What the heck did they do to the economy?

my guess: maintenance costs; they are pretty hefty in TA; esp for some of the high-end structures and the big military ships.

other possible culprits:

4yrs in, i doubt population is a problem, I would hope by this point your planets are maxed out (either 13 or 18b)

Graft: your income takes a very small hit at the 10,000 mark, and a noticeable hit at the 20,000 mark due to "graft"; its easily mistaken/missed by some players not paying attention

leases: those things add up y'know?

taxes: you really can raise them above 20%, its not like SimCity where everyone leaves town once you get above 13%

To help you more, are you able to post a screenshot of your the finance screen? I just switched more consistently to TA not long ago, so my help may be limited, but it will give me and others a starting point to give you some tips

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Hi There,

I think you are right - my problem is with the maintenance costs - but I mean, what can I do? Not build anything?

What did you mean when you say the economy takes a hit at the 10 k mark? 10 k of what?

I have no leases

I can certainly post a screenie ... ummmm .... exactly how do I do that?

Dano

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Treasury is the issue he is speaking of. It's a notacible cut in income once you hit 20,000bc in your treasury.

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thanks Loup, i meant when your treasury hits those milestones, your income will drop. I believe there's another drop again later, but I don't know at what treasury amount that it is at.

Lowering Maintenance: Efficieny, efficiency, efficiency. Really, in any game in any version of GCII (DL, DA, or TA) its always "The Economy, stupid!" From day one that should always be your priority, because if you can get that to flow, everything else will fall into place.

Some things you can do:

Prioritize your worlds: Instead of having a bunch of worlds that give you a lil bit of production, a bit of research, and aren't very good at either: specialize your planets. As a general rule, for every one Production planet you need about 3 worlds that are solely for economic use, since Research is more expensive, you generally need 4 planets per One Research world.

Make an Efficieint fleet, not a numerous fleet: Prioritize your research in a way that your warships will last long and be actually useful for you. Defense and HP are of particular importance, as a strong defense can render your ships nearly unstoppable for long periods of time.

Trade!: Use that diplomacy screen for more than just the "Howdy, Greetings" Grab techs from other races that you don't have that can improve your economic ability, either through passive (flat percentage increases) or by giving you structures that have lower or even no maintenance costs. Same goes for factories and research centers. TA strategy should always include a hefty dose of tech trading.

As for screenshots, I believe in TA, while you are in a game, you just have to hit "Prt Scr" and it will take a picture and save it to the "My Games/Twilight/Screenshots"; from there you'll need to upload it to a file host, such as imageshack or photobucket

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That would be a 'CTRL_Print screen' combo-buttons for the screenshots.

TA is even more of a 'specialization' trick than DA - all the way through mid-game (and, after colony rushing is over) or up until some war *must* be staged against the toughest AI -- which is, btw, inevitable want it or not.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

I know that specializing worlds is The Way to Play for many (most?) folks, especially the scoremonsters. But it is not necessary, at least when you play at Tough or lower difficulty. I only money-farm on Class 10 or smaller worlds, and I find that having most of my worlds "general purpose" means that improvement upgrade cycles are quicker. Plus, looking at great swaths of the same building is boring...

The real econ trick in TA is slow development (yes, not building anything is good early on) and making econ buildings generally the first improvements you build once a colony has grown enough to pay its own maintainence. Tech trading is also not necessary, although I'm looking forward to how things work with No Tech Brokering enabled.

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Thanks for the info everyone ...

Yes, I guess my problem is not enough money worlds. I am still playing using the DA mindset where a third of my planets were production, a third were research and a third money.

What you are saying is that about 70% of your worlds should be straight money worlds, with the remainder being research and production worlds. So if I have 8 worlds then roughly I should have 1 production world, 1 research world and 6 straight money worlds Correct?

How many factories do you usually put on a research or money world? 2? 3?

What exactly did they change in DA that led to such a drastic change in strategy? Did they triple maintenance costs or something? This is a question, not a complaint. I am all for learning new tricks in a beloved game.

Oh ... here is another question. The production bonus for star bases to military, social and research. I guess there is no point on building those around money worlds, right?

Dano

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

How many factories do you usually put on a research or money world? 2? 3?

I like to have 2 (occasionally 3), but if a game goes long enough to finish out the improvement techs, I might convert factories on worlds with no starport to money or research.

Did they triple maintenance costs or something?

I don't know the factor, but yes, maintainence is markedly higher. Supposedly tourism and trade income were boosted, which "justified" the cost increases, but to me it just felt tighter and meant I had to start keeping a close eye on the budget details.

The production bonus for star bases to military, social and research. I guess there is no point on building those around money worlds, right?

The Initial Colony improvement always produces research, so it would get some help from an econ SB, but that might not be worth the constructors on some maps. If your habitable worlds are sparse, yea, I can imagine map regions where econ bases are pretty pointless. I like tight clusters and generous worlds, so I rarely have a quadrant with just one world in it.

