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Ziddim

Join Date 02/2006

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Espionage Behavior

I know this has been suggested before, but not being able to use spies on Minor races puts the player at a huge tactical dis-advantage compared to being pitted against major races, espically when you have a mega-event such as the Jagged Knife.

In a recent TA game, they took 30 of my planets. Not a big deal, but I use spys as scouts, to see which improvements and terrain types have been laid down. This is espically important when, out of hundreds of planets, I've forgotten which ones I've put GA and Wonders on. Being able to see the planet helps me decide if I want to spend my resources retaking it, and what sort of invasion tactics to use. In other words... This is a strategy game, and by removing this feature, for me, you've removed a level of strategy. It then becomes a brute-force issue of 'hit everything you see with as much as you have.'

Additionally, it's out of sync with the 'in character' elements of the game. While it may not make sense to waste spies on sabatoge for minor races, in these rare circumstance, such as a Jagged Knife incursion, it's just plain stupid not to. When some race, minor or not, takes over 1/4th of your empire, you're going to bear all your weight down on it. When the Drath only have one planet, which I can spy on all I want, and I can't spy on a 60 planet strong nation, something's wierd. Also, as supreme-uber-poobah of my civilization, I'd like to think that I could stick a spy on a minor's planet over the objection of my trusted, though tactically inept C3 protocol droid.

Hell, while we're at it... It'd be nice to have the option of disintigrating my robot advisor, just like a Hutt. Just an option on any screen where he appears, with a nice satisfying animation of him being blasted to bits, or jettisoned into a furnace, or crushed. Perhaps you could have the option to use him as a one-shot ammunition from your flagship, or have him refurbished as a genisis torpedo to terraform a planet. In short, I want to be able to force-choke my councilors. (Guesses at my alignment, anyone? Suffice to say, I can't party with paladins.)

Anyway...

I like the Mega-events. I even don't mind the Jagged Knife. I love the challenge presented. I'm not opposed to arbitrarily changing the rules of engagement in the middle of the game, so long as they don't fly in face of common ense.

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May I heartily second the opinion on minor races and espionage. Especially since the foreign relations screen still says you should spy on them...

And I admit to really liking the second suggestion as well...

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Third that, if it really matters... but,

- I want some type of Spy-base(s) on any PQ1 planets, by choice.
- I also would love a true sabotage option; for inflicting some damages (which CAN be repaired like ships in space) to surface buildings.
- And, the infamously insane Infiltration skills; indirectly, we already have that one. BUT, make it more powerful or evident. Reports and stuff are fun to receive, although i sometimes wished for an interactive menu which gives options such as...
- Twart research project X.
- Steal trade ship route output Y.
- Enforce revolt conditions and auto-flipping boost for a cost.
- Subdue, confuse, PILOT enemy warships and control weapons aboard!
- Commando operations; JTF spying armadas for the ultimate Invasion tactic which actually spares the transport and finally, makes it a re-usable device.
- Lastly but important enough, i suppose; a hero which gains experience through missions!

- Zyxpsilon.

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The espionage is fun, but it doesn't seem possible to devote enough of my resources to it to get enough spies working. My agents last at most two or three turns and are then nullified, no matter what. This makes it impossible to get the increased level research, but those reports are so confusing they are not that much use to me anyways.

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I seldom get beyond medium on the espionage scale. that tells me where ships are bound and gets me their economic summery. That is all I have ever found useful in that games I play. I have never gotten anything else useful from espionage. I know that you can theoretically steal techs, but I have never seen it happen.

I also love to play huge games, and in such games, I cannot get enough spies built up to use offensively without getting the "spy for every planet" mega event.

Scincerely,

Scintor@aol.com

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The espionage is fun, but it doesn't seem possible to devote enough of my resources to it to get enough spies working. My agents last at most two or three turns and are then nullified, no matter what. This makes it impossible to get the increased level research, but those reports are so confusing they are not that much use to me anyways.

It is very possible to get all the way to "Advanced" espionage level against opponents, provided you are willing to pay for it. One of the ways I've found to have enough spies to make espionage more useful is to start espionage spending on the very first turn. You may have a half dozen or more spies just waiting to get deployed by the time you even find an opponent's planet.

In my current game doing this got me to High espionage level against the first race I came in contact with before they nullified even one of my agents. I then moved all of the spies (plus a few new ones I'd gotten while doing that) to the next race I had come in contact with and got to High with them while they only nullified one spy.

