1.  To clear a path, you need a comparable fleet.  That's a lot of bcs.  

2.  BCs and money better spent on constructors.  Why stockpile transports or declare war when you can immediately influence flip with starbases and Mind Control Center? 

3.  MCC + Influence Starbase = 100% guaranteed capture.  WITHOUT declaring war.  Also, you need to be Korath to get spore ships if you don't like custom races.  On the other hand, almost EVERYONE can build influence starbases with all of the influence modules.  

With MCC, the moment you hit the magical value of "4" on the Influence Point screen for an AI colony, it will flip automatically on the next turn.  

This is INSANELY powerful.  Two franchise-chain-maxed out influence starbases can flip a border AI world.  

12-18 Constructors can conquer 2-3 worlds WITHOUT having to declare war.  Think about that.  Instead of having to waste time stockpiling transports, you could be steadily conquering your way across the galaxy WITHOUT even having to declare war.  

And what's so lovely about this is that it doesn't even MATTER what military tech the AI has.  You're just bypassing it through influence.  You don't need planetary invasion or anything.

And you can steadily do this to the strongest AI out there, as long as you can keep him occupied with wars elsewhere.  

 

Key techs: Diplomacy techs, Xeno Ethics (evil), Concepts of Malice, the Influence Chain, and good engine techs (so the constructors can get there faster).  

Key building: Mind Control Center.

Once you have this, and you can keep the AI occupied with bribes, you win easily through cultural conquest.  Just build constructors in the mid-game and ONLY constructors.  

Comparable fleet? Tech-wise maybe, but not size-wise. In fact, if you do it right, you may actually be able to avoid most of the enemy fleets, and only have to deal with the ships in orbit of the target planet. You need a good sensor-range (Eye of the Universe helps a lot) for this, and occasionally a ship as bait for the enemy fleets. With this tactic, I have won against enemies who had 30 to 40 times as many ships as I had.


Unlike troop transports, constructors have a 5bc maintenance cost. So, until you use those constructors they will cost you money each turn. Same goes for your influencer starbases. However, the starbases not only have a 5bc maintenance cost, but also an ever increasing buildcost. The size of the buildcost depends on how many starbases you have active at any one time (resource and ascension starbases don't count), the map size, and your Logistics ability. So, unless you have only a small number of starbases active, you pay for them, each time you build one. However, such a small amount of starbases will invariably slow down your conquest.

Troop transports, on the other hand, costs you almost nothing in comparison. You have to pay for the construction (same as the constructors), and your income from those worlds is reduced for a while, until the population has grown back, but that's it. Sure, there is also the cost of the invasion tactics, but you are already going Evil (because of the MCC), so the No Mercy Invasion Center is a no-brainer.


Evil + influence threat + no army = increased likelihood of getting war declared upon. Unlike most of us, you need to bribe the other races, because you are unable to defend yourself, should they attack.


True in my case, but not everybody has an aversion to playing custom races. Also, have you played against the Korath yet?


Not everybody, and especially not with tech trading disabled.

For example, the Drengin, Korath, Thalan, and Yor are extremely limited. The Drengin, Korath, and Yor only have access to the first three diplomacy-related culture modules, while the Thalan have access to all diplomacy related culture modules. None of them, however, have access to the Xeno Business techs.

Granted, those races got bonuses to offset this deficiency, but the effect of those are extremely limited:
1. The Drengin and Korath have two techs that grant a combined bonus of 25% to their Influence ability, but that bonus is already needed to offset the influence-penalty from their Slave Pits. They've also got the Propaganda Machine GA, which increases the effect of influencer starbases by 50%. However, the base effect of their influencer starbases is only 22% (from the three diplo culture modules). So it isn't helping much, if they don't get access to more culture modules.
2. The Korath additionally get access to the Dark Influence improvement, which increases planetary influence by 200%. However, that is not going to help to flip anyone, if the enemy planets are far away from yours.
3. The Thalan have two techs that grant a combined bonus of 40% (three techs for 50% if you are Good). However, that just offsets the loss of the Influence bonuses from the Xeno Business techs (35%). To offset the loss of the franchise culture modules, the Thalan have access to two unique ones: Utopian Society (+50%) and Xeno Influence Module (+100%). The Xeno Influence Module, however, is Good-only and bugged in the vanilla game. It requires the Insurrection Coordinator, which the Thalan don't have. So, unless you've somehow got access to the Xeno Business techs up to Cultural Insurrection, you won't be able to use it. Lastly, if you go Evil with the Thalan, you'll get the Brain Washing Center improvement, which increases planetary influence by 50% (and economy by 20%), but that has the same problem as the Dark Influence improvement from the Korath.
4. The Yor are, probably, the worst off among those four races. They only got one tech that increases their Influence ability by 10%. That's it.

