Race Balancing Issues in TA » Forum Post by Boogly

If your complaining about too much cash, just wait till you tryout the Korx!

I'm still in the middle of a game playing with 9 civs on Tough difficulty. My economy is now limitless due to their incredible trading ability and their new ability to profit off other civ's wars. I think I'm making about an additional +200bcs/turn with war profiting alone. It's gotten to the point where I can bribe all the civs with a tech or two and make them go to war, putting cash in my pocket.

For trade, I make about +250bc/turn. I have a majority of my traders going to a class 21 planet. I have built the Galactic Bazaar Achievement which gives me the +50% to trade, plus the additional +50% racial trait. I have three economic starbases established each giving a +85% trade bonuses with a total of +255% trade bonus on all of my trade routes. Together, starbases included, I gain an additional +355% to profits PER ROUTE. There's nothing stopping me from build several more either.

I then have my taxes. I typically have planets specialized when I play and I have a class 12 as my economic capital. With only the population at 10bil, that planet produces +100bc/turn alone, which is can hardly compare to other games I've played. My total taxes are about a +200bc/turn... and I only have 4 planets.

All these added together give me about +700bc/turn and I'm not even done with my first year. My expenses are only around 400bc and my taxes are lower than 30%.

It's not hard to make money at all as the Korx. I however really do like their Mercenary Achievement to get the 5% from warring civs and then supplying arms to them to make sure that their wars last a long time... putting only more money in my pocket.

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I haven't had the economic woes you had with the Yor, even without having the Federalist party. True, I did max my econ stat at creation. Perhaps it was just that I started trading outside my own tech tree with the humans to get some of those additional econ bonuses? (still, didn't get efficiency 5 yet, so I'm really only 5% ahead of you, before considering that I don't have your 20% bonus from federalists)

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Another point is that rather than nerfing a given race, the others need to be stronger.

From what I read that's the idea of TA. Everybodies better at doing their thing.

So in a way your post turns into the Yor are weak, and/or the AIs are not playing strongly.

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Another point is that rather than nerfing a given race, the others need to be stronger.
So in a way your post turns into the Yor are weak, and/or the AIs are not playing strongly.

I agree wholeheartedly, but the benchmark HAS to be the AIs. As it is, they are unable to stand vs. humans and Krynn.

In response to comments about the Yor not having economic difficulty, I'd suggest playing a bit more because if you havent had to research the final tech on efficiency, you definately don't quite understand yet. I'd like to be able to play the Yor with tech trading off and still have a chance.

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I didn't have as much trouble with Yor as you did, though it was really tight at the beginning until I was able to build the advanced charging stalks to get my population up to a decent level. Once I started conquering some worlds my cash woes completely disappeared. On a separate note, did anyone who played the Yor notice they don't have a way to upgrade mining starbases or economy starbases (besides trade)? I am thinking this is an beta oversight because it would be a pain in the butt to trade for the entire xeno factory line every game, but I am not sure.

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econundrum1

Join Date 04/2007

+36

I have to say I had no Financial problems with the Yor, The Korx actually gave me the worest financial woes in the early game until I established trade and got a few wars going.

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I agree with the premise that some races are better than others but look at the simple truth behind this entire post that no-one ever seems to address.

You are an idiot if you don't max out Econ bonus on any race.
Most races (Krynn possibly an exception but you could still make the argument for) should max out Morale bonus.

How is this an interesting design decision? These bonuses obviously cost too few points, because anyone who wants to win or get a good metaverse score is obviously going to pick them.

Econ/Morale bonuses need to cost substantially more points, insofar as they are allocated to both passive/chosen extra point bonuses.

The Galciv2 economy is simply too unforgiving to allow for any other choices. The only time I don't max my econ/morale bonus is when I'm looking for a truly challenging game. I look at the +20% PQ bonus costing 8 points and laugh compared to what the +30% econ bonus costs.

Perhaps one day the galciv2 economy structure will actually be overhauled, but the way that it stands not putting points into those two stats is simply raising your difficulty level by choice. I really do love this game but the economy/morale function totally undermines any kind of "choice", which is what these kind of games are all about. Money is ultimately king, because even if you can produce a powerful fleet quickly, it makes no difference if you cant sustain it.