It does help having a espionage bonus, so if you play with a race that comes with a bonus to espionage, and then put additional points into it, you'll be quite good at it. This isn't completely necessary though; I recently played a game as the Terrans with 0 bonus to espionage and was at advanced espionage level against all 6 of my opponents before entering into any conflict with any of them (late mid-game on a huge map)

You can actually watch to see how much your opponents are spending on espionage; don't expect your spies to last too long if you are sending them one at a time against a race which is spending a lot more than you are. But if you do your spieing early and send the spies in as a large clump, you can usually get them in and out before the AI ramps up its spending enough to nullify more than one or two. Once the espionage level against a race is high enough, you can see everything they are doing without having active spies.

The point is that espionage can be very handy, at the very least you can use single spies to spy out planets at will using the "place" command, and just not leave them on the planets...so you will never lose them. Espionage as part of an overall strategy that you pursue aggressively, it can tell you everything there is to know about your opponents, weaken them, and steal their techs. And it does work, you just have to be willing to pay for what you want to get out of it. If its just an afterthought you don't want to spend much of your income on...of course it won't get you as much.

BTW, I agree with OP, we should be able to use spies against minor races if we want to. It is baffling to me that the game takes this choice out of the players hands and just says "you don't want to do that". Yes.. sometimes I do, thank you very much.

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Hi there,

I hope that the spy feature will be reworked in the final TA version. Currently, I place my spies, and get an information that they are nullified in the next turn. I get this everytime I place a spy, so I do not do it anymore. The money can be better spend on research for weapons technology, muhahaha.

Anyhow, a reworked spy option would be nice. I think there should be "sleepers", i.e. passive spies that integrate into their society and transmit informations to their "beloved relatives" from the Intelligence Agency every now and then. These passive spies should have a low chance of being discovered. Active spies should be able to steal technologies, sabotage things etc. and should run the risk of being discovered and annihilated. They should be much more useful than now in order for me to spend money for them. And I think spying on minor races should be okay aswell, because perhaps they have a weapon technology one wants, and if they are discovered and the minor race declares war for it, oopps, my troop transport must have had the wrong landing coordinates when killing everythin g on their world. So minor race spying should be featured aswell.

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It does help having a espionage bonus, so if you play with a race that comes with a bonus to espionage, and then put additional points into it, you'll be quite good at it.

I was under the impression that those espionage bonuses only allow you to devote more of your income to making spies. I think the normal cap is like 25%. (?) If an opponent has a spy it can neutralize yours the same if you have a bonus or not.

The reason we may not be able to spy on minors is that their AI does not build spies, so it wouldnt be fair that they cant fight back or nullify your spies. It is interesting that you just dont know what you'll get when you invade a minor. Did they ever build an economy capital? I hate when thy don't.

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I was under the impression that those espionage bonuses only allow you to devote more of your income to making spies. I think the normal cap is like 25%. (?) If an opponent has a spy it can neutralize yours the same if you have a bonus or not.

That's not correct. The spending cap is 25% no matter what your espionage bonus is. Based on experience, it seems that the bonus either increases the rate at which you gain espionage "levels" on opponents where you have active spies, or maybe makes the spies cheaper so you get them faster. I'm not really sure, but I do know it certainly seems like I get to High espionage ratings alot faster when playing a race with substantial espionage bonus. I've never actually kept track of whether it was due to having more spies in the field or not though.

I never use one spy at a time, by the way, and it seems that the people who don't find espionage useful are doing exactly that. I do not place any spies into an enemies territory until I can throw at least a half dozen at them at once. Gauranteed to get some use out of them before all of them are neutralized doing it that way. Until late in the game, at which time it seems the AI has a lot of excess spies just waiting to neutralize you. This is why I get all of my espionage done early.

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Wow, glad to see this post finally got some attention

Yea, I don't feel like I'm asking for a major change or anything in terms of espionage. I actually like the system alot, and I'm fairly good at using it. I guess if I could change one other thing about the system, it would be that the AI use it more effectively/aggressively.

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Hold it, not sure about this but here goes anyway;

Going from DL to DA, haven't we lost the 'espionage' sliders in the Foreign/Report(s) screen where we could adjust the level of spying individually?
Wasn't this feature pulled off to make room for the true Spies placing schema?

