Regarding Used Copies of GalCiv II » Forum Post by Yarlen

(Please Note: the below reflects GG's personal opinion and he is in a particularly foul mood today so he apologizes up front if he offends anyone)

Nowhere have we said that customers could not make backup copies of GalCiv II...

And nowhere did anyone say it was not possible for GC2. This was used as an example of (IMO) unsavory business practices that are becoming more common by software companies. I will assume you misunderstood my post…

In fact, we are allowing legal purchasers of the game to re-download the latest version of GalCiv II forever. I fail to see how this is screwing people over…

Cool. But, since I am the proud owner of physical data discs with your company's logo on them (that I purchased new at the local game store) this "support" is of practically no value to me. All I want and need are the patch files. And I would frankly vastly prefer them as small exe/zip files without the entire "Stardock Front-end" being required on my system just for a game patch file if you really want to open up "that can of worms"...I thought not.

Any other company would leave people who fall into this category "twisting in the wind" with no support at all.

Really? And what other retail, game software companies are doing this? I am not saying it is 'not' done (I know of only 1-2), but it is not nearly enough to begin a statement boldly: "Any other company..." when most game companies don't do anything of the sort.

People have to remember that providing support and perpetual access to re-download the game costs money. It's not crazy to ask those people from whom Stardock is not receiving one penny to pick up some of that burden if they want the same support as a first-hand consumer is getting.

But it is even more "crazy" to think anyone who is savvy enough to play your games is not smart enough to realize it would cost a ton LESS to simply post a the patch files on an ftp server as a self extracting exe or zip like everyone else does.

Look, I think everyone realized why it was done (thwart piracy and enhance profits, both valid reasons btw). I feel for you, really (I work in the IT industry), just ease up on the strawman arguments and please don't treat me as if I am stupid.

GG

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Sorry, but I think I have posted too much on this issue already.

Please do not expect a responce from me on this tread again.

But, I am able to "rate" myself as a Troll! That cheered me up! LOL!

GG

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I think having a small program installed on my system that automatically checks for updates and even gives me access to beta versions of the patch is no where near as bad as it sounds, at least to me. Yes, originally I was a bit confused where to get the patches, but for a long time now I'm glad updating is an easy thing.

Another thing though, is that anytime you buy a used game, either over eBay, EB Games, or any other retail software outlet, you should know that you are taking your chances especially if it relies on any sort of online activation. Buyer beware. Also, the case arises that the key has already been registered, you have full rights to return the game, or demand a refund from the seller.

It was mentioned earlier that some retail chains accept used software, but I know that EB Games / Gamestop stopped taking used PC games once EB was bought out by them, which is annoying as hell, but they pretty much did so because of piracy related issues. People would buy a brand new game, take it home to install it, then get a No-CD crack and return it next day as used for a good bit of store credit. And you're free to update it as long as you backup the original files.

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I bought Galciv 2 from Game Ltd and couldnt register it. After waiting a few days for Stardock to reply I decided to take the game back and get another copy, which registered fine. I was lucky that Game accepted my argument. In fact they were probably in the wrong for selling a presold game that had obviously been returned. Others havent been that lucky and are stuck with a pretty useless game.

Im sure that if this online activation (for that is what Stardock are doing theyre just calling it something else) was queried in the courts it would be considered illegal.

I will definitely think twice about buying another Stardock product until they reconsider their protection method.

Nats

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If you buy a used game . . you get the 1.0 game on that CD. Youcan even upgrade to 1.1. You got what you paid for.

Anything you want beyond that . . . you have to buy. Seems pretty fair to me.

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I also seem to remember when EA tried to make you register your key in order to get the updates, but I don't think that lasted long.

And Nats, do you know how much other software requires some sort of online activation, not including games? If it wouldn't hold up in courts, I doubt there would be a lot of companies using that method.

If you buy a used copy of Battlefield 2, I don't think you can even register an online account with the same key if someone else did that. You would have to have the account it was registered under as well.

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Alstein

Join Date 07/2004

+55

Here's the rub: how does the purchaser of the used software know that they can't patch up? I've never heard of this before. Yes, Stardock loses money, and yes, this would hold up in court. That being said, the one who unknowingly purchases such will get a nasty surprise. I understand both side's position in this though. I understand why Stardock is being anal about this- since it does cost them money.

This is a problem that will go away in time though. It will also only apply to those who bought in-box copies- I have a feeling that digital DL will become a greater part of sales in the future.

So I guess in future, putting a warning on the box would be a good idea.

