How to use spies? » Forum Post by Lord Grotius

Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

Unfortunately, the spy units cannot target anything other than the tile you place them on, and you have no choice but to disable that tile, which motivates the target to snuff the spie. The tech stealing is a chance event related to your espionage level, and, IIRC, is not possible until you reach Advanced (the same level where you can view starbase stats and planet screens).

In DL, you spent credits to raise your intel level for each major civ. With DA, you have to have spies in place for some period of time. You can gain levels faster by deploying groups of spies (I usually assign a trio to an empire).

The attrition business can be a challenge. Unless it is very early in the game, I don't send spies out until I have both a defense core (3-6 units) and a few backups for the field time to cover losses. I also retrieve the buggers after I get whatever level I was interested in, since they cost so freakin' much after you've built several.

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I tend to not get around to doing too much intel. I'll usually have about 8 spies in the waiting when i start to use them. Usually on the economic capital of a potential enemy. I'll leave it there until its nullified.

There have been games where I've gotten high spionage on a few AI's. If they are pretty weak and my relations are good i don't bother, since i won't need to know anything to crush them.

Basically i keep a few to either make the AI use credits to try to nullify my agents when i have a much better economy and to use on their farms before an invasion. SOmetimes i'll trhow one onto a tech capital or a tile with a 300% bonus.

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Spying farms before invasion is a good idea, thanks.

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Thanks for the helpful replies. So if you spend money on espionage but don't place a spy, you don't gain any levels, right?

Also, once you've gained an intel level, can you ever lose it? Again, I'm asking about TA here.

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The problem with the crazy increasing costs for spies is that the AI has a significant economic advantage at higher levels. Even in games where I'm feeling very comfortable with my money flow, the AI still seems to be able to afford to place more than I can nullify. I'm sure that the better players can finagle their economy to have more agents at their disposal, but for me, spies are practically useless.

If I'm so far ahead economically that I have a bunch of free agents to spend as I want, that means I'm already winning the game and I don't need the spies.

The strategy of using spies on farms prior to invasion...I haven't had the chance to try it myself yet. How quickly does the population dwindle after the farm is placed? How quickly does the AI nullify spies on farms? If the spy ends up being nullifed, is the cost less than spending the money on invasion tactics or another transport?

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

if you spend money on espionage but don't place a spy, you don't gain any levels, right?

Yes.

Also, once you've gained an intel level, can you ever lose it? Again, I'm asking about TA here.

AFAIK, you retain the viewing ability (seeing ship paths, planet screens), but you might slowly get lower chances to steal a tech; maybe Iztok knows. I've not heard of any major changes to spying for TA.

Re spying on farms, it reduces pop to the planet's max capacity without that farm on the next turn. If the planet was below max, it might have no effect. I hate the exploit, personally, and never use it. I imagine the spy is nullified as soon as a unit is availble to do the job.

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Re spying on farms, it reduces pop to the planet's max capacity without that farm on the next turn. If the planet was below max, it might have no effect. I hate the exploit, personally, and never use it. I imagine the spy is nullified as soon as a unit is availble to do the job.

I just loaded up an old save and tried it out.

Yes, the very next turn, the population drops to the new maximum cap. It's the same as if you decommissioned a farm on one of your own planets.

Many of the spies I placed (for only one turn) did not get nullified. So either the AI didn't have the spies to spend, or else it didn't think it necessary. In any case, by the time they have the chance to nullify it, the people are already dead.

I took an 18 billion AI planet down to 6 billion in one turn using spies. That's pretty impressive. That's worth doing even if you don't plan to invade the next turn. That's a huge economic loss.

If you think about it though, the population birth rate is pretty ridiculous. The speed at which time passes in the game isn't the same for everything. So there is no reason to think that the death rate isn't similarly balanced by the game designers. It's impossible that the designers did not consider what happens when a farm is disabled. I don't categorize this as an exploit because it seems to be working as designed.

Edit: On second thought, I've never had the AI disable farms on my own planets before. So given that the AI doesn't take advantage of this functionality, it could be considered unfair to use yourself. Since the AI does have a huge economic advantage, it could absolutely devastate your economy if it so desired. Every spy you can't afford to nullify is billions more dead the following turn when it gets moved to another farm.

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I've written on spies several times, and there are several guidlines I use for them.

First: Don't expect to steal techs with them. You have to have advanced level and then the ability to leave them for long periods of time, and then it only happens like once every hundred turns. It is unrealistic to expect to get a useful return on investment.

Second: always deploy your spies in packs of three or more. Three spies usually give you low in one turn and medium in two more. Single spies get neutralized quickly and prompt the empire to build a new one at the same time you are. Many empires never build spies until they are used against them, which can allow you to insert your group of spies, get to meduim and get out before they build even a single spy.

Third: Shoot for medium intel level first. Medium intel allows you to see where his ships are bound and get a briefing on his empire. I always stop there until I have medium on all the empires. I just don't find the higher levels that useful tactically. Once you have medium on everyone, you can shoot for the higher levels on important opponents.

Fourth: Don't keep defensive pools of spies. A spy that is deployed is just as usefull for defense as one sitting around. Your spies do not neutralize enemies unless you tell them to, and since you can recall a spy and neutralize an enemy in the same turn, there is no point not to use every spy you can to overwhealm your enemy.

Fifth: Beware of building up too many spies. If you build up a pool of around 20 spies, you can trigger the "spy on every planet in the galaxy" event. (The good news is that if you do, the AI will never be able to deal with it as well as you can.)

Using your spies on farms is just evil, but there are a lot of things in this game that encourage evil behavior.

Scincerely,

Scintor@aol.com

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Scintor +1

That's more or less how I use spies also. If I'm playing as the Krynn, Iconians, or a custom race with a high espionage bonus, I will use spies as weapons to disable key structures like Econ/Manufacturing Capitols, factories built on Precursor Mines, etc.. Yes, the spending scale gets steep, but with a high espionage rating, the AI has to spend a lot more money to get rid of my spy.

Also note that I play mostly on Crippling (Genius) where the AI economy runs at 125%. As others have noted, this is not a viable strategy at the highest difficulty settings. It's even pretty expensive at Crippling, but that's why I only do it with races that have a high espionage bonus.

I will disagree with Scintor's 4th point. I always keep one defensive spy, at least until I can build Counter Espionage Centers on my really important worlds. Nothing more annoying then an enemy spy on your own Manufacturing Capitol or Precursor Mine and not being able to do anything about it for several turns.

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Spying farms before invasion is a good idea, thanks.

This didn't make much sense to me until I thought about the fact that population consists of only true citizens and if you cut off the food supply that would limit how many soldiers that they could assemble and supply for.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

I like two things about Advanced level: being able to view full planet details w/o the place-no-spy exploit, and the occasional tech theft.

I play long games, but never watch the clock. I'm pretty sure you don't need to leave spies there after getting Advanced in order to score the occasional tech. It sure doesn't seem a hundred-turn wait, but like I said, I don't watch the clock.

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

Offensively, spies on morale buildings are often more effective than on farms. This is undoubtably an exploit, so if you don't want to hear about it, don't read.

Use spies to disable all morale buildings on a planet. Select something else, then reselect that planet on the main map. This refreshes the planet's happiness to reflect the lack of morale buildings. Attack using the propaganda ability. If necessary, repeat without the refresh step. That will allow you to attack with propaganda again, using the now artificially low happiness of the planet.

Defensively, counter intelligence buildings are cheaper than spies in the long run. After 25-30 spies, you are paying more for a spy than you are for the building. Having one on most of your planets also makes the mega spies event a joke.

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I haven't used spies all that much, except to screw around after I basically won the game already and defensive nullifying.

What does the propaganda ability do? I've never heard it mentioned until now. How do you use it?

Defensively, counter intelligence buildings are cheaper than spies in the long run. After 25-30 spies, you are paying more for a spy than you are for the building. Having one on most of your planets also makes the mega spies event a joke.

Yes, but you aren't factoring in the opportunity cost of using that tile. If the one tile on most of your planets had a stock market instead, it would pay for the spy, no? I didn't run the math. Personally, I'd much rather use the valuable tile space for a functionality I can take advantage of right now. No AI uses spies so much that I wish I had a counter intelligence building on most planets.

The AI does seem to target particular planets, so you could build one there, but it would just place that spy on another planet instead. Overall, I don't think they are worth researching or building.

As for the mega spies event, in all the games I've played, I've only encountered it twice. It also affects the AI as well, so it's not like you are screwed more than the AI.

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I've never built a CEC, so I didn't know the stats on it. I looked it up in Galactopedia. 400 cost for 20% morale boost and spy immunity. I didn't realize it had a morale boost. 400 cost could also build a 40% morale boost for the VR center.

Hmm...my Galactopedia is crashing, so I can't look up the costs of other buildings that you could be building for that 400 cost and tile space.