Cuz, i swear, i have absolutely no way to control HOW my espionage points gets spent on race X... and the only time i ever got a pop-up telling me about getting some info (lowly levels) is when a war was going on against the race in question.

Correct me if i'm wrong.

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Hold it, not sure about this but here goes anyway;Going from DL to DA, haven't we lost the 'espionage' sliders in the Foreign/Report(s) screen where we could adjust the level of spying individually?Wasn't this feature pulled off to make room for the true Spies placing schema?

You are correct, your spending now buys you actual spies which you must place.

Cuz, i swear, i have absolutely no way to control HOW my espionage points gets spent on race X... and the only time i ever got a pop-up telling me about getting some info (lowly levels) is when a war was going on against the race in question.Correct me if i'm wrong.

Your control is only in terms of how many active agents you place against each enemy and exactly where you place them (planet and specific improvement on that planet). You still get info on the various foreign relations tabs, with what you have access to determined by your espionage "level" against that opponent. You gain these levels, Low, Medium, High and Advanced, based on active spies being placed against the enemy. More agents and/or longer time will get you higher espionage levels. War, as far as I can tell, has absolutely nothing to do with it. I get to at least High before going to war against any enemy usually.

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So, indirectly, the placement of any Spy (at any time) is a sort of DL activation of the previously available espionage slider, right? There is no "clear" way to verify this unless the popups start to rollout about race X or Y, etc - though.
And, i was preciously keeping those agents handy waiting for the opportunity to nullify others while i could have been receiving precious info on AIs! Darn, i must revise my espionage tactics and start dropping a few if i want to get these details. Otherwise, looks like i never would.

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The espionage is fun, but it doesn't seem possible to devote enough of my resources to it to get enough spies working. My agents last at most two or three turns and are then nullified, no matter what. This makes it impossible to get the increased level research, but those reports are so confusing they are not that much use to me anyways.

Just as a strategy tip: I too was having your problem, and tried some things that seem to work.

1) Start building spys from turn 1
2) Do not "shotgun" your spies --pick an AI and stick with them until you get to level you want
3) Save up 8 or 9 spies before begining you espionage operation. This is also useful as occasionally the AI picks on you and you need to nullify its spies
4) Pay attention to the frequency of your spies being nullified, if it happens every 3 turns make sure to bring them home every two. The AI seems to use its spies as they are produced; so if you take away its need to nullify,the Ai may use its spy on another AI.

So this part might be an intentional design of the programmers.

P.S. I hate not being able to spy on minors.

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So, indirectly, the placement of any Spy (at any time) is a sort of DL activation of the previously available espionage slider, right? There is no "clear" way to verify this unless the popups start to rollout about race X or Y, etc - though.
And, i was preciously keeping those agents handy waiting for the opportunity to nullify others while i could have been receiving precious info on AIs! Darn, i must revise my espionage tactics and start dropping a few if i want to get these details. Otherwise, looks like i never would.

Yes, placement of the spies is how you get espionage on your opponents. (Though you will still occasionally get a tech from them as the spoils of war when conquering their planets). The more spies you have placed against an opponent, the faster your espionage ranking against them will go up.

As I said before, and the previous poster also states, your best bet, if you want to use espionage, is to start spending on espionage from turn 1, and to place your spies in groups against the same opponent instead of firing one a time at various foes. The former makes espionage very useful, the latter just turns your efforts into flushed money.

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One thing I would like to see is the Super Spy ability quarter the build time of the counter-espionage center (similar to how super hive quarters the cost of factories). I find it difficult to use spies offensively on higher difficulty levels if there are any number of opponents because I've got to keep burning them up defensively. If the counter-espionage center, for Super Spys, were cheap enough to be built everywhere, then you could use all of your spys offensively and focus them on a single opponent at a time. It may be a viable strategy. Anyone agree or disagree?

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It may be a viable strategy. Anyone agree or disagree?

Totally agree. Not much use starting with a building that's far too expensive/time consuming to actually build anywhere but the homeworld in the early game.

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Wasn't another spy change supposed to be in TA???

I thought they were going to change it so that you could spy without disrupting a planetary improvement, such as spying to steal a tech, divert finances, weaken diplomacy, destroy ships, etc.

Maybe this was simply a request that didn't get implemented.

Too bad, it would have made spying much more varied, interesting, and useful.

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