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I had similiar experiences with the Yor. The economy almost killed me, until I managed to trade some eco techs with other races (banks & stock exchanges saved my day). I consider myself a fairly seasoned player, but the Yor gave me the hardest time so far. Still, this game being a product provided by the company entertaining the best customer relations in the industry, it's only going to be a matter of time till balance gets fixed.

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Econ/Morale bonuses need to cost substantially more points, insofar as they are allocated to both passive/chosen extra point bonuses.

I agree this should be looked into further. From my experiences, Econ. bonuses still trump everything else. I hope GC2 will eventually get to the point that the player has to really struggle over the decision of whether or not to choose these bonuses. As it stands now, it is a bit of a no-brainer.

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On a separate note, did anyone who played the Yor notice they don't have a way to upgrade mining starbases or economy starbases (besides trade)?

It's a known issue. I think the devs were talking about making the techs for those starbase modules separate, or at least include them in the other race's tech of equal value. Those module came from the stock manufacturing/econ tech line which the Yor don't have now.

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Wow...That New Guys Recon on the Korx was accurate. Still, excess of cash doesnt seem to perplex me much when my mantra is greed. I am playing the largest galaxy size, and fortunately there are plenty of things to want (a maxed out starbase or two in every sector, for instance).

While victory is not in doubt, I am feeling less competetive when I play the Korx....its more like the universe is my personal playground, and, rather than simply struggle to survive, it is a pleasure just to maintain. My personal victory condition will be to end the game with all the realestate and a billion credits in the bank...lol. I did find the Korx a bit slow out of the starting gate, but once they get set up, its like Nirvana with fountains of cash.

Are the Korx balanced? Good question. One point to consider is that trade can be a fragile thing, particularly in the beginning before the military is built up, or the invulnerability for mini-freighters is researched. I suspect I might feel the challenge of playing the Korx more accutely on a smaller map...but in Gigantic, I have had plenty of room to set up. I also am having an ethical dilema on calling down the nerf bat on what looks to be my favorite race thus far (whethor or not it is actually needed, Im having trouble being objective).

How about some feedback on some other Civs? Iconians, Drath, or Torians, anyone? Drengin or Korath? We all quite simply lack the time to play them all. Its cool to read the thoughts of the experienced...

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The Drath have a horrid start with the -20% pop growth to overcome. Once they are up and running though, they rake in the dough more than the Korx from War Mongering....and they have the super ability to cause those wars....

Iconians need a real kick in the tail for econ as their buildings are maintenance hogs. Their ships however are fairly formidable.

Torians, you can't keep a happy frog-person down. Damn buggers get a 50% morale building (1 per planet). Not out of the gate, but darn quick enough if you want it badly.

Btw, "bc" stands for "billion credits". So, in actuality you want to walk away with 1 quintillion credits? I think I got that unit of measure right...1 billion billions...

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On the "are the Korx balanced?" question...

I have mixed feelings about that balance issue. From the player perspective, I wouldn't mind having a choice of easy, medium, and hard races to play. I like games that give the player lots of choices, and that's just one more way to tweak the game to personal taste. Sometimes I want a real challenge, other times I just want to relax and cruise my way to victory. An "easy" race is also a good way to try out the next hardest difficulty level, without getting killed.

But that's from the player's perspective. On the AI side, I don't want to see one race consistently dominating every game, and others consistently losing. So there has to be some balance there. I don't play Metaverse games, but it probably wouldn't be fun to have one race always being the best choice there either.

Anyway, first impressions:

The Drath are very difficult for a mediocre (mostly Tough level) player like myself. That slow start is a killer. They're easily bankrupted or swamped by other races, unless you get aggressive with planet captures fairly early. OTOH, the AI doesn't seem to have much trouble running the Drath in my current game (I'm playing Krynn), so maybe they're fine as the "challenge" race that only the best players can handle.

The Krynn seem pretty-well balanced. The influence is a bit overpowering, but then that's their core ability and it probably shouldn't be nerfed unless we're seeing the AI consistently winning as the Krynn.

I didn't have as much trouble as others reported here with the Yor economy, but maybe that's because I'm playing Tough level, I always tech trade, and I always set up trade routes as soon as I can to help smooth out the economy.