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If you buy a used copy of Battlefield 2, I don't think you can even register an online account with the same key if someone else did that. You would have to have the account it was registered under as well.

There's an easy way around that though. EA will replace the game (with a new serial) on reciept of the complete original package (manual & disks) and a small fee to cover postage.

I can't really see where Stardock would lose out with a similar thing here. In fact, you could make money on it - have them send in their copy, overcharge them on the postage, deactivate the serial number and send out the same package to the next guy who asks for a replacement

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BTW, the link from the OP explains that if you have a second hand GC II, you will be able to purchase a valid serial Id from Stardock at a reduced price.

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There is of course a way to circumvent the license thanks to a part of bankruptcy code which allows you to transfer the license to your creditor if you declare bankruptcy. But that's a bit extreme to transfer a game license.

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One of the main reasons for selling a used game is for environmental reasons. CDs are great pollutants and cannot be recycled. Another reason to sell is if you got the game without first playing it (possibly as a gift), played it, didn't like it (some people just hate TBS) and you want to pass it to someone else, some say they should be able to do it. This is different then pirating in that you don't sell the game to many people or distribute copies, you sell your original copy and discard your key. This is debateable and I can't make up my mind if it is right or not, but I lean towards thinking it is ok. On the other hand, the problem with people who don't have keys is that the person who "sold" them the game kept the key, thus swindling them. And it's not startdock's fault that a person was swindeled. If you buy a stolen car you cannot demand the company provide you with a free replacement. Also stardock allows you to download the game if you have the serial and the CD is not needed to play the game (I had to download many games because a disk stopped working from scratching). So this is vastly different them most companies and moves it more to the realm of intellectual property. Most companies sell you both intellectual property AND physical property. They sell you a non transferrable license to play their game, yet at the same time sell you a non replaceable and easily damaged and extemely cheap peice of media that if lost you have to buy the game again. Since they really sell you a serial number and the CD is just a serive they give to avoid downloading the game reselling it is much less justifiable. (but I am still not certain about it being wrong in the case of one person permanently transferring their copy AND serial to another person for money; I lean towards approving of it) This also doesn't take care of the fact that without being able to "resell" the CD and manual more pollution is created.

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Hi,

This is sort of related to the former topics. Hypothetically speaking, if I purhased GCivII from the store and did not have an internet connection to register it online, would i be able to get, say, the 1.2 update from somewhere else and be able to update it?

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This is sort of related to the former topics. Hypothetically speaking, if I purhased GCivII from the store and did not have an internet connection to register it online, would i be able to get, say, the 1.2 update from somewhere else and be able to update it

As I recall, if you register your serial with StarDock (Can be done from any net-enabled PC), you should be able to download the patches elsewhere and move them home. There are small issues with the activation, but there are instructions on the forums about how to manually request an activation file.

To quote the explanation I've seen:
Activating on a non-connected PC
To activate the game on a computer that is not connected, follow these steps:

1) Start the game; you will get a prompt for your serial and email. Provide them and continue.
2) It will fail to activate (of course) and ask if you'd like to activate by email. Click Yes.
3) Copy the subject line and big block of letters into a text file, or into your email program, and save it off to portable media (CDR, USB drive, floppy, etc).
4) Take it to a web-connected PC and send an email to activate@stardock.com with that subject line and content.
5) You should receive a reply with a file and some instructions; take the file back to the non-connected PC and you should be set to go.

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How is it going to work with the Expansion? If I purchase the Expansion, will I need a Serial Number from the original game or will the Serial Number from the Expansion be enough?

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How is it going to work with the Expansion?

it will be simpler: the expansion is electronic download only.

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I bought a used copy of this game and for the time I played it I think it is correct.

I paid 30 canadian dollars instead of 40 us dollars for a collector edition copy.

the seller was an honest person, on ebay, and he sent me his information for the login so I was able to change them and now he cant acess the game I can update it as I want.

I think thoses kinds of measures are idiots for one reason.

when someone is tired of a game, it is not illegal to sell it to someone else who will enjoy this game.

So penalizing people who are buying used stuff is not really in favor of the environnement nor the players.

That's ridiculous to penalize people who want to re-utilize something and giving the game a second life instead of letting the game sleeping a box.

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+456

Nobody is being penalized. It's just a simple matter that SD has decided they will not mess with removing serials from one person's account and moving them to another, which could be abused by malicious users to steal the game from others.

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Hey I have many game with serial number and registered account.

If I sell them, I wont have acess to the game again.

so I dont see the point for this game.

If you as a company you prefer to sell the game available for download,

it is your problem and your's only,

you dont have the right to force people to buy a new one to play it legally.

