Espionage in DA/TA

Formerly "Espionage Intel Levels"

By on June 25, 2008 12:35:01 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Loupdinour

Join Date 11/2006
+72

I'm trying to compile a guide on everything one would need to know about the Espionage system in DA/TA, so far, here's what I got:

First off though, props to jpinard for his DA guide, and for this post the page on espionage.

Intel Levels:

Low:  5
Medium:  15
High:  43
Advanced:  147

Those are totals, not how many more you need to get to the next level.

Spy-weeks: each week a single spy is planted on a planet is 1 spy week.  If multiple spies are planted, then multiple spy-weeks are accomplished.

Example, if you have 15 spies to use and placed them all on the same race w/o ever placing them on a race before, you should get Medium intel level that next turn.

The +Espionage skill:

-the +Espionage skill seems to only affect the amount of money you spend to train spies.  Unlike research/social/military bonuses that you only pay for 1/2 of the bonus, espionage you pay for all of it.  Whatever your +% is, you'll spend that much more money than what the slider would have been for a race w/o the skill.  So a 1,000 bc income race with +0 set at 25% would spend 250bc a week, a race with +50 would spend 375 bc a week.  The effect of this skill and tech stealing is still not known to me...give me some more time.

Spy Costs

When there is only 1 week remaining to train a spy and the funds devoted to training exceed whats required to train the spy, the balance will be refunded to you the next week.

I tried to find a formula for the costs, to just post that up on be the end all, well...that ended up not being what I was seeing for a pattern.

The first spy is 100bc, it escallates to 180bc by the 5th, then has a huge jump at 6th, 10th, 18th.  With those exceptions in mind, the rest were pretty much just a 1bc increase in cost change.  To give some milestones, 25th spy, 2,975bc, 50th spy 5,230bc, 75th spy 8,165bc, 100th spy 11,650bc.

In my test, the overall cost for 100 spies put me to 554,644bc

For average Joe Spy User, I'll post the first 20 spy costs:

1-100, 2-109, 3-127, 4-150, 5-180, 6-710, 7-745, 8-785, 9-822, 10-1167, 11-1215, 12-1260, 13-1315, 14-1367, 15-1422, 16-1480, 17-1540, 18-2499, 19-2562, 20-2628.

By this point, it's a very linear change in cost.

DA 2.0/TA 2.0

1 large change has happened to espionage in 2.0.  Now you can passively spy on a race.  This is done by devoting a spy (up to 4 per race) permantly to a race.  In order to reach each of the above intel levels, you must have 1 (low), 2 (medium), 3 (high), or 4 (advanced) spies placed to reach it, as well as the wait time to accrue spy-weeks.  This passive spy system is now the ONLY way to get intel, agressive/planetary spies won't gain intel anymore.

For example, if you only place 1 spy on the Korx, 5 weeks later you'll hit Low.  If you don't change the number of spies allocated to them, then even if you wait another 10 rounds, you won't see Medium.  Upon placing the 2nd spy, you'll start acrruing spy-weeks again, at the rate of the number currently placed.  So in this case, placing a 2nd spy on the Korx after hitting Low will net you 2 spy-weeks and thus hit Medium in 5 more weeks.  Nothing is stopping you from dumping 4 on the race right off the bat and forgetting about it, but I just wanted to point out the thresholds.

Also changed in espionage is the ability to spy on minor races....hellooo dread lords, gimmie your tech!!!

Version Bugs:

-2.00 thru 2.02 Any passive spies on a race that gets destroyed, will perish, unlike planetary spies which get refunded to you.  (Bug confirmed in 2.00-2.02, a fix should be in place for 2.03)

Other FAQs:

-Planetary spies will temporarily shut down an improvement.  Some wonders/trade goods effects however don't seem to be affected by the shut-down.  Once the spy gets nullified, the building is fully operational again.  In the case of farms, the next turn after being sabotaged, the population cap that it provided will be gone and any excess population will die off.  Once that spy moves on/is nullified, then the population begins to grow again like normal.

-Best way to avoid spies being nullified is either move them around constantly, or better yet, send them in a lrage wave(like 12 or so).  Some will be nullified, but the AI doesn't seem to stockpile spies and will have to train new spies slowly from then on.  Target their economic buildings/farms to har mtheir income since spy training is linked to raw income.