The Iconians seem fine too, as long as you don't expand too fast and get ahead of the maintenance costs. At the moment, they're my favorite new TA race... maybe just because their tech tree is so different.

I haven't tried the other TA races yet.

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Alstein

Join Date 07/2004

+55

The only race I find underpowered at the moment as the Drengin. Everyone else seems fine, though I think the Iconians have a bit too much. Their 80% is better then most races 100%.

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So what is up with the relative balance of the new races as the game now stands? Before we get started, everyone should bear in mind that this is a single player game and that game settings can be tweaked to give every race a challenging game. I already read one rant where a fellow was flaming that his race was "ruined." With the new expansion still in beta, the author of one thread was already threatening to throw in the towel...sheesh! The devs are all over these threads, so...stay cool and make some valid points and, who knows? We might be able to hash a few things out that actually influence the final product as far as race balance goes.

I have only played three races in games all the way to completion. My games for TA beta have all tended to be larger galaxy sizes, minimum number of stars, max number of habitable planets. My findings thus far:

Humans- My overall impression is that this race is vastly overpowered, especially with intelligent use of customization points. Taking the federalist government, maxing out econonomics and research with custom points and putting the rest into morale have yielded results where the main dilema is not IF I am going to win, but HOW, and this all fairly early in the game. Typically as soon as I find a larger world (14 plus) and get it completely built up as my research capital, I have such a commanding lead that victory becomes a forgone conclusion. To top this off, I usually dont have to build anything I really want, because cash is all over the place. And this on crippling difficulty level. My opinion is that cash comes way too easily, and not just from the way I spend my points (which I have planned for), but rather, the cash comes way too easily from the tech tree. My opinion is, that with humans possessing so much innate versatility as to how victory is going to be achieved, the income improvements in the tech tree need to be slowed down. Of course, we cant take away banks or stock exchanges from humans, but we can and probably should, increase their research costs. Another possibility is removal (sorry monkeys) of beginning bonuses +10 morale and + 10 research. I don't want to bag on anyone's favorite race; Im just looking for some good gaming, and I think humans could stand to be powered down a bit.

Krynn- These folks have a very nice set up. Kudos to the dev teams for really bringing some unique individuality to this race. My overall impression, however, is that they are currently also vastly overpowered. Why? Again, cash all over the place. (And this with pacifist political party, not federalist). The moral bonuses and moral boosting tech make these folks so fanatical they dont blink an eye when you tax the bejesus out of them. The result is hordes of cash all over the place. Why? Conceptually, I am fairly certain that the cash is justified by the exorbitant costs of espionage. The problem, it seems to me, is that the excess of cash generated by all the moral boosts does not HAVE TO BE allocated to espionage, which buys this race all kinds of versatility to use the cash any way that it wants. One possible solution is to slightly nerf the morale bonuses and techs and in return reduce the espionage costs for this race, or find some other way to see that the excess of money is allocated to espionage automatically... And remember, before you flame, I like these guys too, I just found it way too easy to win (for me, a mediocre strategy gamer) on crippling difficulty level. I think the key to balancing these guys lies in examination and adjustment of the relationship between the cash (cult tithes) and espionage.

The Yor- The most problematic of all the races I have used extensively thus far because my overall impression is that these folks are vastly underpowered. Why? Lack of, you guessed it, cash. On crippling difficulty, I took Federalist political party,max economic custom points, max moral boost, and put any leftovers in social and military production. I micro managed a colony rush very efficiently (with a bit of luck...at no time going below 96 percent production capacity) and my economy still tanks 18-20 weeks after researching the final efficiency center upgrade. And this with doing EVERYTHING I can for my economy (harmony crystals, survey ships, nabbing morale and econ starbases, trade, etc. etc.). To balance things out, often half of my planets are charging stalks...which does help somewhat, but...my main point is...I have done EVERYTHING from start to finish to baby the economy and it STILL CRASHES. My only recourse or hope of victory is to trade for technology not native to the Yor, which makes it suicide to ever consider turning off the tech trading. The result is a race that, while very unique and well-concieved, has completely lost the versatility to splurge some customization points on anything that doesn't serve economy or do anything that doesn't directly serve economy the second the option becomes available. With no hope for the Yor of ever getting a cultural victory, not much more hope for achieving a diplimatic victory, and handicaps in research prolonging a technological victory, my opinion is that this race needs and deserves to have its war machine funded. The solution? Very simple- Add two or three more efficiency center upgrades to keep them going mid-late game.

Thats all I have for now. I have initial impressions on other races, some good and some not so good, but I feel it would be unfair to comment on them until I have played them more. I hope the Korx fared well, as they are one of my faves. I am VERY interested to know others thoughts/opinions on how the new races play so please post. Anyone play the Korx much yet?

Yors Truly,
Boogly

Sure. You say 2 overpowered, 1 under, of what you've tried. I'm here to tell you that they ain't overpowered (they are supposed to be)

As Draginol himself mentioned in a post about the new Arceans, these races are supposed to be much more powerful than DA ones. (the one where he talked about Baldur's gate and the Stellar Forge).

However, you are quite right that a couple races are not overpowered enough to match with their peers. I haven't played them, but from what I hear the Yor and Drengin are ... not so awesome.

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PS- For those who are having "No problem" with the Yor, I like to play with tech trading off and no minor races for max challenge. As it is, that is simply not feasible.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2420

We're not really inclined to nerf races but rather make the others more powerful which we will as we go through and play them more.

Moreover, we need to find interesting and useful things for players to spend their money on.

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(Cough)Enhanced AI and Diplomacy(Cough)

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Played the Iconians. Wow! I think these folks are the most improved from DA where nothing really made them stand out. Hordes of low firepower, mega-hitpoint, regenerating ships make this race very fun for the player.

Are they balanced? Well, with careful decision making, I think the above average player will probably find the Iconians very capable and great fun. With the high maintenance cost buildings, the chance exists to fall into the red zone economically. I think the key is the fact that the economic buildings themselves are zero maintenance...so, if you take a new planet and dont know what to build, economics buildings are a good choice.

For players, Id say the Iconians seem balanced vs. the AI...BUT...I worry about the AIs ability to ever play them effectively. It just seems like Iconians require a careful balancing act and a lot of thought that I wonder if the AI will ever be able to replicate. These concerns seem to bear out in games when I am playing another race; when the AI runs the Iconians, they never seem to do anything but get stomped. Anyone see the AI run the Iconians effectively yet? Because I sure haven't.

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First game and I am playing with the Yor on painfull. The first thing i noticed was the immense potential to have a good eco with those stalks, recruitment centers and eco crystals. Get them to multiply

I am making so much money lol am drowning in it. What did suprise me was to see the clan race with a 11hp 236 missle attack

WTF is that? lol! For the first time I actually builded anti missles on my ships hehe. I am loving this expansion and hey it is still beta

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I found the Iconians rather weak myself, every time either the Drath, or the Terrans can outgun, and out defend, and most of all out hitpoint my ships when i have all miniaturization techs researched, all organic hull techs done, all weapon techs done in every single weapon tree, and every single defense tree. Yet somehow the Terrans & Drath magically find themselves capable of doing ships with 5000 mass driver attack, 1000 mass driver defense while the max i can cram on my ships is 3000 missile attack, and 100 mass driver defense.

Not to mention, the constantly crashing economy doesn't help at all, especially when i cannot build the Galactic Privateer so every time i go to war(I've been through the tech tree, theres no tech in the Iconian Techtree that allows me to build the Galactic Privateer anymore, i must steal or trade for it) that miniscule economy i have managed to build up gets blown to pieces by a military thats in all ways better than mine, and their economy outdoes mine even when i grab all economic bonuses, all economic resources.

And they can out manufacture me, cause i cannot make the full use of my industrial buildings cause my economy falls flat on its face every 20 turns. Even when i steal the Federalist goverment tech from someone my economy still crashes every time i go to war, and them i'm doomed for the rest of the game. The Iconian military is pathetic, and most of all, their hitpoint modules are not good at all. I could steal modules that gave me the same hitpoint advantange, for less hull space. And afaik they even costed slightly less! The Iconians do not have a single thing going for them. Not even taxing the hell out of your population helps, i can run taxes at 80% and still have my economy fall flat on its face when someone declares war on me. Everything is high maintenance for the Iconians, the weapons, the defenses, the hitpoint modules, and most of all the manufacturing and research buildings!