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assuming your sliders are at 1/49/50 (the most efficient use of production and research); then yes at 8 worlds you would have 1 prod, 1 research, and 6 econ. Generally, for me, i have one-two factories on all worlds to keep build times manageable. On research worlds, I will usually buy the first lab and then use Focus to do the building, no factories.

Yes, they majorly upped the maintenance costs; also they lowered your starting treasury. They did up the trade and tourism income though quite a bit.

As for starbases...I know for me personally, i only build them around worlds that it is most cost effective; that is for example, I will build 4 'Booster' bases around my planet that has my Manufacturing capital and/or a Precursor Mine; but a 'normal' production world wouldnt get starbases around it.

With you playing as the Korx I would strongly suggest a network of trade starbases, around your HW and then along the path to your biggest trading partner(s); dont try to do it on ALL thet trade lines, it would be cost prohibitive, but even a few SBs should make a noticeable difference.

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What you are saying is that about 70% of your worlds should be straight money worlds, with the remainder being research and production worlds.

I would say it would all depend on the tech tree you are playing for a %. The Dregin/Korath have very low maintenance buildings, whereas the Thalan and Iconians drown in maintenance fees.

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if maintanence cost is too high, get rid of some factories and build more morale centers. I had this problems with the Torians, then i get rid of 90 percent of my factory then spam build morale centers, then problem solved.

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All of this makes me think of a thing: Doesn't this make the Torians far superior to other species in terms of the economy? They can fully populate their worlds much faster, they have far superior morale structures to anyone else anywhere, and as such, can keep more Stock Exchanges on each world for a larger profit, earlier in the game. What's the catch?

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

Doesn't this make the Torians far superior to other species in terms of the economy?

I haven't played as Torians very much, but I've seen plenty of variation in their behavior across games. Sometimes they can indeed generate a fearsome horde pretty quickly, but I think they need the right starting map position (including who their neighbors are) to make best use of their ludicrous reproduction rates. It doesn't do you that much good to breed like rabbits if you can only build a few colony ships compared to what your neighbors are doing.

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Quoting MarkWarren,

reply 12

All of this makes me think of a thing: Doesn't this make the Torians far superior to other species in terms of the economy? They can fully populate their worlds much faster, they have far superior morale structures to anyone else anywhere, and as such, can keep more Stock Exchanges on each world for a larger profit, earlier in the game. What's the catch?

Economically...no, I don't think anyone can beat them. Their catch however is stunted research ability. After the colony rush is complete and empires are now required to try and out-tech an opponent...the Torians start faltering. It takes some time since they'll have triedto offset it via mass numbers of planets.

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Ah, that makes sense. I'm in the middle of a game right now, and the Torians have quite rightly gone from being some strange beast capable of warring on every other war-like race at a time without flinching and now, they're pretty much just a recruiting ground for me and the Terran's Influence abilities.

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Pick Econ ability to 30%, Luck 25%, that helps alot to find more 1000 credit anomalies. Also get those government techs all done by early to mid game. Also use moral of 20% ability to tax tax tax those people to feed your Empire needs. As you get new moral buildings raise taxes. By end game I have taxes at say 75%-90%+. If you want to put points into population growth it works too. Try out the all labs, factory or econ strategy... your choice... Only build ships when you need to. Just keep the neighbors happy(trade, treaties, diplom, gifts and give in to some demands, most importantly make them fight each other). Take advantage of those minors... If you can master this you can keep the production cap to 100% the whole time without lowering it is quite possible. Ok need to go to bed got work in the morning and I am feeling a little sick still....

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Quoting Silverbeacher,

reply 4

thanks Loup, i meant when your treasury hits those milestones, your income will drop. I believe there's another drop again later, but I don't know at what treasury amount that it is at.

Lowering Maintenance: Efficieny, efficiency, efficiency. Really, in any game in any version of GCII (DL, DA, or TA) its always "The Economy, stupid!" From day one that should always be your priority, because if you can get that to flow, everything else will fall into place.

Some things you can do:

Prioritize your worlds: Instead of having a bunch of worlds that give you a lil bit of production, a bit of research, and aren't very good at either: specialize your planets. As a general rule, for every one Production planet you need about 3 worlds that are solely for economic use, since Research is more expensive, you generally need 4 planets per One Research world.

Make an Efficieint fleet, not a numerous fleet: Prioritize your research in a way that your warships will last long and be actually useful for you. Defense and HP are of particular importance, as a strong defense can render your ships nearly unstoppable for long periods of time.

Trade!: Use that diplomacy screen for more than just the "Howdy, Greetings" Grab techs from other races that you don't have that can improve your economic ability, either through passive (flat percentage increases) or by giving you structures that have lower or even no maintenance costs. Same goes for factories and research centers. TA strategy should always include a hefty dose of tech trading.