I'd really like to know, if you would win using your strategy, playing one of those four races. In fact, I'm wondering how many games you've won with this strategy, playing a race without Super Breeder and/or the Torian tech tree on a difficulty of at least Tough.

Argh.  I keep on hitting the "reply button" instead of the "edit button."  

I agree!

Also, some traits have what is essentially an "expiration date."

For example, Super Adapter gets a head start on colonizing some world types that others cannot, but all races will eventually get that same ability through research.  

Analogously, the Super Breeder can be approached by being the first one to research Aphrodisiac, etc.

Nonetheless, the Super Adapter can end up with more population than a Super Breeder simply by having more worlds and by spreading around the population can keep morale 100% longer allowing faster population growth.  The key is to maximize the use that head start.  Thus, a Super Adapter might max the colony rush, building starports fringe planets to colonize out the rest of systems and also grab and mine anomalies.  Having a higher chance to colonize a planet essentially next to a green anomaly is no small advantage.  Even a yellow anomaly may allow better tax rates throughout the Empire.  Similarly, an extra red one so gained will effectively offset any Warrior trait later (+39% offense and defense).

Don't know where you're getting your numbers from, but each transport costs 400-500 bcs.  You need about 3000 (2500 sometimes) troops to reliably capture colonies.  This means:

Cargo Hull (55 bcs)

3 Advanced Troop Modules (210 BCs)

1 Warp Engine (140 BCs) 

That adds up to 405 BCs.  And this is bare bones.  If you want anything else, it adds to it, hence the estimate of 400-500 bcs.  Furthermore, even with 3000 troops, there's a 10-20% chance you won't capture the colony due to a bad roll or a population over 8000, which is why you need 5 transports to capture 4 colonies.  

Also, 12 Constructors does NOT cost 5000 BCs.  With a single engine, each construct costs about 225 bcs for something that can move at 5-6 bcs/turn.  I don't build constructors that cost 400 bcs each.  12 constructs cost about 2500 bcs, or half the cost of your estimate.  The ten turn estimate to arrive at location is based on constructs that use one engine.

You're also forgetting that if you go with bare bones, you don't have access to advanced troop modules, and you're lacking in soldering, which greatly increases the chance you need more than 1 transport to capture 1 colony.  What you're not taking into consideration is military losses due to failed invasions.  

Furthermore, your research numbers are off.  Using the Iconian tech tree:

At the slowest tech speed, it takes about 17000 bcs to get all of the Cultural techs. 

In contrast, the military techs take:

6000 for Advanced Hulls and Medium Scale Building

3000 for Space Militarization and Weapons

5000-6000 for even the basic weapon techs.

13000 for Planetary Invasion.  

Or 27000 for a BARE BONES invasion and military force.  And we're ignoring things like life support.  Also, your weapons will quickly become obsolete, and more advanced weapons tech are exponentially more expensive than the previous level.  In contrast, with the Culture method, you already have everything you need.  An arms race with the AI is expensive.  It's best just to circumvent the whole rat race and conquer them "peacefully."  

 Difficulty is masochistic/obscene.  And no, I have not forced AI to max CPU.  Does that make a difference? I'm looking at the forum about this option and the only difference is that the AI re-designs ships more often... which doesn't really matter to me because I don't care what ships the AI has since I'm just building constructors and bribing them against one another.  I don't care if one AI gets more powerful as long as he's at war with another AI just as powerful as him.  

