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satthukaraoke
satthukaraoke
Join Date 02/2006
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Are certain AI's function from 1.X disable in 1.1 Beta2?

regarding tech trade, and minor race

April 4, 2006 1:18:56 PM from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
With some of the changes 1.1 made I finally pushed my game to painful level. But something I notice though:


In 1.X the AI is really picky about tech trading. I hardly convinced anyone to trade weapon tech even the basis stuff like Beam Weapon Theory or Chalf even when the trade is obvious to their advantage like I'm offering Habitat for Ship defense theory. And that was on touch level.



Right now with 1.1 I'm playing on Painful (time to go nut babies!!) and somehow the AIs are trading tech like hot cake again. I'm nowhere popular (being a neutral), nowhere powerful (rate 6th), nowhere rich (rate 5th), the only thing I'm good at is influence (2nd). I just convince the Drengin to give me their HARPOON in exchange for my ... ahem ... Basic Minurization.



I haven't go back to test it with the Touch difficulties yet but anyone notice this issue, I prefer the way it is in 1.X, I thought it was a great idea limiting weapon trade. Or is this disable to make way for the Disable Tech Trade? I like to have tech trade on because it add a new dimension to the game, but I like it to be limited the way it is, it puts more punch on the Alliance if you ask me. Now in the channel log for 1.1 it said about no more sweetheart deal .... well, HARPOON for Basic Minuziration, I won't call that sweatheart deal, I call that UBER SWEET deal.



- This I don't know if it's a 1.1 or a it's supposed to be this way on Painful, never played Painful with 1.0X. But now it doesn't seem that the Minor Race will kick in anymore.

I always play on Huge Galaxy with 9 races (hey, the more the merrier) and yes, with Minor Race on (!duh) . Habitable Planet, Planet, and Star set to Common. And I rarely see a minor race. Usually with Normal 1.0X I get the full cast of 9 minor race very early in the game. Now with painful 1.1 Beta 2 I will be lucky if I see 1 one of them. In fact on my last game after like some hundreds turns only 1 Minor race appears, in other game ... well, zero.

I remember hearing the Minor Races are rebalance so they won't screw up the major race, but they're next to none existence in my game now. I miss those little buggers


So what are these change? Are they bugs, or are they supposed to be new changes ?
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satthukaraoke
satthukaraoke
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #1 April 4, 2006 3:41:13 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
By the way, can someone with a good eyes tell me where is this post of my can be located? (Weird question, I know). But right now the only way for me to find it is to use the "My Post" function. It says it lists on the Galciv II section but nothing is there. The latest non-sticky post I see in there is way later then the time this thread was created.

Also, I have created a few topic here and there but never see one of them on the recent post box
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satthukaraoke
Kalin
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #2 April 4, 2006 5:49:35 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Well first of all, I saw this on "GalCiv II" on page 2, so yeah, it got burried right after you posted probably. I've had a couple of my post just dissapeared on me like that too. The server just can't handle the load, so there are these massive lag to updates. Anyways, about what you noticed...

The thing about military tech trading is that it was never a part of the AI, but rather it was part of the interface. That is, it was built in as a check to stop the player from abusing tech trade too much. Since the AI doesn't know who the player is, it will be perfectly happy to trade away everything fairly, so it was necessary to put in this "artificial" barrier to stop this from turning messy. Anotherwords, none of it's functions are being disabled, what is happening is that the artificial barrier is being gradually lifted, because of the recent improvements to the AI's trading algorithm.

As I've mentioned elsewhere though, this improvement is not perfect. In fact, because the AI values certain "core" technologies a lot more than others, it is bound to be exploitable. Logistics and Miniturization happens to be two of those fields. Anotherwords, to the AI, it's pretty much a sweet deal for them to be getting miniturization or logistics. Comparing a +15 miniturization and a +1 per missile might seem to you as a very good deal, but for him, being able to fit on another weapon or defense per ship is also great. Another thing, I believe he's only willing to offer lower level weapons to you (according to the change logs anyways), so he probably has photonic torpedoes? If not, perhaps it should be looked over again. I believe they are trying to improve the AI's trading algorithm to a point that they won't need that artificial barrier entirely, because right now it is really the only difference bettween a player and an AI (but obviously it's not quite there yet).

As for minor races... I honestly haven't noticed. Although I do remember that the minor races tend to die really fast in 1.0x, so there was probably a lot of them... maybe 4-5 for a large galaxy at start.
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satthukaraoke
satthukaraoke
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #3 April 4, 2006 6:03:59 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
I think it's a little different then that. I used Harpoon because it's the most dangerous one they give me. If basic stuff is accounted for then how about this: I traded in Beam Weapon Theory, Starbase defensive theory, armor theory for a single tech of mine, didn't remember which but a pretty low tech, I think chalf. So I don't think Theory level is the key.