I don't know. I guess the morale boost means it does something even if spies aren't being used by the AI. But overall, spies don't seem to be a big part of the AI game.

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

Admittedly, most of my games are on enormous maps, so I might make more spies than you. But in my current game spies are running 4k+ bc each right now. That is a lot of money to be used killing one enemy spy. How long would it take for any given planet to generate that much income from one additional stock market?

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If we ran the math, it might show that there is a point when the CEC is a better economic choice over the stock market.

But you aren't calculating the opportunity cost properly. It's not how long it would take for any given planet. It's how long would it take for ALL planets. You are using up a tile for the CEC that could be a stock market instead. You have to calculate the cost over all planets, not just the one planet.

Let's look at an overly simplified example. If there are 200 planets, then which is better?

200 stock markets vs 200 CEC

25% economic boost, 5% influence boost vs 20% morale boost, no spies

A 25% general economic increase over your whole empire is pretty good, but so is a 20% morale boost and not having to worry about spies.

Hmm...heh, seriously, no idea which would be better. If the CEC works for you, especially at 4k+ bc per spy, then perhaps it is the better choice.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

What does the propaganda ability do?

I'm pretty sure the mail boy is talking about the invasion tactic Information Warfare. It costs 800 BC and flips a portion of the population to your side before the combat; low morale=more locals willing to sell out.

The point does remind me that "exploit" is often an eye of the beholder thing. I wouldn't think a spy on a farm wrong if I was playing Evil (which I seem never to do). And this morale tactic could be fun in a culture war as well as physical invasions.

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[quote]The tech stealing is a chance event related to your espionage level, and, IIRC, is not possible until you reach Advanced (the same level where you can view starbase stats and planet screens).[quote]

Just to let you know, I have received techs several times when at medium or high levels. I've even stolen 2 in a row, one each turn (what are the odds??!). I was just playing a mission in the DA campaigns a few hours ago and can confirm this 100%. Received a tech at medium level from Altarians.

Perhaps the campaign uses different rules, but I doubt it.

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Buying Spies. Ok I know that the cost of spies increases with each new one you buy but here is my question. If you have about 100 spies the next one should be a little pricey but if I loose ALL my spies, when I start to rebuild will the cost have decreased?

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Buying Spies. Ok I know that the cost of spies increases with each new one you buy but here is my question. If you have about 100 spies the next one should be a little pricey but if I loose ALL my spies, when I start to rebuild will the cost have decreased?

No. That means if you use 100 spies on one civ and then attack another, the new target may be starting fresh and out produce you like crazy.

Best to think that strategy through.

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I'm not talking about using 100 spies on a civlization. I know when they are in place and actually spying they are still my spies. I'm talking about going from a complete total of zero spies, say I had to use them all to beat that event which infests your civilization with spies. Once all my spies are gone well they be cheap again.

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The spies cost is based on how many have been produced, not how many you have. Found this out by getting the "spy on every planet in the galaxy" mega event. used up 20+ spies in one turn and making more was rediculous.

Scincerely,

Scintor@aol.com

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WIllythemailboy

Join Date 03/2006

+70

I'm not talking about using 100 spies on a civlization. I know when they are in place and actually spying they are still my spies. I'm talking about going from a complete total of zero spies, say I had to use them all to beat that event which infests your civilization with spies. Once all my spies are gone well they be cheap again.

No, they will still be just as expensive as before you lost the previous spies.

RE: "propaganda ability" - yeah, I always forget what that is called in the game.

@ cityman - The opportunity cost would have to be calculated per planet, as the benefits of either building would change depending on what other buildings and bonuses are on the planet. The stock market would be worth more on a 20b planet than it would on a 6b one. A CEC is worth even more on a morale bonus tile.

Also factor in production losses due to spies (remember, before you get the notice about a spy on your building, you've already lost a week's production). Between the direct cost of spies, the marginal loss of a stock market, and lost production, the balance comes out in favor of the CEC.

Note that this is true only in long games. Smaller maps can generally be finished before the break-even point would be reached for this. Likewise, if you don't use spies offensively very often, you may not lose enough to make this worthwhile.

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The spies cost is based on how many have been produced, not how many you have. Found this out by getting the "spy on every planet in the galaxy" mega event. used up 20+ spies in one turn and making more was rediculous.Scincerely,Scintor@aol.com

There's my answer. Thanks.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

remember, before you get the notice about a spy on your building, you've already lost a week's production

Not if you methodically (or luckily) check the Espionage tab or notice the icon on the main map, and have spies on hand to kill the enemies before you process the turn.

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