-Any of your planetary spies on a planet that you aquire (by any means) will return to you.


*edits*
06/26/08   Re-confirmed Low and I have a non-range number for Medium, High & Advanced.  No comment on a +Espionage race yet though.  Once I reconfirm those last three, I'll move onto one of those races.

09/27/08   It's been a long time, but 2.0's beta is now out so I'm rekindling my look into espionage.  spy-weeks have been nailed down.  Right now b4 I hit the hay, I have spy costs up to the 37th spy, hoping to hit 100 before I calc.

09/28/08   Found answer on destroyed race & passive spy question.  I got first set of spy costs (up to spy 100), nothing on this will get posted until I go thru the espionage skill check since I want to collect these costs multiple times to confirm.

09/29/08  I added the effect of the +espionage skill to the OP.  Nothing else ground-breaking to note right now...just a ton more turn clickings and cost tallying.  Man I'm enjoying my dual monitors right now.

10/08/08  Well, I re-named the thread finally..."Espionage Intel Levels" just no longer fit the scope of this thread.  In doing so, I re-formatted a bit of the beginning of the post.

12/04/08  I need to revisit my last comment about passive spy loss now that we can remove passive spies.

12/07/08  Added Spy Cost section and added confirmation/bug report of passive spy loss.

12/15/08  Added info about 2.00-2.02 bug of passive spy loss

12/18/08  Added link to jpinard's DA guide as well as a FAQ section (which will get updated as I see questions asked on the forums)

06/05/09 Post spy cost information.  After a year of working on this project...I think I've completed it to my point.  Any future edits will be game version related.

67 Replies
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 25, 2008 10:08:07 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
I find it much easier to spend the BCs than to pay careful enough attention to give a report like this

I look forward to some other numbers-sharp folks confirming or correcting your data.

I'm also still suspicious that the Espionage ability (or perhaps just the Krynn Super Ability) affects the math here. But like I said, I'm not so focused on the numbers when I'm actually playing. And my imagination often gets out of hand...
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 25, 2008 10:48:00 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
After I get the numbers with a race w/o the bonuses I'll check with one of them (Krynn & Iconians). This game was with the Yor, but I'll still need to check my ability table to see if I found any anomalies that may affect things.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 26, 2008 4:20:46 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
Small update (& documentation for myself), when I got those numbers I only had a +5% Espionage. The OP will get updated if I confirm any further numbers.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 26, 2008 5:12:09 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
Very interesting, Loup. Those numbers seem a bit high to me, especially at the top. What size galaxy were you playing. I usually play at med or smaller, so I wonder if this scales up with galaxy size. I tend to find a fair amount of espionage anomalies, so this may be why I seem to be noticing this.

I'm also interested in the effect the bonuses have on these numbers. AFAIK, no one has confirmed that these actually speed things up.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 26, 2008 6:20:39 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
That was on a Medium map. 5 has been a universal Low in any map I've played though.

Note, these are spy-weeks. If 4 spies are in on an empire, that counts as 4 spy-weeks for every game week they are in place. Wait til you got 150 spies and you, theoretically, would have Advanced in one game week.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 26, 2008 6:37:39 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
I'm also interested in the effect the bonuses have on these numbers. AFAIK, no one has confirmed that these actually speed things up.


Taken word-for-word from page 14 of my GC2DA manual concerning espionage points in customizing a race, "Espionage adds to the effectiveness of your espionage spending."

Also, when going to the galactic manager screen and finding the breakdown under race abilities, the espionage level is listed there. I have checked immediately before and after encountering a +5% espionage anamoly, and the figure goes up by 5%.

All these numbers added together reflect how many spies you create for "X" amount of money. If I spent
1000BC on espionage and received 5 spies and had 0% espionage bonus, then I would receive 6 spies if I had a 20% percent bonus if I spent 1000BC. (Provided of course that this bonus was in place during the entire spending)


BTW the Super Spy Ability does not list any bonus in the espionage dept. (Just the counter espionage tech and a starting spy, neither of which affect the civ-wide bonus) however, the Krynn do have a +50% bonus under their normal abilities to espionage and of course the techs that allow buildings which add to the espionage bonus as well.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 26, 2008 10:05:41 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
I'm under that same impression mdsorom, but none-the-less I'll spend the bc in the name of science to find it out for sure.

