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Scorpiuscat
Scorpiuscat
Join Date 04/2003
+1

Starbases need to be tougher

September 7, 2006 10:44:09 AM from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
A fully armed Starbase with all the advanced defenses is too easily taken out.

A small group of ships can take out a starbase and not even suffer that much.

It should take fleets of bad a** ships to take out a fully armed Starbase and it would be very cool to get the 3D battle screen with starbases as well.

I would love to see a group of ships battle a Starbase.
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Scorpiuscat
Fuzzybunnies
Join Date 08/2006
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Reply #1 September 7, 2006 11:13:55 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I think the argument is that its tough to balance them out without making them too ridiculously powerful.

Just thinking offhand, one option could be to assign a hull size to a starbase, then have an offense/defence slider and an upgrade button. When you hit upgrade, it automatically takes a week (or two or more in other spheres of influence) to upgrade to x number of your best weapons and armor.

IE if the slider is at 30% and a starbase has 100 spaces, it would cram as many of your best weapon into 30 spaces as it can, then fill the rest with armor.

You could also have buttons for beam/missile/mass and shield/ecm/armor where it divides up the space between them.

IE 100 spaces, 30%, click beam and missile and click shield, ecm and armor. You get 15 spaces of your best beam and missile each, and 23 spaces each of your best shield/ecm and armor.

This would reduce some of the ridiculous constructor spam you need for these starbases. You could tie the total number of spaces to the battlestation level of the starbase, IE mkII would have more than mkI and just make each battlestation level more expensive.

This way, battlestations scale to your tech level right to the end game.

Wee, another starbase idea that's going to vanish into the nether depths!
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Scorpiuscat
No118
Join Date 04/2006
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Reply #2 September 7, 2006 11:39:18 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Well, while we're throwing around starbase ideas that will vanish into nothingness...

My idea is that you design starbases like ships, using hull space. Perhaps you'd have a choice between tiny/small/medium/large/huge starbases, with increasing levels of space (more than a ship of the same size), or if you want to keep it simple, just have a single size, perhaps around the same as a large ship.

You'd have special modules that could only be added to starbases- mining modules, military boosts, influence boosts, economy boosts, trading boosts (same as the ones you get already basically), but you wouldn't be able to add engines or range.

Since you can't build these in spaceports, you'd still need constructors. Each construction module would get a certain number of BCs worth of work done, and you'd be able to add more than one construction module per construction ship. The station would slowly build up, and its current level of effectiveness would depend on how much of it was complete- if you'd sent 10% of the constructors it needed, weapons, armour and processing would all work at 10% of maximum.

When you want to upgrade your starbase, the first part of the cost is made up by perhaps about 75% of the original cost of the starbase, and then you make the rest up using more constructors.

It'll never happen of course. Maybe it wouldn't work well anyway. It was just a thought.
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Scorpiuscat
Heroine4Life
Join Date 10/2004
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Reply #3 September 7, 2006 11:40:45 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
guh
starbases are fine the way they are

if you have problems defending them then just put a fleet of ships on it.
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Kblore
Join Date 05/2006
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Reply #4 September 7, 2006 12:00:19 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
starbases are fine the way they are

if you have problems defending them then just put a fleet of ships on it.


Agreed.

Couple of quick 'very rough' numbers
It takes 22+ constructors to fully build a starbases off/def
Thats around 22 x 200 MP = 4400 MP total ( about 200 MP for a constructor with lots of engines on it )
I can build a huge hulled ship for around 900 MP usually
A fleet of 5 Huges ( logistics 40 ) costs about 4500 MP

So the costs are really about equal - I do realize of course there are maintenance costs for ships but you also have the flexibilty of using them for other things as needed.


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Scorpiuscat
No118
Join Date 04/2006
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Reply #5 September 7, 2006 1:36:59 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
That is, of course, what I do anyway.

That doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice for starbases to be able to look after themselves a little bit better though.
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Hannibal777
Join Date 08/2006
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Reply #6 September 7, 2006 2:03:38 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Couple of quick 'very rough' numbers
It takes 22+ constructors to fully build a starbases off/def
Thats around 22 x 200 MP = 4400 MP total ( about 200 MP for a constructor with lots of engines on it )
I can build a huge hulled ship for around 900 MP usually
A fleet of 5 Huges ( logistics 40 ) costs about 4500 MP

So the costs are really about equal - I do realize of course there are maintenance costs for ships but you also have the flexibilty of using them for other things as needed.


