion; but blood is in the water and the mini-rants keep rolling on. Unlike this forum, there seem to be few people on that board willing to try to rein in the trolls.

There's been some nasty whining in the GalCiv II forums, and I hate to see it here. But after seeing the level of trash that goes on elsewhere, I have to conclude that our local whiners are amateurs by comparison.

I post this in hopes that it will illustrate how much better the GalCiv 2 forums generally are than others, and also the level to which a forum can sink if people let it do so.

Side note: Interestingly, Stardock gets a nice shout-out in that thread where somebody writes, "If you ever have played Gal Civ II that dev group seems to be the best ive seen yet."

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But after seeing the level of trash that goes on elsewhere, I have to conclude that our local whiners are amateurs by comparison.

This could be construed as a compliment or an insult, depending on the person reading it of course. There is also a fine line between what constitutes "whining" vs. "complaining", and I doubt that you could disagree with this. In a way, it almost seems like you are implying that our group of whiners needs to take a few courses in the art of properly whining so that they can "be all that they can be".
The bottom line is always going to be this:
The internet is what it is, like it, hate it... it is here to stay. Because of this, we find ourselves brought together in such ways that decades ago simply couldn't have been, barring some "Woodstock" type of event, and you see what can happen with that. To form our opinion of like or dislike, or say that someone is a troll, whiner, complainer, asshole, great person, knowledgeable player, insightful diplomat, whatever, is just wrong. Even I am guilty of this, but I admit it and try to rectify the behavior, ahem. We all have one thing in common in here, aside from the blood that runs through our veins, and that is this game. Some of us are simply ignorant, i.e. me, while others are the most helpful I've ever encountered. Some of us rant, others read the rant and move on. Diversity, the spice of life. There's a lot more going on out there than the internet, the Metaverse, this game, or anything remotely related to what we are rambling about on this forum.
I know this rant isn't constructive of the OP, but I had to do it (pleading the ignorance loophole). Life is too short for us to piddle with this minor crap, especially over something like a GAME.
This broadcast has been aired by the Empire of Standards Ministry of Disinformation.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

This could be construed as a compliment or an insult, depending on the person reading it of course.

Overall, I think Marshall meant it as a compliment.

To form our opinion of like or dislike, or say that someone is a troll, whiner, complainer, asshole, great person, knowledgeable player, insightful diplomat, whatever, is just wrong.

I mostly agree with this but would ammend it slightly. I think that everyone is all of these things at one time or another, it's just a matter of degree and subjective opinion. The person that tries to be helpful but denies he can be an asshole is just as foolish as the person that takes pride in being an asshole but denies he can be helpful.

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Unlike this forum, there seem to be few people on that board willing to try to rein in the trolls.

Given this line, I think he meant it as an insult.

What's the deal, Marshall? Is this place really so bad?

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I don't know enough about that game to know what problems they've been having. It seems to me he's more upset about being kept in the dark. Like I said, I don't know enough about the game or the devs.

What I can say, is Stardock has been awesome. Even when they told us the Epic Story Generator wouldn't make it, they were ncie enough to apologise and give us advanced notice, and an explanation.

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Even when they told us the Epic Story Generator wouldn't make it, they were ncie enough to apologise and give us advanced notice, and an explanation.

And they solicited opinions on what they should try instead. I think it will be back in another form (logging) but with speed, starbases and other issues taking priority, it might be awhile.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

Unlike this forum, there seem to be few people on that board willing to try to rein in the trolls.

I look at the same sentence and read it as a (perhaps backhanded) compliment. Maybe it's a glass half full vs. half empty kind of thing. I read it as meaning there are folks here that try to "rein the trolls" and there are very few such folks there.

I still go back to Evil's point that the labeling of someone as a troll is wrong. Not morally wrong, but factually wrong. This threads troll may be the next threads insightful diplomat and vice versa. Who is what is very dependent on when and where.

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Alstein

Join Date 07/2004

+55

Seriously, they have a point. Companies like Stardock have made me expect a lot more out of game devs then previously. Not saying Stardock is perfect, but they are one of the best ones out there (I think highly of Paradox as well, and Blizzard has a good rep- though I hate Blizzard games)

That said, Sega gets the benefit of the doubt from me- if just for their past- and in the case of M2TW, the TW series has always been more then a bit buggy.

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the thing is, you see this in EVERY forum for EVERY game.

as soon as a game is released, you get a lot more people on the forums (depending on the size of the game) and most of the new people are whiners. the percentage of whiners increases in direct proportion to the hype/size of the game. the whiners then create numerous threds saying the same things, and bash anyone who trys to defend a game as "fanboys" - in the thread mentioned above (wich i've also been reading since its started) one person is accused of WORKING for the company.

in fact, the only forum i've ever been to that didn't have a large number of idiots was the Take Command - Second Manasiss forum. that had about three threads i think.

people like to complain, they like to shout that anything that doesn't fit with their idea of a game is a bug.

People Are Stupid.

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People Are Stupid.

DITTO

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I don't get it, this guy's post isn't that bad. I don't have the game, but he isn't really ranting and it's overall a reasoned post.

I tend to agree with him. The software business is pretty much full of this tactic (good or bad), and I don't care for it. GC2 had some of this in the initial release, but it was still a very good game.

The only real thing to do is ignore the hype, and don't buy stuff right when it comes out. If enough folks did that, maybe the game software business would change its ways.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

People Are Stupid.

DITTO

I thought labeling people was wrong. But you did admit that even you can be guilty of this. Perhaps this is just one of those cases.

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Well, I've followed both companies/games for a while, own both games, and taken part in both forums. I can say that CA and SD are polar opposites with respect to message boards and dissemination of information in general. While StarDock is all over these forums answering questions, responding to suggestions, etc., CA takes a very aloof approach. The simplest questions ("Is this feature going to be included in M2TW?") go unanswered/ignored for (literally) months.

The link above is to fan site forums, not the official forums. If you take a look at the official forums, you might get a better idea of why CA remains so aloof and quiet. Those forums are just awful. It's like a convention of 12 year olds (no offense to any 12 year olds present

). The moderators wield a VERY heavy ban and threadlock stick, but it still doesn't help. It's really quite disgusting, and CA earns some extra respect from me for not giving up on developing games entirely!

One thing you will find about the TW community is that they're very passionate. That applies particularly to the modders. They have basically devoted their free time to the franchise for years and years. Because of that, they tend to get very critical of each new game that comes out.

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People Are Stupid.

DITTO

I thought labeling people was wrong. But

Labelling individuals is wrong. "People", as a group, are stupid. For example:
Darfur, Kosovo, the Holocaust, prohibition, Salem witch hunts, etc.

The nice thing about playing a really geeky, difficult game is that the game itself weeds out the intellectually-challenged. That one fact helps this to be an interesting forum. This is really the only forum I visit, because the comments and thoughts expressed here are (usually) well thought out and interesting. Even the rants are literate and thoughtful. Let the Great Unwashed have their Wiis. It keeps them out of my hair!

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I thought labeling people was wrong. But you did admit that even you can be guilty of this. Perhaps this is just one of those cases.

Labelling individuals is wrong. "People", as a group, are stupid.

I was going to defend my take on the people are stupid... but Oz did it for me quite nicely. To justify my comment I will say this:
The people I work with are mostly hunters. I myself do not hunt, nor do I have the need to. As long as I have money to purchase food, I feel that I am fine. My issue arises when I see all the joy that these co-workers take in going out and killing a deer. Some hunt for food, others for sport (and the rack) but none are what you call "hungry", as food, and the money to buy it, is readily available.
Now I admit that this irks me enough to say something, to which it's pretty much like here on the forum, I get ganged up on. My defense for myself is that I would sooner shoot a person than an innocent animal, period. The reason being is that animals really don't know anything more than eat, sleep, poop, and mate (not always in that order). Now even though I do know some "people" who resemble little more than what I said about the animals, I will be nice and refrain. To get back to my point, people DO know better. It is just a matter of the individual choosing whether they want to know better, or not. Hence, I could easily gun you down... for ignorance, for being mean, for destroying humanity even (think George Bush).
I realize this was hard to read since I am not being too clear (at work...) but I don't think a person in particular is stupid. I believe that we are all stupid. I believe that because I wake up every day and see the same thing that all of you see... and quite frankly, I just shake my head and wonder how we are allowed to "be".

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The nice thing about playing a really geeky, difficult game is that the game itself weeds out the intellectually-challenged

Only in theory

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I mean whining is normal. Each person have a limited amount of knowelege about a game. Thus if you have too much free time and you wanna talk, what other choices do you have except saying "I t sux", "Gna gna gna !!!". Etc.

Also i dont really see a reason to whine about the beta. In fact i am quite surprised the beta is this GOOD. I mean the balance is nice. The bugs are few. Few tweaks and the game would be perfect.

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Only in theory

On the money. Look no further than this thread for proof.

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On the money. Look no further than this thread for proof.

Thanks Wheeloffire for sending me to that damned Strategy post! I think my eyeballs are starting to ooze blood... (walks away from monitor shaking head, wiping eyes)

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Look no further than this thread for proof.

So who was the bigger idiot? The guy who started the thread, the guy who agreed with the dumbass/sarcastic strategy, or the guy who wasted his time writing up that dumbass/sarcastic strategy?

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the guy who agreed with the dumbass/sarcastic strategy,

If you're talking about shadowmaster then your question has already been answered.

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Mumblefratz

Join Date 07/2006

+139

People Are Stupid.

DITTO

I thought labeling people was wrong. But

Labelling individuals is wrong. "People", as a group, are stupid.

Sufficient response.

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People as a group - uh, how many does it take to make a group? 2 or more? So, from this I logically deduce that a person by himself is not stupid, but when he is with someone he becomes stupid. So, let's think about what it means to be "with someone" to become stupid. Does one have to physically be with someone to become stupid, or can one be virtually with someone and become stupid? If the latter and not the former, then consider all the posters here, including myself. We ARE Stupid. This conversation supports that conclusion as well

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Considering this, the more people are in a group the stupider it becomes. Thus this tread should become more and more stupid with time.

S.T.U.P.I.D

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The only thing stupid here is the assclown canuck with nothing to contribute to the thread.

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Whoa, dudes, gimme back my thread.

Hm. I made the original post as a side note and then left for a conference that lasted the rest of the day. Thank you all for making it a far more interesting topic than I had anticipated.

I did indeed mean it as a backhanded compliment to this forum, as in 'this is how bad it could be.'

"be all that they can be".

Bwahahahaha - thank you, that was hysterical! I needed that.

I try to remember my Kierkegaard and avoid labeling people; I think it's much more meaningful to point out a thread as 'flaming', or whatever, than to go after the poster, who after all may just be having a bad day.

One of the best features of this forum is the unusually high concentration of intelligent and rational posts to be found here. If I get out of line, I fully expect someone to call me on it. There's nothing wrong with complaining; it's part of how problems get solved and everyone has his/her pet issues, including me. It's the few posts that make this forum look like that other one that get under my skin.

The bottom line is that I enjoy participating in this forum, I like the game, and I care about the game's future development. I've seen what can happen here when a major change in the game, like the possible upcoming starship movement cap, is announced, and I wanted to raise some awareness. I'll go back to posting strategies, tips, and the occasional silly joke now.

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