Now, if I was REALLY looking for science, I'd try to figure out the spy cost formula...That'll be my next step

Oh...and updated OP.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 27, 2008 9:15:30 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
Espionage adds to the effectiveness of your espionage spending.


And hastiness reduces the precision of many a technical manual

Seriously, though, this is an item from a bullet list and there is no surrounding context to explain the mysterious "effectiveness." I would prefer to see (accurate) wording such as "Espionage reduces the cost of producing spies and increases the rate at which a placed spy adds to the intelligence level against the target civilization."
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 27, 2008 9:23:55 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
I'll be confirming that later, but as far as I remember, +espionage only allows you to SPEND more money, thus getting spies faster.

So for example, figuring the exact same incomes for all 3 races:
-the Yor with +0 would spend, lets say 1,000bc when set at 25% spending
-the Kyrnn with their +50 would spend 1,500bc when set at 25% spending
-the Iconians with their +100 would spend 2,000bc when set at 25% spending

That's at least what I've always thought of it. My next game I'll record costs for each spy as well and keep track of that then as well.

I've been dying to know this for too long, so I'll just run the numbers myself
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 27, 2008 4:02:54 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
I'll be confirming that later, but as far as I remember, +espionage only allows you to SPEND more money, thus getting spies faster.So for example, figuring the exact same incomes for all 3 races:-the Yor with +0 would spend, lets say 1,000bc when set at 25% spending-the Kyrnn with their +50 would spend 1,500bc when set at 25% spending-the Iconians with their +100 would spend 2,000bc when set at 25% spendingThat's at least what I've always thought of it. My next game I'll record costs for each spy as well and keep track of that then as well.I've been dying to know this for too long, so I'll just run the numbers myself


Thats a major task!    The most accurate way to do this would have to be by keeping your +ESP bonus static. If this bonus starts at 0% during your game and ends up at 60% later, then all the data gathered during that time would confuse your formula. Unless you track the bonuses per turn as well and adjust for it.

I hope someone official like Kryo or Frogboy will post here to save you the trouble as I am nearly certain that the bonus to the ESP simply adds to the rate you get spies for every dollar spent.

Happy hunting though Lup, I admire your dedication
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 27, 2008 4:09:44 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
Sometimes finding something out is half the fun!!!
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 30, 2008 8:01:11 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
Happy hunting though Lup, I admire your dedication


Ditto. I'm embarking on my own quest, or I'd join you in the hunt. I'll definitely follow this thread though, to see what you have found out.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
June 30, 2008 9:02:12 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
This weekend was filled with merriment, so I didn't get much galciv in. I started to get data on spy costs though. I got to remember to write things down when involved with spies from now on though to help refine things further. I'm currently pretty happy with those numbers up above, but the next non-ZYW I do I'll get back on this quest.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 16, 2008 4:24:18 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
Haven't forgotten about this, but I have put it on the back-burner. With the 2.0 changes to Espionage looming, I'm leery as to how much work I wish to put into this project.

I've found a new "shiny object" project to chase for the mean time. While I'm working on that, I'll try to confirm those last 3 intel level costs.

Spy costs have been put on indefinite hold as I see them being part of the Espionage overhaul in 2.0

I just remembered to give an update to this thread when I saw someone asking a question about this.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 19, 2008 6:02:29 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
What about a different approximation:

Low: 5
Medium: 5*3
High: 5*3*3
Advanced: 5*3*3*3? Or 5*30, perhaps
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 21, 2008 6:13:31 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums
Loupdinour,
once the 2.0 comes out I for one will turn my attention to the spying as well, and record all the data I can about my espionage related activity in a game or three. Whether I'll be able to produce anything meaningful out of the data, or just supply it to you as is, that's another question.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
July 21, 2008 9:28:57 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums
The more eyes on it the better I'd say. Thanks for the offer.
Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2008 5:39:43 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Well, today they released Espionage 2.0 info here.  Once the beta comes out (and I get a MVL resposability completed) I'll jump on the 2.0 beta and get right into this.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 19, 2008 8:24:12 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Loupdinour,
I'll be confirming that later, but as far as I remember, +espionage only allows you to SPEND more money, thus getting spies faster.