Finally, you only need a handful of starbases at a time because you're making progress continuously.  Once you flip a set of planets, the next group of constructors will arrive to build the starbases to flip the next set of planets.  At which point you disband your old starbases.  The newly flipped planets will add their IP to the next group of planets, leading to a chain effect.

The bribery costs are minimal since people you want to bribe the most (Korath and Drengin) are the ones least likely to get advanced econ/morale techs and are the easiest to bribe. They also have the lowest diplomacy modifiers. Just give them techs that you're going to need anyways, like Xeno Ethics or Xeno Banking.  Sure they get more powerful, but I've noticed they're NEVER the most powerful in the game, tech or colony-wise.  And if you can make them stronger and bribe them to war on the Torians or the Krynn (who tend to be the most powerful in my games), it's totally worth it especially since you're evil as well.

I've noticed in my games the Altarians are always really pitiful, which means that it's easy to start a giant inter-galactic war by bribing the Drengin, Thalans (who also have major research issues early-mid-game), and Korath to attack the Altarians. It sucks everyone in, at which point you can ignore military.  

The numbers are right out of the game. As I mentioned in my post, I was using a Cargo Hull, and no Miniaturization (therefore max size is 60), because that would unnecessarily complicate matters. The bigger the size, the more design options are available. Also, the cost of my design was 417bc, which fits right into your 400-500 ballpark. Not sure why you are complaining.


First off, this design isn't possible with a size of 60. The Troop Modules alone would fill that up, leaving no room for anything else. Also, it has no Life Support Modules, which means, that the range is pretty small. Unless you are playing on a small map, where range isn't an issue, it wouldn't work. There is no point in trying to invade, if I can't reach my target. Also, as I said before, I prefer speed to troop size. Several fast Transports are preferable to a few slow ones. At least in my opinion. The slow speed only increases the chances that the enemy will catch up and destroy them.

One last thing, the most expensive Warp Drive (Mk. V) costs 100bc. I guess you meant the Hyper Warp Drive Mk. III.


If a planet has a population of more than 8b, then send in one Transport with 1k troops, and use Mass Drivers. They won't win, but they're not supposed to. It's just to soften up the enemy. After that, you can send in the rest of the troops, and win with no to minimal losses. There are other ways to minimise the loss ratio too.


You didn't say anything about engines, so I assumed you'd want to reach your target as quickly as possible. That would require at least two engines. Also, your cost seems a little strange. Assuming one Construction Module and one Warp Drive Mk. V, you'd have no Life Support Modules onboard. Otherwise, the cost would be higher. If you are using the Mk. IV drive instead, the base speed would be lower (4 pcs), but you'd have enough leeway in your cost to add several Life Support Modules. If it is the former, then your range will be pretty small. Unless you're playing on small maps, you need to build starbases to reach your enemy.

Also, nice double standard. Your Constructor design fits perfectly on a size 60 Cargo Hull, but for my Troop Transport, you expect Miniaturization research first.

Oh, and your 12 Constructors cost 2700bc, not 2500. It is also very different to what you said earlier (12-18 Constructors costing 2000-3000bc). That implied a cost of roughly 167bc per Constructor, not 225.


I already use more than one Transport per colony, so I'm not seeing your point there. My favourite race, the Yor, also start out with a big bonus to Soldiering, so the lack of more advanced Invasion techs doesn't hurt as much.


You only loose Transports for failing an invasion, so I'm not quite sure what you mean.


How are they off? I was using the Terran tech tree (like in the rest of my post), and have taken the numbers straight out of the game files. On Normal research rates, the numbers are only slightly lower than what I stated, but that also depends on map size.


So, instead of using the Torians for your rebuttal, you use the Iconians, the worst race at military conquest (because they are missing some of the Invasion techs). Plus, you use Very Slow research rates for some reason. But okay. Let's take a look at your numbers. For the record, I'm using the values for a medium sized map. If you used a bigger or smaller map, then please say so.

Culture techs:
Xeno Persuasion 1040
Cultural Domination 2083
Historical Assimilation 2083
Xeno Cultural Trends 3123
Cultural Insurrection 4166
Cultural Conquest 6250
Total: 18745


Hull techs:
Interstellar Construction 206
Expert Engineering 623
Advanced Hulls 1666
Medium Scale Building 2083
Total: 4578


Militarization techs:
Interstellar Warfare 206
Space Militarization 419
Space Weapons: 315
Beam Weapon Theory: 102
or MD/Missile Weapon Theory: 632
Total: 1042 (Beam) or 1572 (MD/Missile)

I'm not certain how far up the tech tree this is supposed to go. Considering that the next point is basic weapon techs, however, I guess this is far enough.


Beam Weapons:
Kinetic Streams I 632
Kinetic Streams II 1265
Kinetic Streams III 2532
Total: 4429

MD Weapons:
Scatter Blaster I 315
Scatter Blaster II 419
Scatter Blaster III 1053
Total: 1787

Missile Weapons:
Seeker I 315
Seeker II 632
Seeker III 1686
Total: 2633


Invasion techs:
Planetary Invasion 2532
Orbital Bombarbment 1686
Stellar Marines 1686
Total: 5904

I guess you counted all of the Invasion techs. However, like I said above, the Iconians don't have access to some of them.


Beam Weapons: (4578+1042+4429+5904) 15953
MD: (4578+1572+1787+5904) 13841
Missiles: (4578+1572+2633+5904) 14687

Still lower than the cost for the Culture techs (18745).


To say that weapons become quickly obsolete is quite a statement, considering that this depends on several factors, like research rate, map size (influences cost and possible research power), weapon type (influences cost), difficulty (bonuses for the AI, if higher than Tough), and the size of the AI's empire (research and econ power). It may sometimes take weeks, but it can also take months, if not years, for your weapons to become outdated. I've seen all of that happening since I began to play.


Some weapon tiers have a not quite linear cost increase, some have a static cost, but none have an exponential cost increase. The only thing, that makes Weapons research harder, is the Tech Inflation. Every time you research something (or buy/steal a tech from someone else), the cost for all your techs increases. Weapon techs, however, are hit the hardest by this increase.


It does. The increased speed, at which the AI is replacing designs, is only part of it. During your turn, the AI is calculating it's own moves. With more processing power, it can do this much better.

Still, if the game is as easy for you, as you make it sound, then turn up the difficulty to Suicidal. I'm curios, if you still manage to win with your strategy.


Still, placing influencer starbases in all of the enemy star systems at the same time would greatly speed up the process. However, you could only do this with small empires. Otherwise, the cost to place those starbases would get prohibitive.


Even if the costs are minimal, they should still be counted for your strategy, because they are a necessity. As for the lowest diplomacy modifiers, that's is only the case for the Drengin (and Thalan).


It's a known AI issue of the Drengin, Korath, and Yor. They don't colonise planets within range of foreign influence. This makes them often loose the colony rush. There are some map settings that alleviate the problem somewhat. Abundant All and Tight Clusters are the best settings for them. Some others work too, as long as you make sure, that they start with a good amount of planets close to their homeworlds. Never use Scattered Star Density! That just cripples them.


Another known issue. The Category for Space Weapons is set to Point Defense in the Altarian tech tree. They will only research it, if somebody is using Missile weapons. In other words, it's unlikely for the Altarians to field a military. There are more bugs like this in the tech trees and other files. MarvinKosh, Tolmekian, MabusAltarn, and I, have released mods to fix those bugs. However, it's your own choice, if you want to use them or not.

All in all, I have nothing against cultural conquest. I even use it myself, sometimes, to supplement my military conquest. What rubs me the wrong way, however, is how you portray your strategy as the ultimate strategy. Even though, by your own admission, you haven't even tried it with the other races.

EDIT: Ok, I got why the numbers are off.   Gigantic map, very slow research speed.  Iconian:

All of the influence techs: about 65000 beakers.  In contrast:

Planetary Invasion: 26000 (base Planetary Invasion).  