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You know what I would like to see? A spectator mode, where every single civ is run by the AI. It would be like John Horton Conway's "Game of Life" cellular automaton, except with lasers and neat special effects....

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Played the Drath on Masochistic and got stomped. Had a heck of a good time, though because I would say of all the races, the Drath have the best chance to turn a losing game around late game. Some high speed spore ships eventually got my homeworlds, but then the Torians surrendered to me and it was game on all over again.

It seems that mysticism is their theme with techs like "mysticism" (luck) and dark forces (or some such thing, which is a 30% weapons boost). Another great technology they have allows you to improve planet quality by an average of three new squares per planet. War profiteering also is a MASSIVE income boost once folks start going to war with eachother, so get it as soon as you see declarations of war happening.

I am currently replaying the same game, same settings, and dominating. The key is micromanaging the colony rush and getting all the pop bonuses followed by economics early on. One strategy that worked well was hitting new planets with three or four colony ships, emptying them out, and recycling them to fill up again at the homeworld (and repeat). This allowed me to have just a few BC shy of balanced world income to start, and gave folks a healty population to start breeding (to help compensate for the -20 pop growth).

It is imperative that folks dont go hog bogging for worlds (buisiness as usual) with the Drath. You just cant colonize a world unless you are ready for it (of course 16+ worlds are worth an exception). I also have found that starting in a corner somewhere is NOT the disadvantage it usually is with other races, as long as there are SOME decent worlds to colonize, the Drath have a real shot.

On the question of balance...hmmm...more and more I am thinking of the fellows comment (above) wherein he said he supports different tiers of difficulty for player skill. I am coming around to agreeing with him. Viewed thus, the question of balance becomes a mute point, other than from the AI's being able to take turns doing well (as it is, the Korath just seem to stomp every game. But of all the races I've played, I rate them thus:

Beginner/easy to win: Krynn, Human
Intermediate/challenging: Korx, Iconians
Advanced/difficult: Drath and Yor (still havent been able to keep their economy from tanking without alien tech).

To the fellow who despairs of Iconians economy tanking: The key is in the econ buildings themselves--they are the only buildings with zero maintenance costs. You can have multiple tier two econ buildings on a world even when you have researched the third tier (only one per world of those allowed).

Sure would like to see a decent write up on the Torians...anyone?

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If i just mass economy buildings, i can't take any advantage from my manufacturing, and research cause most of my worlds would be covered with Merchant Emporiums then. Even the AI just covers its worlds with Dream Complexes, robot farms, and Merchant Emporiums even then its economy tanks when it goes to war.

Sure, i can make my economy not tank, but that involves dropping any other advantage my civ has, and maintaining a military of 1 defender ship per planet max, or the huge maintenance costs for those ships just eat what economy i have alive. All my planets would literally be covered with dream complexes and robotic farms, and merchant emporiums. And their lack of diplomacy techs makes maintaining a small military most perilous, cause then everybody just hates them due to "weak military", and "poor diplomacy", and usually "close borders" even if their on the opposite side of the galaxy..

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Well, it sounds as if you want to like the Iconians, coz your still hanging in there

What do you see in them? It sounds as if you are a bit more experienced with them than I...I did well on a medium map with them largely because I got the jump during the colonization phase. You've got me curious enough now to revisit them...as soon as I conquer an immense galaxy with the Drath, which isn't going to be any time soon

-I suppose you are running federalist with econ bonuses maxed? With extra points thrown into morale?
-Are you quite sure the solution to your economic woes doesn't lie somewhere hidden in their tech tree?
-Taking the time and trouble to get trade set up?

Please dont take my questions the wrong way...I don't want to imply you're incompetant, just running down the checklist making sure the bases are covered.

I also plan on revisiting the Yor, because some folks in this thread swear they are fine...I have my doubts. I don't think one should have to rely on alien technology or exploiting minor races to count a race as viable/playable, but I am going to give them another shot to see if I am missing anything.

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