As for screenshots, I believe in TA, while you are in a game, you just have to hit "Prt Scr" and it will take a picture and save it to the "My Games/Twilight/Screenshots"; from there you'll need to upload it to a file host, such as imageshack or photobucket

Thanks for the tips as to how to be sucessful in TOA. I keep on having the same problems in TOA that Dano13 has with his economy as well. It just keeps on tanking and really the only way to get it to stop tanking (at least momentarily) would be to research the Star Federation Government and sell your tech to rival civilizations to maintain cash in your treasury. Those tips such as designating certain worlds for specific tasks like reasearch makes alot of sense as you will have better efficiency in your Empire with areas such as the economy since you have specialized worlds. But what I don't get is how do you lower maintainance besides through getting rid of ineffective warships? Do you do that by lowering the military spending or what?

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as for military maintenance, you can decommission your old ships for a small profit (I believe its only worth a percentage of its base cost) but still its money.

I don't build a lot of ships, period. But when I do, I take a look at the AI and see what kind of weapon techs they have (and defenses if they have them) and match accordingly. So if the Drengin had ships with Mass Drivers and Shields; I'd build my ships with either Mass Drivers or Missiles, and Armor for defense. I'd make sure that my defense is equal to or higher than their attack. This makes my ships nearly invulnerable to their attacks.

Another thing you can do, in general, is: DON'T BUILD RIGHT AWAY on new worlds. You figure you have 0.25 Billion people; its gonna take a while (usually around the 2-3 billion mark) before a world starts turning a profit (covers it base maintenance). Thats when you can start slowly building new structures.

Keep morale high- morale is the second most important attribute next to economy. Happy people breed faster which means- you guessed it more money.

You can also tax happy people at a higher rate which also means, more money.

yes, Morale + Economy = Victory

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on larger maps with lots of anomalies, it can help a lot to get an extra surveyor or two out early.

IIRC maint. costs now apply to non-military ships, so try not to keep constructors and colony ships around if you don't need them. also try to send constructors directly to their intended targets, rather than gathering them at a common staging point.

there are other little tricks to be found here and there. war profiteering is an interesting ability that the korx and drath get. in a recent game, i managed to keep my drath empire afloat by keeping all the other AIs at war with each other. IIRC there were 6 suicidal AIs and i was netting about 8k/turn from their wars.

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IIRC maint. costs now apply to non-military ships,

I think the only non-military ship that has a maintenance is the constructor. At least I think that's what they settled on before TA went live.

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ah. well, either way, considering that i sometimes have a few hundred constructors going at once, it's no small addition.

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I never have any trouble with the economy in toa... Im playing on Tough with humans (for now) and im a Federalist (20% eco-bonus).

What i have been notising in all my games is that influence and government-tech gives u quite a eco-boost. In my first years in a game i always focus heavily on theese techs: Eco, influence, government and moral.

By year 2 i have an economy thats supports all i ever need.

I also just build "enough" millitary to keep invaders out, and if they still attack i just give them some tech to stay the heck away.

I doesent matter witch game u play, money IS everything! Hence i always secure a stabel economy before anything else.

With money u can bulid wwhatever u want, buy whatever u want , and bribe whoomever u want.

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Didn't really have a tougher time with the economy in ToA. Mostly it's just the same. Of course, I do penny-pinch as a matter of personal habit, so that might have something to do with it.

Generally speaking, I don't produce buildings that I can't maintain and pour money into in order to make it effective. You need to source your income before you decide to spend it. You can plan to have your income increase simultaneously with production and research buildings, but that's generally tough to do. It's better to err on the side of money, since you can always rush buy production or research buildings with excess cash, but a research planet lying fallow because of lack of money is a royal waste.

It can be tough to manage the expansion phase, but doing what I did in DA and DL managed to work just fine - spam colony ships and population bonus facilities like the plague, then beeline for economy buildings and build those. Your capital can do econ buildings after facs, then Manufacturing Capital for more production while your colonies are increasingly taxed for money.

For reference, I just played as the Korx, too, and about 160 turns in, I'm generating over 1000 BC in excess cash. Settings are Large, with Occasional Planets and Common Habitables, Occasional extreme planets. Were you using Super Trade Starbase modules? With overlapping fields of influence, these things can make each of your trade routes worth hundreds of BC each turn.

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Lots of good advice in this thread.

Be sure to check your Stats as well. I have had games where my economic bonus was 29% (late game - ouch) ranging up to 200% (econ bases, lucky surveyors, econ bonus techs) With a low bonus you will needs lots of economic worlds, with a high bonus you can do whatever you want and never go broke. It really just depends on the luck and available resources of each game. (The low bonus game had morale, influence, research and military resources and was no problem to win.)

Each game is different even with the same race, which really adds to the fun and challenge.

Be sure to build your Economic capital before you capture a minor planet that also has an Economic capital.

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