So for example, figuring the exact same incomes for all 3 races:
-the Yor with +0 would spend, lets say 1,000bc when set at 25% spending
-the Kyrnn with their +50 would spend 1,500bc when set at 25% spending
-the Iconians with their +100 would spend 2,000bc when set at 25% spending

That's at least what I've always thought of it. My next game I'll record costs for each spy as well and keep track of that then as well.

I've been dying to know this for too long, so I'll just run the numbers myself

hum ... if espionnage works the way that other galciv2 abilities work then it should rather be :

-the Yor with +0 would spend, lets say 1,000bc when set at 25% spending
-the Kyrnn with their +50 would spend 1,500bc when set at 25% spending but would only really be charged for 1250bc  (250 free bc added to calculations)
-the Iconians with their +100 would spend 2,000bc when set at 25% spending but would only really be charged for 1500bc (500 free bc)

That is: half the bonus is free of charge like for social production and all the others. well that's IF espionnage is in line with the general galciv2 way of dealing with bonuses

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 27, 2008 3:15:02 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Updated the OP with some info about 2.0's espionage.  I also nailed down the spy-weeks and am completly happy with them now.

I gotta get to bed (3am here lol), but later today I'll get back to work on spy costs.  I curently have costs up to the 37th spy...hoping to hit 100 if the AI doesn't fold on me before then :/  I got a planet w/ a re-education center...I may have to give them that lol.

Currently, I've spent 79,612bc on spies.  Each spy is hitting me for a bit over 4k right now.

I think the one AI is about to die via culture flipping, so I'll find out if you get your spies back upon the defeat of a race you have passive spies on.  This may be important since there is currently no way to remove passive spies.  I think this is intentional and can understand why.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 27, 2008 12:59:08 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Do you know whether passive spies are capable of tech-steal (or how tech-steal in general works now)?  Also, have you had a chance to see if there were any changes to the espionage ability?  Is +100 espionage worth anything now?  Thanks for your work on all of this btw! .

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 27, 2008 4:06:45 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

I have advanced w/ both races...and no tech stolen yet.  I think BoogieBac said it didn't change on how it was in DA/TA (pre 2.0) so I'd only assume that placing spies on planets would yeild a tech steal.

The +espionage ability hasn't been checked by me yet.  I actually went out of my way to make sure I keep at 0 in the skill..I turned down anomolies and saved b4 each one just to make sure.  That 5% from an anomoly really can mess things up when doing a control set.  After hitting 100 spies w/ my control race, I'll move to the Krynn, then Iconians (want to get multiple readings afterall...)

Getting the spy costs nailed down is actually fairly hard,  I'm going to have to run the numbers multiple times and take an average and then still make an educated guess on what SD was shooting for.  Right now there can be a swing of 300bc by moving the slider 1%.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 27, 2008 9:36:14 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

It would of been nice at least when the time came to steal a tech, we actually had a selection of choice on which tech to steal? It would add more strategy to it?

*This is just one example of why I haven't noticed much change in this new system of espionage????

Other examples ... As soon as we reached advanced level of espionage we could have a choice on either ...

1)  sabotaging diplomacy

2)  sabotaging economy

3)  sabotaging military

etc...

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 27, 2008 10:37:43 PM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

Wow...I just had to go back and double check myself.  Your post was the same here as the beta thread.  Here I thought I somehow replied in the wrong thread lol.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
September 28, 2008 12:18:37 AM from GalCiv II Forums GalCiv II Forums

561,053 bc spent on espionage after gaining my 100th spy.  That bugger cost me 11,962 bc.  This game was played on Normal w/ 2 AI's with me as the Alterians.  No spy took me longer than 3 weeks to aquire since all my planets were jacked for stock markets and had 1 farm each.  I was pocketing ~8k a week w/o the econ event (was 24k a week at that point).  No techs were stolen this entire time, so it is safe to say that if you desire techs from a race, you must place active spies on the planets.

In my update OP, I mentioned that any passive spies placed on an AI that is destroyed go 'poof', unlike their planetary sabotaging brothers, which get refunded.

Next stop, a game as the Krynn, working up to the 100th spy there as well.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #108431  walnut1   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000859   Page Render Time: