IztokBitenc

Join Date 03/2003

+34

Balancing masochistic AI bonuses

Hi!

I'm playing my second masochistic game with GalCiv2 version 1.11. I haven't finished the first one, and, despite it's only turn 108, I will likely also not this one. The reason is simple and is presented in next tree pictures.

When I got the advanced espionage on Arcenans, I checked their planets. Here's what I found:

You need to see that to belive. I was simply shocked. Now compare that with my EMPIRE WIDE statistics (and note I have 11 planets, average size 14.5) FULLY built with Advanced factories (about 25% of tiles) and Research centers (another 25% of tiles).

]

Remeber, it's turn 108, good two years into the game. I just researched and built on all planets Stock Markets, hence so big financial output. Now please how the h... can I compete with such an insane bonus, when a SINGLE planet has 3 times as much production than my WHOLE empire?!?! It's OK with me if they'd get 200% econ bonus, as is stated for those levels. But why the h... they got also 200% production and 200% research bonus? And (unknown) influence and diplomacy bonuses as well? On masocistic? What do they got on suicidal? 500% everything?

Yes, I am angry!!!

Stardock, in the game are 3 levels above crippling: masochistic, obscene and suicidal. Please adjust those levels appropriately, so the next stair above crippling is a 17 cm stair, not 170 cm wall, as it currently is.

Those current settings make game for me unattractive. With approximately even start I can easily win a game on crippling. So easily, that it isn't fun anymore. With a good start in my current game I'm not able to compete with AIs, that got everything at least double, and for free. Where's the skill involved? Where does come into play careful building of infrastructure, when it is of no use against those big bonuses? Where's fun, when I know I'll need to misuse everything I know about the game just to survive. Only to find after another two game years Drengin on the other side of the uni grown so big they'll be unstoppable, and I'll quit again.

The AI in the game has improved considerably. IMO it is due time the really high levels of the game start reflecting this. Especially when all what is to change are some numbers.

BR, Iztok

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...despite it's only turn 10...

Remeber, it's turn 108...

Which is it?

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It's probably a typo and it's 108. Sheesh

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Well, masochistic is meant to be - masochistic.

It's quite doable without evil magic, by the way.

What I'd like to suggest, on the other hand, is for Stardock (a) to state what bonuses the AI really gets at Masochistic and above, and (

to export these values (the non-intelligence settings) to a file in order to be editable for non-metaverse games.
Paradox did it that way for Hearts of Iron, and it's a very nice thing to simply change some values to adapt your playing experience. Just think of it as modding support for 1.2.

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I'd also like to point out that you have Advanced Factories and they have Industrial Sectors. thought the 200% bonus sure wont hurt them one bit

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Wow, that's some crazy figures iztok. i don't think i've ever seen anything like it, and i'm nosy about my 'neighbours' too. stardock take a note of this! Also all 4 capitals are on the same planet - imagine if it used planets properly - one producing 2000 + research points, one with a production of 2000, and one doing the same economically?? then it would make more sense.

BTW iztok - we already know the AI gets 200% bonus on everything at the masochistic level, its in the journals. Saying that though, the figures above defy belief. they don't add up, not with whats built on the planet.

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Great post as usual iztok. The difference between crippling and maso is massive like u said and needs ergent addressing in the next beta/patch. I have given up 2 maso games recently nearly to exactly the same turn as you have because it's just no fun trying to catch up against those odds.

Even though the AI's are still doing lots wrong at Maso level the production bonus and ability bonuses combined are just to much. Personally i would like to see a difficulty level with maybe 25% production bonuses and perhaps the same maso ability bonuses.

If Brad can get the planetary managent working as it should then a 25% bonus production should be enough to give players a challenge and not a full gone conclusion of massacre.

The only way to beat maso or higher imo at the moment is to play freaky map types. The new combat system in 1.2 will make it even harder.

Lenius.

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I started a thread about the difficulty levels a few days back. Right now the game is unplayable for me because Crippling is boringly easy and masochistic (without tech trading) is far too hard.

They need some middle ground between genius and incredible AI IMO. I think the 100% economy bonus is plenty (perhaps even too much) for masochistic. Bonus production could be saved for the higher levels.

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Not sure if this will help, right now I'm playing and (I think) winning on crippling, but I'm not yet bored of that and haven't tried masochistic, so I don't know from personal experience if this will work. But maybe you could try setting some of the AIs to genius and some to incredible - as long as the incredibles don't just expand even more at the expense of the weaker ones, it might make for something of an in-between difficulty level.

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Hi!

Well, masochistic is meant to be - masochistic.
It's quite doable without evil magic, by the way.

I can think of no way how the game on masichistic can be "quite doable". If it is generated with fair planet distribution (not me in one half of the uni, rest of AIs in another one), is it just hard work, without much chances of success.

Like random50 says:

Crippling is boringly easy and masochistic (without tech trading) is far too hard.

The keywords are IMO "without tech trading". One can't use his high diplomacy to get on pair with AI tech-wise. High diplo only serves survivability (a "+" in relations), and that's all. In both maso games I found myself in first two years researching almost exclusively better installations. And only in third year I started thinking of attacking someone. However that someone had at that time medium hulls with attack 3-4-5 weapons on them, twice as big fleets AND twice as much miniaturization I had. Go fight under such conditions.

But it is even worse. At the start of the third year evil civs usualy get enough tech to start attacking their weak neighbours. So when I'm ready to got to war with those weak civs, there's no one remaining, just big bullies.

I want to play the game, I want it to be challenging, I want to use all my skill to beat other players. I don't want to invest two evening of my free time on a game I'll have to abandon because I can't beat 25 tech points from their Xeno Labs.

BR, Iztok

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I assure you that even Suicidal is doable (a) without tech trading and (

without Ctrl-N. I rarely use Ctrl-N myself, one time at most in all my games IIRC, usually I even take the first map that comes, and blind exploration is a given for me anyway. Some of the games that I submitted were played with tech trading, some without.
As long as you have some friends and keep most of the AIs off your back, being behind in technology doesn't really matter. And once the tech tree is completed, all technological gaps are gone anyway.

I don't say it is easy. I don't say it is pretty. But it is doable.
May I suggest that you swallow your anger and support the idea of customizable difficulty levels instead? It would be a better solution for all players (and modders), and I for one wouldn't want to weaken the difficulty levels.

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Hi!

As long as you have some friends and keep most of the AIs off your back, being behind in technology doesn't really matter.

True. But if you want to expand, you hit the tech wall. I forget to mention I played both games in huge uni with common everything, and the slowest tech. That makes quite a difference - the tech costs modifier is from gigantic uni. IMO this was the slowest tech that could be made in a game. A really masiochistic one.

May I suggest that you swallow your anger...

It's gone now. Obviously the advice "If you're angry, write a letter" still holds.

...and support the idea of customizable difficulty levels instead?

I mostly play metaverse games. IMO most players play "vanila" games, what meta games in fact are. Those are at least closely comparable, so we can share experience. If you wish, I too can support your idea. But my main desire is Stardock changes those bloody insane bonuses that... (Iztok relax ... breathe slowly ... count to 10 ...

)

BR, Iztok

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I don't doubt that suicidal is doable. I just know that *I* can't do it.

I don't think suicidal needs to be scaled down anyway...but masochistic does. Or there needs to be a level or two inserted between crippling and masochistic.

Tried the mixed incredible/genius AI approach. The Incredibles kicked everyone elses butt and if anything it made things even worse (power was now concentrated in fewer enemies).

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Any stardockian read this thread? Would love to know what they think about the current difficulty levels and what the plan is to improve on them.

The way e-stab says you can win the game at maso or above just isn't fun, and the fact is by the time the AI has researched the whole tech tree it should have won the game anyway.

Lenius.

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Customizable difficulty levels sounds great. Have sliders for economic, production and research bonuses (or penalties) and an ability to choose how smart the ais are.

Don't see why this should be a problem for metaverse either...there's already a difficulty based component in calculating the score. Of course, almost certainly the balance won't be perfect and some people will manipulate things to get the highest possible score for the least extra effort, but they do that anyway!

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