But is a fully decked out starbase as tough as 5 huges?
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Kblore
Join Date 05/2006
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Reply #7 September 7, 2006 4:32:10 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
But is a fully decked out starbase as tough as 5 huges?


Depends on how the tech trees evolve in the game.
Actually I'm usually able to get a starbase that can defend itself for quite a while.
But eventually a good fleet will be able to take out a starbase.
So the only real option eventually is to place a fleet on the starbase.

I did the numbers just to show that it is relatively equal cost wise.
Of course the fleets can be upgraded with techs and the starbase modules don't upgrade.

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Moosetek13
Join Date 03/2006
+48
Reply #8 September 7, 2006 4:47:12 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
It takes 39 constructors to fully outfit a resource base, something like 42 for an influence base and 53 for military.
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Kblore
Join Date 05/2006
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Reply #9 September 7, 2006 5:06:14 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Just talking about the modules that add off/def for the starbase.
Got the 22 number from:
6 for each of the 3 Starbase Fortification techs
4 for the Battle Stations

There are some more modules that become available with weapon/defense techs -- should be 6 more modules or so.

Like i posted: just 'very rough' numbers
My attempt to show that the cost to defend with a fleet is roughly equal to the cost to fully equip a starbase with off/def modules.

Of course the issue is quite a bit more complex with several workable options except at certain tech levels a player has to defend with a fleet or suffer losing a starbase if it gets attacked.
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Scorpiuscat
darth silliness
Join Date 08/2006
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Reply #10 September 8, 2006 8:14:11 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I like playing my games slowly, building up over time, so i usually face hi tech opponents that can take out starbases that have full weaponry.

To combat this I just build vast numbers of cheap heavy fighters (small hull, tiny hull isn't big enough) with attack and defense values of one in each category - when you upgrade the assist modules to the max they end up with values of about 19 in each attack category (but only about 4 for defense, which doesn't matter in any case).

this is only slightly less than max tech enemy of the same size (and you don't need to match them, just kill them), only about 4 times cheaper in terms of maintenance (and build time), so you can build heaps of them. if you are able to get kill rates of 1 for 1, you can effectively take on oponents 4 times your size, or multiple opponents.

and overlapping military starbases make it even more effective, 2 effectively doubles their firepower, 3 triples etc. just take care not to build offensive modules (except the first battle station) so the ai targets the fighters first.
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Fuzzybunnies
Join Date 08/2006
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Reply #11 September 8, 2006 9:59:37 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
While I rarely put any weapons on my starbases (or heck, even use military starbases anymore) I think the biggest benefit of constructors vs huge hulls is that it takes far less time for 10 planets to build 1 constructor each @ 200 MP, than it would take 2 planets to build 1 huge hull each at 1000 MP.

Darth's idea seems like the best of both worlds though... I might have to try it next time!

Question to the military base users tho... if you have a starbase with units near a planet will they still attack the planet first and just bypass the starbase? or does the starbase have some sort of draw for targetting purposes?
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Azrune
Join Date 06/2006
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Reply #12 September 8, 2006 7:06:15 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I don't get what people complain about starbases not being tough, the defenses and weapons are only meant to hold off the occasional enemy ship or pirate that passes by, it's just insurance not a fortress (and no military starbases are not meant to be forts or troop barracks, only stat boosters) starbases are meant to be taken out quick.
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Scorpiuscat
darth silliness
Join Date 08/2006
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Reply #13 September 9, 2006 8:55:27 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Question to the military base users tho... if you have a starbase with units near a planet will they still attack the planet first and just bypass the starbase? or does the starbase have some sort of draw for targetting purposes?


so far as i've seen if the ai wants your planet, they will bypass the starbase. I know some people think the starbase should have some ability to draw enemies in or otherwise block them, but in my opinion this would unbalance the game.

as planets can only be defended by 10 ships, their defenses can be taken down relatively easily, so they are your weakpoint (doubly so as you obviously need them to support and build your military). this is good, as for strategy games to remain interesting, offense must outweigh defense, otherwise it will just degenerate into stalemate, which is boring.

instead use your fighters to intercept the enemy before they arrive. once their most powerful units are gone, send in your own fleet and transports to clean up.
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TOV
Join Date 05/2006
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Reply #14 September 9, 2006 9:58:41 AM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I think that the HP of starbases should increase as you research certain techs: specifically, some hull techs, starbase fortification techs, and starbase defense techs. HP would not increase with ALL of these techs, just a statigic few.
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