Planetary Bombardment for Mass Drivers: 17000

Stellar Marines: 17000

Space Weapons, Interstellar Construction, Strategic Analysis: 10000

Miniaturization up to and including Level 3 (I'm assuming you'd want miniaturization for war): 15000 total.  

Missile Weapons: +Initial Series of Missile Weapons: 10000-20000 depending on how far you want to go.

Future Missile Weapons: Twice as expensive.  The pre-reqs for Psionic Missiles cost in the tens of thousands of bcs.   Psionic Missiles itself is 6608.  

Various hull techs (up to Medium-Scale Building, Advanced Hulls): Tens of thousands of bcs.  

 Planetary Invasion + Bombardment + Stellar Marines already cost as much as the Influence techs.  Add in the other things like actual weapons and miniaturization and hulls and you're paying a crap-ton more.  

Finally, you're missing the point.  With culture-flipping, you ONLY need the cultural techs to conquer planets.  If you choose the military path, you have to get Planetary Invasion, Weapon systems, miniaturization, and hulls.  The COMBINED costs of all of your military techs (even if you stop at basic weapon systems and medium hull design) is 3x more expensive than the culture techs.   

In other words, I can begin conquering with my culture flipping a lot earlier than you can.  I DON'T have to stockpile transports.  I DON'T need all those other tech paths that a military person needs.  I just need the culture techs, and that's it.  Unlike a war-monger, who needs numerous techs from 4 separate tech paths.  

 

EDIT 2: But yes, I agree. With the Yor it's kind of pointless.  But it works well with anyone who can get the influence tech path, which means almost  everyone else.  

@ LTJim

If you aren't at war with any AI, your starbases don't get attacked.  And even if you are attacked, if you can bribe them to attack someone else, you're fine.  You're MORE likely to get your starbases attacked if you choose a military strategy because you're at war with someone.  

Which raises an interesting point: on the diplomacy screen, you can talk to an AI you're at war with and BRIBE them to attack someone else, while remaining at war with them.  

Something to bear in mind is that there are some races which get a 'Lite' constructor module which is cheaper (takes up the same space oddly enough) so you could shave 40bc from those constructors.

As far as actual planetary defence goes, I find that if the AI is going to attack a particular planet, then I may as well rotate my good ships in there and let the enemy burn their ships trying to take the planet.  Or alternatively, if there are lots of enemy fleets, have a few fleets hanging about on standby to keep the planetary defence fleet from taking too much fire in one round.

Knowing where an attack is going to occur (by having good sensor coverage and spy level) means that you can concentrate your forces where they're needed most.  Most planets don't need more than a single fighter to deter transports, and only when you're sure that there are transports inbound.

marigoldran -

Even if you bribe other AIs to declare war with AIs who declare war on you, those same AIs remain at war with you.

That is, if you depend on your planets pop growth to defeat invasions, that same AI that is mounting those unsuccessful invasions will preferentially attack every starbase of yours, including the mining ones.  Without strong defensive fleets, your strategy must assume no mining bases in your math, while ones like Gauanathor can assume multiple bonuses that improve morale, economy, and research.

Also, any AI that defends its blue mining bases gain those influence bonuses while your empire will have none.

Additionally, your strategy seems to depend on fairly dense maps where you can rely on your planets being the major influence projectors, since influence bases will get destroyed by any AI you are at war with.  On more open galaxy types with lower planet density, it may not work as well.

Have you tried your strategy on Suicidal?  On lower habitable planet densities? 

It is certainly correct that there are many diverse paths to victory, especially at lower difficulty levels.

Also, map choice can be tailored to fit a strategy, as well.

In some of the old threads where folk were trying for zero year wins or max scores, they would specify exactly which AIs were in the game to make their results possible.

On suicidal (DA) I have had AIs send multiple fleets at several of my mining bases well within my borders even while they were at war with not one but two other AIs.  You might give Suicidal a try and report back how your strategy worked.  I am quite curious, actually, though I do not own TA.  In DA, one cannot flip planets with the MCC.