As I said, in 1.0X I almost beg the AI to trade me the Starbase Defensive Theory and they still give me the message of " we don't trust you" even when I'm offering something like Plasma II on my part. And I don't think it's random either, since I played a fair share of 1.0X game and I never able to trade in Weapon (both offensive and defensive tech) until my relationship is "close", and I thought that was great.


And nope, Harpoon is the best thing he has.


But in 1.1 Beta 2 the tech trade is pretty much the same as the retail, yummie hot cake
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satthukaraoke
Marcathonas
Join Date 01/2006
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Reply #4 April 4, 2006 6:47:45 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
With tech trading, the AI will be unwilling to trade to someone with low influence or a good military (they want powerful friends, but not dangerous friends)
So what you described is the AI's best friend. And of course, as Kalin said, logistics and miniturisation are great anyway. I'm happy to fund my worst enemy with my state of the art weaponary, just to be on a level playing field ship pr fleet wise. Of course now, after my first metaverse game, I'm a little more picky about who I give what to. It's nasty to see your own old model ships destroy your state of the art design
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satthukaraoke
satthukaraoke
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Reply #5 April 4, 2006 6:59:22 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Ok, I'll try again tonight when I play again to see if it's different with low influence. It's just because in that game I'm in a very close border with the Torian and they have a very high Ifluence, so I have to keep up with them. But yeah, technically me the Torian combined hold nearly half the vote in the UP.


I'll try again, hopefully next time I'll border with someone less influencial
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satthukaraoke
Kalin
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Reply #6 April 4, 2006 7:19:44 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Yeah, what I believe you are seeing is the result of the AI valueing military technologies all wrong in general, I've seen debug messages of the AI trading crazy military tech deals from older versions and have even pointed it out to Brad. I'm pretty sure that hasn't been fixed (at least nothing in the change logs suggests it), so it makes sense that now that the barrier is being lifted, you are getting away with a lot of things.

The way technology value it is done now is... well frankly, is just plain odd. The tech tree definitely as a "value" for each technology, but Brad have also said that each AI values technology differently. Now, perhaps it's me and it is working somewhat like what I describe, but the value just seems all wierd and I can't make heads or tails of it. For example, from the tech tree:

Missile Weapon Theory = AI Value: 10 (Cost: 100)
Stinger = AI Value: 10 (Cost: 150)
Stinger II = AI Value: 10 (Cost: 300)
Stinger III = AI Value: 8 (Cost: 400)
Stinger IV = AI Value: 8 (Cost: 800)
Harpoon = AI Value: 8 (Cost: 1200)
Harpoon II = AI Value: 8 (Cost: 800)
Harpoon III = AI Value: 8 (Cost: 900)
...
... and everything up to and including Black-hole Erruptors also has an AI Value of 8.

Am I the only one that thinks this is a little wierd? The AI Value doesn't seem like a "value indicator" for me, and the cost is just well... off (it's even worse if you see the entire missile tree). If nothing else, Black-hole Erruptors need some serious value. Now, as if that wasn't bad enough:

Chaff = AI Value: 15!!! (Cost: 60)
Smart Chaff = AI Value: 4 (Cost: 80)
ECM = AI Value: 4 (Cost: 200)
ECM II = AI Value: 4 (Cost: 350)
ECM II = AI Value: 3 (Cost: 400)
...
... and everything up to and including Aereon Missile Defense is also valued by the AI at 3.

So the only conclusion that I can make is that this is the value used to determine how much the AI should research a particular technology, and has nothing with how much it "values" it (it makes sense too, all the xeno ethics techs are 3, and diplomacy techs are 1 - as hard as that is to believe). Instead, all of the "value" is hidden in the AI code somewhere and probably has to do with the "cost" of technologies, although I can't make any sense from the cost alone either (In fact, you should be able to buy Harpoon II for 2/3 the cost of Harpoon, skipping it all together). To me though, this makes no sense because these two values needs to be linked or at least apparent... if for nothing else, than:

1) what happens when a modder try to add a new tech in, how in the world will they make the AI appreciate it? It would probably just give it away at the first moment's notice because it would think of it as worthless.

2) if there is some value indicator we could change, there would be a lot less hassle about the AI irresponsible tech trading problems. The only value that MIGHT do this is the cost, but jacking up weapon cost several folds to get the AI to appreciate it really doesn't work out well for the militaristic AIs, and it still doesn't help how they trade it away.

3) people could just look at the system and figure out if something was wrong. Hiding it under code just makes people (like me) stab at darkness trying to understand the mechanics behind it.