I think that's the only game I know with this problem.

You can still download day of defeat source or even half-life without having this problem, if you sell it, there no way the player cannot acess the game or you to be able to acess it again.

So this is not an excuse about the download fact.

Sorry for my bad english but I'm actually on beer and this is not my native langage.

My copy is used by the person who sold me was an honest seller giving me all the information.

I never heard about thoses rules before I saw this topic, and now I see it,

I will never buy stardock product again and I will discourage all people to buy it, because such game develloper are giving support to crappy corporation that want to ruin gameplay and make people always paying more and more for games.

They could go by their own and do like most of devellopers team who refuse such corporations domination.

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I fully endorse Stardock to utilize whatever means they deem necessary to prevent piracy - regardless of whether this affects the aftermarket or not. It is not as if Stardock gets a single dollar from an aftermarket sale anyways. Move along troll.
:EDIT: The popular game World of Warcraft has a similar policy about use games. It is against their own TOS and do not support such acts. With 6 million subscribers I can't say it has been a failure. Stardock only does this as a means of piracy prevention. Every company does this their own way. Leave them alone.

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This is why I will never buy World of Wacraft.

By the way this is really different here, because you have to pay each month for the game.

And I know if you buy a used copy you only need the serial number to reset the account. So it's not a big problem. My friend bought that game used and with that serial number he got no problem at all.

There is no piracy in there.

Anyway I'm sure my opinion wont affect anything so I dont even know why I'm complaining.

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If i would have bought this game second hand and did not received support i would use my "Rechtschutzversicherung" (Rights assurance) in germany. Its also dealing with the "update" question.

Following Law applies:
Erschöpfung bei Software; OLG Frankfurt; Urteil vom 3.11.1998; ger. Az.: - 11 U 20/98

Oberlandes Gericht Frankfurt Urteil 1998

Btw in this Case it was Adobe with the Product Pagemaker that was questioned.
Similar judgements were also released at the introduction of Microsoft Windows 2000 and the involved Serial-Keys.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2394

Some of the responses here explain why the PC games market is in decline.

That is, some people will be unsatisfied no matter what policy is created.

Galactic Civilizations II is a PC game that has no CD copy protection whatsoever.

We release free updates that I have a great deal of new content and new features.

But we have to have some way to know that the person downloading the update has the actual game. I don't see any other way around that. If we don't require the original physical CD in the drive, then there's no real verification that the person using updates even has the game.

So the policy is that a user types in a serial # and an email address. In exchange, users can then download the entire latest/greatest version forever afterwards even if they lose their serial #.

Now, if someone returns the game to the store after having created such an account, that serial # is tied to the email address. A person who buys the used game still can play the game. The physical good they purchase works out of the box. We are not required to provide any updates to the game, the game out of the box works fine. The extra updates are essentially a free service we provide to reward customer for supporting us.

Those users who purchased a used game (typically off of eBay or whereever) got it at a much reduced rate, which is fine. But if their account is tied up, then they just need to contact us and we'll provide them with a new serial # for a much reduced cost.

When someone buys Galactic Civilizations II they're really getting two things: (1) The game itself and (2) Lifetime access to Stardock.net which allows them to get new updates and full-redownloads of it. Item #2 involves having a serial # tied to an individual account.

Will such a system satisfy 100% of people? No. But given the alternatives (either CD copy protection or no free updates), I think this is by far the best option for the customer. As a gamer, I don't want to mess with CDs being in the drive and I want my games to keep getting updates after release. I also understand that if I don't have to keep a CD in the drive that there has to be some system in place to assure that I'm actually a customer before I download megabytes of free, non-required updates to the game.

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I understand your points.
The best cooperation out there with the "customer" is to have such a persuading product like you guys created.
It may have flaws here and there but at the end this is the reason you received so many sales there.

I could have also buyed it on ebay or "taken" the game from somewhere else, but already after i read the gamespot review, key points about your CD protection statements i knew that is a game that deserves full support and the add on is already preordered.

ps: feel free to take out my previous post, actually i do not want to bash what i like, or give anyone what could result in bad ideas.

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Right on Frogboy.

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I don't see how Stardock's license restriction is anything beyond preventing a resale market, burying this restriction in the EULA, and selling it as if you can resell it. (What, you have access to the EULA as you buy the box... and open it? No!)

I can understand the attractiveness of advertising it as anti-piracy. However, it appears meaningless when analyzed. People who can update simply provide the patch data they download to others.

As such, how can Stardock's technique be justified?

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