Personally I really think they need to have some new mechanic that deals with technological value alone. For example, it should scale somewhat for usefulness, with the first level tech always more useful than the later (IE: Harpoon is more useful than Harpoon II). However, this would only apply if you have all the previous technologies. Basically have a scaling value for each branch of the technology tree... kind of like this (the number doesn't mean a thing, it's only to demonstrate a system):

Missile Weapon Theory = 1700
Stinger = 2000 (effective value: 300)
Stinger II = 2200 (effective value: 200)
Stinger III = 2400 (effective value: 200)
Stinger IV = 2600 (effective value: 200)
Harpoon = 3000 (effective value: 400)
Harpoon II = 3300 (effective value: 300)
Harpoon III = 3600 (effective value: 300)

In this case, let's say you trade for Stinger, but didn't have Missile Weapon Theory, then you have to give up 2000 points in return for it assuming of course that there is no technology above Missile Theory (which there is, Space Weapons would be 1500 if it existed in the example). However, when you go to buy Stinger II, since you already have Stinger, you only need to pay 200 for it (2200-2000). Then, if you go to buy Stinger IV, and skip Stinger III, you have to pay 400 points for it (2600-2200 from Stinger II). And if you trade for Harpoon, and have already have Stinger IV, Harpoon would only be worth 400 (3000-2600). Anotherwords, there should be a point system that values different technologies and how much they improve over the last. This could be a part of techtree.xml even, and then have the individual AI modify it by 10-20% based upon their individual behaviors call it {AIUsefullness} or something. In a scaling system like this, it would pretty much solve the missile weapon theory for Laser III problem... simply because the comparative value of those two who differ greatly.

Is it possible that this is being done internally? Perhaps, I just don't know, but it sure as heck doesn't look that way from the various odd things I've seen the AI do with trading. Besides, a transparent system like this would not only help out the modding community a ton, but will also be really easy to understand why it is making some wierd quirky trades. Then you could just say... don't like it? just mod it!

Hopefully someone will come across this and pass the idea to brad and co.


PS: I forgot to mention it in my last reply, but posting in "GalCiv II" is a sure fire way to get your topic lost under the sheer amounts of posts. It might be a good idea to move your topic to the appropriate sub forums (perhaps bug reports), just edit the first post and select the forum. It will show up on both after some time... hopefully.
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satthukaraoke
syneris
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #7 April 4, 2006 9:19:14 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
So the only conclusion that I can make is that this is the value used to determine how much the AI should research a particular technology, and has nothing with how much it "values" it


I believe this is true. I think it's a bit more complicated than just this value is higher so i'll research it. If I remember correctly from some of the posts I've read, The AI compares the value with the cost of the tech to help deteremine what to research. The tech's category is very important to the AI's decision on what to research. Brad said this (not an exact quote) in one of the v1.1 beta journals. I was very relieved that he said it, because I had found no use for the category tag.
I believe the tradeable value is determined by the tech's cost, it's category, and any coded preferences for each race (like drengin probably value military related techs). Ofcourse, your relative diplomacy ability factors into this somehow.
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satthukaraoke
satthukaraoke
Join Date 02/2006
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Reply #8 April 4, 2006 10:05:22 PM
from GalCiv II ForumsGalCiv II Forums
Nope, I can now firmly confirm that the trade limiter that was in 1.0X is no longer there.

I started up new games, on both Normal and Painful difficulties, there is no difference. After letting the AI research their stuff, here is my test result along with Comparision:


1.0X

- I offered Laser IV for Starship defense - the AIs say they don't trust me yet.
- I offerd Advance Minizuration, Xeno Business, Xeno Farming, Xeno Entertainment for Durathium - the AIs say they don't trust me yet.
- I offered Advance Logistic, Advance Hull building, Expert life support for Miniball II - The AIs say they don't trust me yet.


1.1B2

- I traded in Universal translator for Starship defense and Spaceship defense - Accept
- I traded in Ion Drive and Basic life support for Miniball, Xeno Business, Xeno Industry, Armor theory.
- I traded in Laser V for Stinger IV, ECM, Xeno Entertainment, Enchanted Miniruzation


My influence level is relative minimum, I traded with different Race vary from Major to minor, from Good to Evil, from PowerFul to Weak. No difference. What is disturbing is that the Difficult levels make no different. In 1.0X when it comes to weapon tech, it's as simple as if we're not friend then no deal


So my conclusion is, the Limiter is not there any more. There is absolutely no involment whether it's low or high tech or whatever it Miniruzation or planet tech. The term "I don't trust you" is no longer there, period. Thing is exactly the way it was before 1.0X where tech trade is a free zone without any restriction.



I wonder if Brad disabled this code module to test out his calculation and forget to enable it again, because right now it's absolutely not there, neither there is any trace of an calculating.


I'll go ahead and report this to the bug section, if you guys feel like it, test it out
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